dalsingh101

Aj kal da Gurdwara committee wallah in the diaspora.

I'd say the best solution is a psychological or mental one. Sikhs are minorities everywhere. The thing we need to develop is a healthy, progressive, robust identity that isn't easily dislodged anywhere, and one that doesn't get embroiled in petty penducentric conflicts or start arse kissing. One that expands steadily and absorbs outsiders without being offensive about it. Whilst at the same time increasing our physical strength and presence in a tactful way. This is about developing the right mindset foremost. Once we have that we don't have to worry about being absorbed by anyone, whites, Hindus or sullay.

As time passes faiths do start to 'grow out' of their contexts (ours being an Indic one). Christians did it with Judaism, Buddhism with Hinduism. Now Sikhs are doing it, we are getting predictably hostile reactions to it. There are a lot of factors at play under the surface though, ranging the whole span of political, economic, ethnic and cultural. To be honest, I think for a lot of people most vocal in this fissure, the last thing this is about is religion despite it being packaged like that. It's more about power, money and insularity. Hindus aren't about to relinquish Panjab any time soon for obvious reasons. I thought you espoused the idea that we had different characteristics/habits along caste lines anyway? By the above definition a middle class coconut 'Asian' and his white neighbour would be members of the same 'race'. Categorising people as belonging to the same race simply due to common preferences, interests etc. or perceived characteristics is pretty weak. Especially given the ephemeral nature of these things. That doesn't really stand up when you consider an Amritdhari from Bihar and a recent white convert in America can be equally called Khalsa. Their 'history' would be markedly different, as would their nationality and geographical distribution. Anyway, can you contribute anything more than the same old tired arguments? You ever think it's time for a change from your crusty, worn out type thinking? It doesn't seem to be helping Sikhs much?

http://www.answers.com/topic/advaita-vedanta

Plus does Badal pull the Akal Takhat strings these days anyway?

Likes: No priests to have to suck up to. Langar always available. No need to engage in forced/contrived socialising. Beautiful body of scripture. Growing body of quality literature related to faith. Gurdwara open late (some of them anyway). A relative degree of freedom of interpretation. Cosmopolitan outlook. No brainwashing. Individualised spiritual experience. Dislike: No pastoral support for the less fortunate. No real drive/will to impart language and principles of faith to the youth in a profound, meaningful way that improves their characters. Very shallow understandings of mystical side of faith - usually reduced to external symbols and ritualistic prayer and Panjabcentric politics. Clannish mentality. No attempt to embed principles of faith into wider community i.e. Sikh principles are not used as a model for our society rather backward Panjabi ones are used. Constant failure to be critically reflective. Casteism and nepotism. Rule of the jungle (strongest wins). Anti-intellectualism. Fortune of faith tied to agricultural scenario in Panjab and the resultant penducentrism. Inability of males to live up to martial heritage despite bigging it up all the time. Hordes of slutty females. Cowardice in face of external aggression. A plethora of spoilt brats. Nerds. Evil step mothers with Queen Bee syndrome. Sycophancy to whites past and present. Gurdwaras run by profiteers and the corrupt. Bullshit Panjab politics defining the quom. Myopic localised thinking. Rampant materialism. Possible solutions: A more youth centred approach heavily invested in. A well thought out, absolutely inclusive, education plan that expands children's minds along Gurmat principles. This should focus on alerting and warning youth of problems of narrow and backward mindedness that inflict panthic thinking today. Provisions for older Sikhs who are not knowledgeable about faith to learn in an appropriate environment (i.e. the 30+). A heavily invested in drive to ensure a high level of literacy in Panjabi/Gurmukhi by every Sikh globally akin to Ataturks drive to implement his modern Turkish on his people. Complete overhaul of SGPC and Akali Dal with a new transparent system to oversee Gurdwara management in Panjab (and outside). Extra vigilance to identify and punish sly casteists in the panth. Urbanisation and globalisation of Sikhi parchaar to reflect the increasing urbanisation of the panth. Top grade Sikh universities. Development of strong modern Sikh economy. Checks and balances against nepotism and casteism in all institutes. Promotion and use of a meritocracy whilst also striving to level the playing field for those that have been shat on for a long while. Severe punishments to backward apnay who try and drag the panth down with their myopic actions and thinking. The development and implementation of a modern strategic plan to push the community forward in the 21st century that is developed by forward thinking, progressive, intelligent, well educated Sikhs (i..e not plump, self centred jathedars from a pend with no duniyadari).

Just vote with your feet. That will save you wasting your own time which you could use trying to understand your own faith to a greater depth. Personally, I follow the maxim that if you don't like the company you find yourself in, move and go find other more positive circles to mix in. Simple. I'm not bothered with inter forum clashes. Seen it all before. Is a waste of time and energy. As you said in your own words:

Behold! The cavemen of the Panjab!

Have you gone bonkers? What has this got to do with Sikh-Hindu relations as discussed in the last few posts?

Behold! The all knowing peasant hath spoken.... Khalsa was/is not a race you pendu.

Where in India you live may play a part in what you personally experience? Are you in Panjab?

Okay but if we use the example at hand of astronomy, then it appears as if the western method does have it's advantages too. Although I would agree that the western approaches has too strong a tendency towards reductionalism and positivitism that leads to skewed perceptions in particular fields, especially those concerned with human spiritual belief, behaviour/emotion - sometimes it is a an exceptionally useful tool. They can also get carried away with this and start to project in 'weird' directions. With astronomy, the western 'object orientated' approach explains a lot in a way that makes good sense. Instead of conceptualising the moon as a mother or the sun as a god, we have a whole broken down into it's composite sub structures. Spheres - Solar systems - Galaxies - The cosmos Now, only if we could establish what lies beyond those vortexes at the centre of spiral galaxies..... I guess these are modern conceptualisations and I shouldn't be surprised if they aren't modeled in older Indic terminology.

The OP seems to have misread the context of the post he quoted. It seems to be directed towards the people who rushed the Gurdwara. I think he is referring to such people's actions as destructive to Sikhi when he says. "there will be NO REST until the Kirpan...the Dastaar...and thus SIKHI...is eliminated for GOOD." The other issues with being anti-DG and pro-Darshan are separate issues to this one. On the issue of idiots storming temples mob handed and involving police in Gurdwara politics I would agree that it is serious detrimental to Sikhs.

The only people to blame in all of this is our own. The way I see it, unless we get self critical in a way that causes change in our communities behaviour, this stuff is going to happen - be that sooner or later. So we have to deal with this at some stage. Sikhs have a tendency to turn disagreements into silly fracas like wherever they go. Be that Canada, US or UK. In any case the kakkar becoming a small and harmless symbol is a relatively new phenomena. Originally it was a proper shaster.

We've been here before. Please go to the site and challenge them there instead of sitting here and doing chugglian without confronting the people involved. Last thing we want is another bullshit online forum 'war'. There are certain phudus who just live for that kind of stuff and we don't want to get them all excited and frothing at the mouth. lol

Maybe I'm ignoring the obvious, the Indic cosmologist didn't conceptualise the universe like modern astronomy does. Although they did get a good few concepts spot on. ??? So they understood planets and the way they rotated around each other. They probably realise a bunch of planets were intricately involved in doing this around each other. Did they realise that the moon rotated around the earth and the earth around the sun? Surely yes? But then did they fathom that a lot of planets are clustered together to form a galaxy and that a lot of these types of galaxies existed?

It just seems to point at lack of hard definition of vocabulary to me? When you study any scientific based subject in the west you do get used to very specific, 'technical', precise definitions of words, but when it comes to our own, we don't seem to have that? I mean lets compare your definition of mandal with an online dictionaries for example: You: Mandal is circle or elliptical orbit 3 other definitions: SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary (1) ਦੇਸ਼ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਚਕਰ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਚੱਕਰ ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸੂਰਜ ਇਕ ਚੰਦਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਤੀ ਆਦਿਕ ਗਿਣੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਦਰਪਨ)। (2) ਤਾਰਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਸ। (3) ਸਮੂਹ। (4) ਟਿੱਕਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ, ਜੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। (5) ਸਭਾ, ਦਾਇਰਾ, ਸੰਗ, ਹੋਰ ਦੇਖੋ ਮੰਡਲੁ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣੁ ਰਹੈ। ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਮ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਕ English Translation n.m. congregation, constellation; group, association, society, social circle; circle, circumference; region, sphere; administrative division, district, sub division; department, halo around the sun or the moon. Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਸੰ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਗੋਲਾਕਾਰ ਘੇਰਾ. ਦਾਯਰਹ (Circle)। (2) ਸੌ ਯੋਜਨ ਦਾ ਦੇਸ਼। (3) ਉਹ ਇਲਾਕਾ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਾਰਾਂ ਰਾਜੇ ਜੁਦੇ ਜੁਦੇ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋਣ. "ਕੇਤੇ ਮੰਡਲ ਦੇਸ਼". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਸੰਸਾਰ. ਜਗਤ. "ਮਰਣ ਲਿਖਾਇ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ". (ਧਨਾ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧) "ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ". (ਮਾਲੀ ਮਃ ੫)। (5) ਸਭਾ. ਦੀਵਾਨ. "ਸੰਤਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ". (ਭੈਰ ਮਃ ੫)। (6) ਸਮੁਦਾਯ. ਗਰੋਹ. "ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ". (ਸੋਹਿਲਾ)। (7) ਫੌਜ ਦਾ ਕੈਂਪ। (8) ਰਿਗਵੇਦ ਦੇ ਹਿੱਸੇ, ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਮਾਯਣ ਦੇ ਕਾਂਡ ਅਤੇ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਦੇ ਸਕੰਧ ਹਨ। (9) ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਭਾਗ. ਕਾਂਡ. ਪਰਵ। (10) ਯੋਗਮਤ ਅਤੇ ਵੈਦ੍ਯਕ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ੪੦ ਦਿਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਮਾਂ। (11) ਕੁੱਤਾ। (12) ਸੱਪ। (13) ਚਾਲੀ ਯੋਜਨ ਲੰਮਾ ਅਤੇ ਵੀਹ ਯੋਜਨ ਚੌੜਾ ਇਲਾਕਾ। (14) ਗੇਂਦ. ਫਿੰਡ। (15) ਰਥ ਦਾ ਪਹੀਆ। (16) ਭੋਜਨ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਹਿੰਦੂਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਚਾਰੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਕੱਢੀ ਹੋਈ ਲੀਕ (ਕਾਰ).

I bet you somewhere there are a bunch of Hindus thinking 'why do Sikhs hate Hindus so much?' I must say though, when I was growing up, a general sneering attitude towards Hindus as 'lesser beings' wasn't uncommon amongst Sikhs. Not everyone was it it, but plenty were. Only now that I am older have I come to realise that at least a part of this must have been down to some residual effect of British 'martial theory' being pumped into Sikh heads, emasculating the Hindus. Although the wider picture is much more complex than just this, I'm sure it didn't help Sikh-Hindu relations. Sikhs were frequently hankaari and big headed as if they personally themselves had 'saved Hindus from Muslims' not their ancestors. lol With what happened post 1978 (especially in the period in the run up to and following 1984), with Indira playing communal politics really drove nails into the coffin of good Hindu-Sikh relations. A lot of nonPanjabi Hindus seem to view Sikhs as outsiders/traitors, no doubt an image pushed by Indian media prior to and during the autonomy conflict. Overall though, I think Hindus don't understand and/or like Sikhs pushing for an independent identity for themselves. I think they consider us their their uppity offspring to smack back into place?

I think the people who posted it were nonSikhs? I actually think that was a NY newspaper's youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/nydailynews I hear what you are saying but that could also be deemed as simply covering up problems in the panth which is at least partially contributive to such things taking place. The underlying issue of the inherent penduness of Panjabis which has them engaging in such things over Gurdwara management is what needs to be addressed, trying to hide this won't help especially when police have to get involved. This crap happens in the UK too. Why not face up to it? We already sweep way too many of our issues under the rug as it is?

Did you confront them on the site before you posted here?

What are the Gurmukhi and (if they are different) Panjabi words for: 1) Planets 2) Solar systems 3) Galaxies 4) The cosmos/universe Planets are ਗ੍ਰਹਿ What exactly is a ਖੰਡ, ਮੰਡਲ and a ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ? ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ is defined as the cosmos/universe is one dictionary but then you have this: "ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫) What about ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ? What exactly is a ਲੋਅ?

Andromeda: The nearest galaxy to us.

???? What you talking about??

I think you are doing way too much projection there myself Jannat. Especially with the khands. One interesting point I noted was the relative smallness of our sun in our milkyway. Sure it might dominate our lives but really it is a pin prick in the wider galaxy. One of billions of stars. Note how important iron is to the galaxy and life itself. Sarb loh! Each coloured light/blob in this image is a galaxy..... Personally I start to wonder about my significance to God in all this at times.