dalsingh101

I meant as in using actual words close to the 'miri-piri' formulation. I know Bhai Gurdas covers it as Raj/Jog. Now we need to find out an early instance of the use of the sant-sipahi formula. I just hope it isn't a post annexation term? ADDITION: I realise I may have completely misunderstood the lines....

Just a side note: Have we uncovered an early (the earliest?) instance of reference to the doctrine of miri/piri here? ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ - ਪੀਰਨ ਤੇ ਜਿਨ ਪੀਰੀ ਹਰੀ ਲੀਨੀ ਗੁਰਾਈ। ਸ਼ਾਹਨਿ ਸੋਂ ਪਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਹਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਮੀਰਨ ਕੀ ਜਿਨ ਮੀਰੀ ਗਵਾਈ।

I'm going to try and type up the few pages on Guru Gobind Singh. Gives me a chance to get some Panjabi typing practice in. Let's see how far we can get with translating:

Regulars here will know I love the study of our history passionately, but I have an (on the surface) simple question I'd like to throw out there for everyone. It's natural for a community to dissect their pasts to try and understand them better, more so with religious communities as it can provide both context and doctrinal clarification for today. However, does an emphasis on retrospective analysis sometimes compromise exploring new ideas and forming (and implementing) flexible, dynamic plans to deal with the challenges of today and tomorrow? I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

You should collate all of these sources with verifiable references. If true, they present an interpretation of Sikh past that is important to preserve and discuss. I only know of Jacquemont's statement myself, which I posted here. Okay, that is interesting as it means the author eulogised deities other than the various incarnations of Chandi. The reference to this otherwise obscure deity (to me anyway) may give some insight towards the author? I wonder if this deity is mentioned anywhere else in Sikh texts? Recently I came across an idea that it could be possible that various poets came to the dasmesh darbar with existing works for patronage. There was a suggestion that these kavis may have been required to adapt their works to Sikh thought for acceptance. That might explain why you have a work with a strong emphasis on these female deities, which then relegates them to the worship of Akal Purakh? Interesting idea.

Fair point. I don't know who composed Ugardanti though. Can we confidently say it was dasmesh pita? What to make of the cow protecting sentiment also? Whoever it was, was an Indian patriot it seems (though not necessarily a pro Hinduism one)? There is evidence pointing to a ban in Amritsar but not elsewhere? Have you uncovered something that gives a contrary picture?

What the .....!!! You know, a part of me really wants India to do well just so enough money goes around to put an end to this type of backward savage shit. But knowing people in India, they'll probably just import people from outside to abuse in this way, should that happen. There is generally no sense of humanity in that place, despite a few exceptions here and there. The lessons of the gareeb niwaas haven't sunk in.

Have you seen what you get when a lion and tiger make love not war? Behold a liger!!

If we look at stanza 5 we find it opens with what appears to be a reference to a deity? I came across Parbati associated with the Himalayas, and Kali of Vindhyachal when translating some of Bhai Vir Singh's work, but have no idea who this Hingula associated deity is? Whoever she is, she is soon described as a worshipper of Akal Purakh herself, as follows: ਤੁਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਜਪੰਤੀ ॥ Is this reflecting an aspect of Akal Purakh's power? Then we have: ਹਮਨ ਬੈਰੀਅਨ ਕਉ ਪਕੜ ਘਾਤ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਤਬੈ ਦਾਸ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕਾ ਮਨ ਪਤੀਜੈ ॥ Which uses the 'Das Gobind' reference associated to GGS ji by some. It is a bit confusing because it praises this deity but then makes statements like: ਅਟਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਕਾਲ ਕਾ ਨਾਮ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ Worship only the Almighty who is eternal. ਮੜੀ ਗੋਰ ਦੇਵਲ ਮਸੀਤਾਂ ਗਿਰਾਯੰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਏਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਾਂਯੰ ॥ Demolish the graves, the monastries and mosques. Sermonise the worship of only the Almighty. I would agree, especially given the subsequent lines: ਸਕਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਇਕ ਬਰਨ ਹੋਇ ਕਰ ਭੁਲਾਨੀ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਕੀ ਜੁਗਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ All the populace has forgotten to praise the Lord. The duty to religion and humanity is no longer comprehended. I would translate the lines as: The whole world has become of a single type and forgotten The ways of dharam are known to none I'm surprised with this: ਨਹੀਂ ਤੁਮ ਬਿਨਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਦੂਸਰ ਹਜੂਰੇ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਅਲਖਣੀ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਰੇ ॥ No one else is close to the Almighty as you are. You are ubiquitous in the entire universe. I don't know why the translator interprets this closeness as relating to God?? Whatever this power is, the author is requesting it's support to help fight the Moghuls. This line is interesting, especially how the translator has glossed the reference to 'Turks' with a general statement on 'evil doers', which most likely is referring to Moghuls in particular and not Muslims in general: ਸਕਲ ਹਿੰਦ ਸਿਉਂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਸਟਾ ਬਿਦਾਰਹੁ ॥ Drive all the evil goers[sic] from India. Addition: The use of the word ਹਿੰਦ for India seems unique and I couldn't find it used anywhere else in the DG on searching?

Are you serious? Do you know the extent some Panjabi Sikhs drinks? How deeply ingrained in the culture it is? That letter wouldn't have diddly squat influence in my opinion. If anything, people would probably start saying: "Look, our people all used to drink before and then Singh Sabha came along with their Christian puritan vibe and tricked us into being sober, the ba$*~£!s! Ayo, peg sheg layo!"

I think it's obscure now and the option to download has been removed in scribd. One way you could 'obtain' it, is through the laborious process of taking screen shots of each individual page (maximised as large as possible) on your computer, and then cropping these images (in something like Paint). (If you do this a tip is to carefully number each image sequentially i.e. '1.jpg' then 2.jpg then 3.jpg and so on, believe you me it really helps when putting it back together!). Then you could use some software to save these files as PDFs and put them all together in one doc. It's feasible with this publication as it is relatively short in length. On another note, I'm envisioning a whole other side to dasmesh pita and his times now - which is outside of the 'warrior'. Guru ji REALLY seems to have practiced and encouraged (through patronage) literary achievements and creativity. A warrior, poet, educator and student (amongst other things). Deeper than an ocean.

Where are these positive allusions? One thing that caught my attention was the use of the honorific 'Sri' in the concluding line. Guru ji, has never referred to themselves in that way before (as far as I know)? I was under the impression that Guru usually referred to themselves as 'Gobind Das'? Could this part have been written by a devotee? Plus it does have more of a style (in sentiment to sullay) of slightly later rehat namas? Fascinating.

Is this really dasmesh pita's writing? It does seem quite fierce in it's anti-Musla sentiment unlike anything else I've encountered in the Dasam Granth thus. At first glance it does appear to be in contradiction with the general notion of Akal Ustat? The references seem to be directly to various incarnations of Chandi also? Very interesting and nice to read nonetheless.

Here, here! I second that! But that being said, I still think Panjabi music can be a very useful tool when used to transmit shared positive cultural values (not drinking, jaat paat and miscellaneous gundh mundh that passes off as Panjabi culture these days) and bring about discussions of issues pertinent to the community (especially in the face of our own people having a habit of constantly sweeping stuff under the carpet). Also, I'll tell you guys straight up, Panjabi music helped me significantly develop my language skills (especially in the area of vocabulary) growing up. When I think about it, you can see a microcosm of what has happened to Panjabi music in Hip Hop, where there was a time (late 80s/early 90s) when it had depth and covered various socio-economic topics such as racism, police brutality and wider political issues. It was also used to bolster a positive 'Afrocentric' culture and identity. Then it went all gundh mundh and dwindled down stuff like 'move b1tch, get out the way, get out the way b1tch, get out the way!" Maybe we have to honestly ask ourselves the uncomfortable questions of whether Panjabis are influenced by the gandh mundh in modern Panjabi music, or whether the music in reality just reflects already existing gundh mundh in the community that we usually stay quiet about? No doubt the musical references to it may help 'normalise' it, but is it really accurate to say that it is causal? Example: Panjabis have been getting pissed up for ages - the music just celebrated it. I do love some of Sartaaj's music and pray he can keep quality high and resist the temptation to 'flood' the market, now he knows some of us like his stuff, like Lembher Hussainpuri did. His music still helps me learn new words and ideas I wouldn't really come across otherwise. It TRULY keeps me closer to my culture at a time when I see our people turning their back on it in what appears to be droves?

Having seen a few cases of the old 'sugar' in my own and other Sikh families, I'm a bit paranoid of cakes these days...... (There, that'll bring the whole mood down....) lol Having said that, I used to just love any cake with almond in them...yummy!! Another old favorite was gajerela or 'gajjar park' as my mum used to call it, for some strange reason (I never met another Sikh/Panjabi family who called it that?)

It has this to say about Guru Hargobind ji: ਮਾਨਹੁ ਜਗ ਮੈਂ ਗੁਰ ਕੀਆ ਖੜਗ ਸੋਂ ਹੇਤੁ ਪਿਆਰ॥ ਤੁਰਕਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਜੂੱਧ ਕੀ ਰਾਖੀ ਮਨਸ਼ਾ ਧਾਰ ॥ ਦੇਗ਼ ਤੇਗ਼ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਹੀ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਦੁਇ ਕੀਨ ।। ਜੋਗ ਭੋਗ ਦੋਨੌਂ ਕੀਏ ਉੱਤਮ ਲੀਨ ।।

Interestingly the forward suggests that the author (Kavi Kankan) may have been a contemporary witness to Guru Hargobind and wrote this piece in old age during a brief visit to dasmesh pita (at Anandpur), where he witnessed the Khalsa. It is also claimed that he contributed text to Hanuman Natak.

I had mistakenly posted this under the Hanuman Natak thread. This is Das Gur Katha, which was apparently written by a darbari kavi of dasmesh pita. Here is a description from thesikhencyclopedia site: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36980070/Das-Guru-Katha-by-Kankan-Poet-Kavi-in-the-Durbar-of-Guru-Gobind-Singh-Sahib

Hard to trust these things nowadays. I mean could it just be another attempt to pave the ground for an attack on Iran in future?

America! Why do most of the violent, racist murders of sardars take place over there (excluding Panjab itself obviously)? Then again, I pray it's not another internal issue like the Sikh TV channel CEO. Plus they always seem to be old men?

I wasn't judging it but saying it is a really horrible position to be in. When it comes to these things, dowry, in laws, general treatment of females married into a family, step children etc. our lot can behave like a bunch of heartless, cruel, savage animals sometimes. It's not uncommon. Even seen twisted budhiaan in my own family do it. Unless the sister's been a complete and utter biatch herself, a brother should take her home rather than let her roll about like this. We really need to get less jungly as a quom. I know not everyone is like that, but too many are. It's a real shame. It's like our lot have some hard arse streak in them totally devoid of daya.

Fighting to live in a home that doesn't want you. How horrible must that be?

My bad.

So it seems like Guru ji and his poets were VERY busy with literature, interpreting it, creating it, adapting it etc. It says a lot about the value and importance they put on being lettered as well as being widely informed on literature if you ask me. Subsequent havoc during the post Khalsa wars meant that our community had to put this on a back burner until Maharajah Ranjit Singh's time [???]. This was again stunted by the Anglo invasion, but their paradigms and the change of the political scene later caused another spurt of literature in the shape of the Singh Sabha literature. I'm just wondering what the key literature produced during Sikh rule was? Suraj Parkash Bhangu's Panth Parkash Anything else? It wouldn't surprise me if the Nirmalas have a bundle of stuff not widely know to the wider community from this period? Anyway, I'm digressing. The nature of the literature produced by dasmesh pita and those associated with him sort of force one to review attitudes towards Indic mythology, especially if coming from a Singh Sabha background. Having briefly scanned some of it, I'm not surprised that Uggardanti was not included in the 'standardised' version of DG. I wonder what some of our more Hinduphobic brothers would make of it?