Niranjana

Rehit = code or pratice? Maryada would appear to be composed of Mar = Death Yada = To remember From this one can derive their own understanding and then put into "context" why certain Maryadas exist and for what purpose and to what extent they are to be invoked in certain situations. As per the turbans:- Gangan Mandal mai Boonga Haamara Mahakaal Rakvara Hai!!!

It is from the brutal and savage beginnings of man concerned in the main with base instincts of survival that mankind has evolved into fields of knowledge, culture, history, art, spiritualism and religion...we are part of evolution... ...it is precisely aspects such as History, culture, art, spiritual awareness, religion that distinquish us from animals...so on another note, why this increasingly bent on 'being simple' within Sikh parchaar over the past 100 years? Did Guru Sahib really want for us to be 'simple'?

Hari Singh Nalwa, was indeed a great example of the classic Khalsa Singh, trained in the art of warfare and also steeped in classical culture with knowledge of acient Indian texts and also those from Europe (he was fluent in French and English). The legendary fear he would strike in the hearts of his enemies is still recounted today amongst Pathan families where young children are still scolded by their mothers than "You'd better sleep now or else 'Howa' will come to get you"...the consequences of this were well seen during the Indo-Pak war when parts of the Pakistani Army surrendered iimmediately upon hearing the Sikhs were arriving... I would like to explore further this classical training and knowledge, for there certainly appears to be more to this great giant of the Khalsa Ranks than is commonly acknowledged...

I have few questions on this point; 1. What exactly is "Brahmanism" in the view of the forum? 2. In view of this, why did Guru Sahib warn us against the perils of Brahmanism and indeed why did he fight against these perils? 3. Associated with 2. What in the view of the forum are the perils of Brahminism? 4. Now, how does the Havan equate to Brahmanism and why? 5. Finally, what is the forums views on increasing occurances of Brahmanical behaviour found within the Panth concerning matters such as:- i) The over emphasis and (at times superstitious views) regarding the 5Ks over above than given to Bani, Santiya, Vichaar etc. ii) The practice of Arranged Marriages, Dowry, Caste Marriages etc iii) The clockwise circumnation of the Sri Guru in the same fashion as that of Brahmins around their havan iv) The notion that Khalsa means 'pure' hence, by definition all non-Khalsas are 'impure' and given that in accordance with present understanding, to be a Khalsa means to be a strict Amritdhari, this would imply that bar Amritdharis, all others across the world are 'impure'? v) The exclusive rights in certain sections for only Amritdharis to prepare and eat langer in segregation from others. Particular cooking and eating rites and rights for Amritdharis. Please could the forum please address all these questions to really get to the crux of Brahmanism, what it really is, why we as Khalsa Singhs are opposed to it and how it is slowly making its way back into the Panth by those who shout most against it. I humbly request that the any answers be provided with reference to the question number...this is an important topic and increasingly so given the vast threats of external and internal erosion we are facing as a Panth, please do help me with my understanding of the foregoing. "Kshatri Kaa Poot Ho, Bahmin Kaa Naahee!" VahegurooJeeKaaKhalsa VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!! Niranjana

Hari is correct in that the origins of this festival do have pagan and devi-worshipping roots, as per St. Valentine however, he was what we would term a Shaheed following his matyrdom at the hands of the Romans for defying the Emperor's tyranical ban on marriages... ...as with many festivities, over time this has become more and more commercialised (those who feel this is a purely Western phenomena, should consider how many Indians, be they Sikh, Hindoo, Muslim or any other denomination actually know the authentic background to days like Diwali, Vasaiki, Lohri, Raksha bandan, Holi, etc etc)... ...as per St Valentine's day...I find the whole affair a tad over-commercialised today (in terms of the restaurants and holiday offers, which are frankly usually ****), but agree with Hari, it's all good fun to exchange gifts with one's beloved as simply a cultural practice (yes, I know it is not Punjabi, but not all of us are 100% punjabi anyway, I don't recall seeing Jeans and Nike Air trainers be part of Punjabi cultural dress for instance!)...I do wish however for more acknowledgement of who St Valentine was and what he stood and died for...

On the topic of Yagnas, it is interesting to note that the tradition of the Sampat Paath is closely linked to the recitation of verses during a Yagna. On another note, the quote provided by Sardar(ni) Harjinder Sahib(a) is a little incorrect as MahaKaal and MahaLoh do not translate to Lord in anyway (re: "My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji )"). I have written about this on another thread, following a similiar misquotation on a SikhSangat discussion. Also, looking at this again, the whole translation of "Mahakaal Rakvaar Hamaaro, MahaLoh Mai Kinker Thaaro..." is quite off-key (Harjinder Jee, I'm not attacking you in way, as I know this quote is translated by someone else), however we need to be careful in the use of such words...particularly since, literally, Maha Kaal and Maha Loh are Great Death/Time and Great Iron/Weapon and hence in Tantrik terms reference to Shiva and Kalika... ...obviously, that's not who the Shabd is referring to, but an understanding of these is essential to avoid potential RSS mis-use and biased propaganda arising from these terms, hence translating them as Lord is misleading and can open up a whole can of worms.... Gur Fateh! Niranjana

Thank you Rupz, this also reminds me of the Keski debate when certain pro-Keski individuals were making contradictory statements on one hand saying even Hindoos wear long hair, then in the same breath accusing them of Munnmat because their women do not keep their tied in a topknot or wear a Keski! Rupz, you are correct that Keshdhari saroop can be found across the globe in all cultures, deeper inspection will reveal that KeshDhari saroops were most often the sole reserve of warriors (Khshatriyas), philosophers, statesmen and the like... ..changes to my knowledge occurred during the Roman and Greek period were infatuation of youthful appearence took a twist from what it previously entailed and hence the clean shaven face was made popular by the likes of Alexander the Great...

This is an argument that I recall having many times with Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike. To me, it is surprising that Sikhs have gone to such lengths to find pseudo-scientific proofs et al for establishing the requirement to keep Kesh. Much of this closely ties in within the insecurities we find amongst Sikhs today about identity issues. I have heard many Gyanis and Pacharaks preach that maintaining Kesh is for identity and because it is 'natural'. I have also found this reasoning somewhat aloof as it doesn't fully address the matter of keeping Kesh and hence arguments such as this one naturally arise regarding finger nails. This is further aggravated with the English translations and explanations of our Maryada in that "Sikhs do not cut their hair" and associated aritcles titled 'why we don't cut our hair'. My personal view has always been 'why do others cut their hair?' Answer this and we can come closer to understanding why maintain our Kesh...and we'll find it is far from being for 'Identity' or because it is 'natural'! So let's ask, WHY do others CUT their hair??? Any thoughts from the forum? Impact of Roman and Greek 'youthful' ideals? Supposed praticality? Changing ideas of beauty? Fashion? (In which case, let's see what Fashion actually entails and refers to?)....

Harmless, your observations are spot on, this is exactly the experiences I have encountered with the groups you mentioned. We have close family friends who are Muslims (usually of West Punjab or Iranian descent) who show much respect for the Sardars (so much so that one in fact, although being a practising Muslim, has the majority of his social ties with Sikhs). Let's try and anlayse this with a mature and objective outlook to get to the bottom of the matter. Regards, Niranjana

HERE HERE!!!

Punjabi Nationalist, thanks for your reply and I know it wasn't directed at me, for I do agree with many of the points you have raised.

where you from???...you sexy...singh???

Truth Singh, your comments are spot on, nonetheless, it is interesting reading Sardar Bikramjit Singh's post and looking at the majority of other posts in this folder (anti-sikh propaganda) where we find the main issues being with the likes of the HUT and other extreme fundamentalist Wahabi and Sunni type organisations -this to me from my travels and readings appears to be a mainly UK issue, in India I do not find the same level of tension between Muslims and Sikhs as in the UK, where instead we are faced more with fundamentalist Hindoo agendas. In the US, again, I see little of either, although the RSS through their VHP movements does appear to have a pretty strong grip out there too (more over through infiltrating many Yoga and Holistic schools). Again, little of the Muslim-Sikh problem compared to the UK (in fact from what I noted, in NY Muslim-Sikh relations are pretty tight following the 9-11 event, whatever the underlying motive, similar reactions have not be forged in the UK though). Perhaps it is worth looking into matters such as the influence of the Diaspora on religious movements (Muslims in the UK and Europe, Hindoos post-colonial India, Sikhs in BC, Canada, Evangelical Christians in the Mid-West US and so on)... Any thoughts?

Gur Fateh! Joyce, I hear where you are going with this and it is indeed a worthwhile consideration... ...I have some questions for both pro-and-anti-Khalistanis, what exactly will the political, economic and social reality of such a place be? Before this, where exactly will this 'land of the pure' be? I have heard such variance between Khalistan supporters themselves, from what is left of Punjab, to all of Punjab (including Pakistan) to all of India through to pre-colonial Sikh Rule right down to 'buying' an island in the pacific ocean or indeed setting up Khalistan in Canada! People often say to me, why do I question so much before it has even occurred (that's usually the polite ones, as Truth Singh accurrately mentioned, more often than not, one gets entralled with accusation of GOI agents, RSS and more recently as I have personally found being termed a 'N**g'!). But any venture in life, any project, especially one as big as this will certainly warrant effective and advance planning, the 'usi chak deyagai' attitude is far from being enough. So to avoid any pro-anti-views, all I ask is where will Khalistan be, what will be its boundaries and then under what economic and political system and policies will it be governed. Is there is single united party under effective leadership that Sikhs and non-Sikhs can approach to discuss and investigate such matters to learn more about Khalistan and its prospective constitution? I look forward to learning more. Niranjana

It is acts lke this which we as Sikhs should get really 'hot-headed' about and fill with rage, not the usual pathetic arguments we see purported by the holders of 'Tat-Gurmat Maryada' on stupid things like wearing make up, tying one's beard, eating langar sitting on the floor or other items of little value...where are these Tat Khalsas when it comes to addressing real issues??? What is the all-powerful, all-representative SGPC doing about this??? Jack **** is what they are doing! All rehit namas explicitly mention for Sikhs to cut ties with Kurimars...it is here that excommunication should be issued, not hounding Scholars and other individuals who present differing 'views'...this is a clear-cut command, ostricise in all ways those who are Kuri/Nari-mars...

lol! have a good night!

Beast, rest assured, I am uneducated and unjust! All I will say is that my post followed that from Punjabi Nationalist on this page and was specific to the situation he highlighted. In the situation you describe, i.e. Keshdhari Singhs smoking or Trim Singhs etc, I agree, and these fellows fall into the same trap, being afraid of what they really are...

"Infernal Monk" no one is disowning the names of Singh or Kaur or indeed being Sikhs, aspects arising from our lineage, history, culture are every part as part of what makes up Sikhs today throughout the Diaspora. This is NOT an attempt to create divisions, simply to explore matters further before paint brushing them all with "Sikhi is simple" brush and ignoring finer parts of our heritage.

Gur Fateh! I can't write much at present, however a request first, ADMIN Jeeo, please can we keep this thread strictly to the matter at hand to ensure this subject is fully discussed and developed. I first read the Bushido when finishing my undergraduate studies and in many ways it was this text (later in conjunction with readings from the Dasam Granth) that really inspired me to move towards Amrit and a Khalsa lifetstyle -prior to that, as much as this will upset some, I simply did not wish to become like the streams of Katar-Amritdharis I saw and met growing up with the all too famous stance on 'being simple' with their own sub-culture of masculine-issues. I saw direct parallels between the requirements for the Samurai and those I considered to be crucial to the Khalsa Singh, for instance:- -Samurai would comb their hair every morning, cut their nails, maintain good health and engage in meditative and physical discipline (compare to actually undertaking Ishaan, Yoga, Simran, Paath, Healthy breakfast etc) -Samurai were expected to master the science of weaponary and also keep weapons to hand, simultaneously they were also required to be skilled in healing arts (using herbs, what would consider now as first aid etc etc) -Samurai during peaceful times were required undertake training in classical music and calligraphy and be well versed in classic literature (compare with the records we have of Khalsa Singhs of old trained in Raag Vidiya, Santiya and calligraphy of many Granths, Baba Deep Singh is an obvious example as indeed is Sant Gurbachan Singh Bindrawale). -Samurai would only drink wine (saki) and not common alcohol or partake in any intoxicating substances. -Most Samurai were married and were expected to maintain their traditions with their children from an early age. ...in short I found the Bushido to cover aspects of education, familial duty, principles, valour, courtesy & respect, horsemanship, managing the house, frugality and many others far over and above those extolled by modern institutions purporting to be the only true holders of 'Tat-gurmat-maryada' yet possessing very few of such skills although Guru Gobind Singh himself not onlyl displayed them, but sought to establish the very same if one looks further into his writings, life and relics... Gur Fateh, Niranjana p.s. I know I'm running short on time, however this closing statement from the Bushido on cultural refinement has to be considered to really understand why all these matters are important and not simply "nakre" as I have so often been told... "While it goes without saying that an attitude of hardness and strength if considered foremost in the way of the warrior, if strength is all you have you will seem like a PEASANT turned Samurai, and THAT WILL NEVER DO. You SHOULD acquire education as a matter of course, and it is desirable to learn things as poetry and the tea ceremony, little by little ("rumta rumta"), in your spare time... ...if you have no eduaction, there is no way for you to understand the reasons of things of past or present...you will run into obstacles..."

Amrit Pal Singh Jeeo, please could you offer some guidance/thoughts further to my post yesterday?

Well then??? Does anyone have any of the Nitnem banis (or say Sukhmani Sahib, Sahbd Hazare, Dukhbhajana Sahib etc) in Raag? I do mean Raag and in the case of Jaap Sahib and Dasam Bani, does anyone have these recited in accordance with the correct meters (Chhands). Incidently, and excuse my ignorance here, but what is the difference between Kirtan Sohila, Aarti-Aarta and 'Aarti-Sohila'??? Bhai Gurdas in his Vaars in fact mentions that Sikhs would 'sing' the Sodar and Aarti Sohila...can thoughts? (This would make more sense than say singing Japji Sahib, as these are composed within certain Raags and Meters).

This matter is not limited to only youth, one will commonly find amongst many mona circles of ages 20-60 that a Keshdari individual is some sort of Pendoo person. I have found this ironic as often it is such monas who are usually 'pendoo' in their thoughts and outlook and lifestyle ('asee taa, bilkul Punjaab vangar hisaab-kitaab rakeya hai' -then why don't you go back to Punjaab!!!). Alternatively these Monas regard themselves as so 'modern' that they effectively are annoyed with the colour of their own skin...again it is ironic when I meet them and their all-too-often pendoo families (My son is a "dacter") as I recall doing during my graduation as it was indeed a fantastic site seeing the mannerisms of such families when meeting my Parents who were not only Keshdhari, but spoke good English and conducted themselves in a manner appropriate for the setting...great how we were suddenly regarded as being "too modern" given that on account of our practising Sikhi were not all that long ago regarded as Pendoos!!! This type of attitude I find more so in the US and Canada during my travels and the good old hot spots in the UK like Southall, B'ham, Leicester, Slough etc. I do find it hilirious meeting families in NorthAmerica, all too often coming straight from a Village in Panjab and having made some money now regard themselves as effectively modern and upper class...of course, their mannerisms remain the same and as soon as they do open their mouths...well, I'm sure everyone knows where this is going! It's just amazing how they seemed so surprised to learn that even my Great Grandfather spoke English and more so when they learn Khalsa Singhs who maintain Rehit, although work in professional settings, command positions of respect and actually have more fun than they do!

There is an easily accessible text on Tantra interviewing a modern era Aghori (Vimalanda) written by Robert E. Svoboda, entitled Kundalini Aghora parts I and II. I'm not sure what the scholarly view on such material is, but I would love for this book to be provided within 3HO circles to really show them what 'Kundalini Yoga' is 'actually' about!!! According to the text, Aghora is literally "non-terrifying" and refers to the most extreme of Indian sects, concentrating on forcible conversion of a limited human personality into a divine personality...and Aghori is a practioner of Aghora... ...hope this helps put Dynamic Banda's revelations into context!

shuba saayamkala lalleshvariama!!! bhavaan kushali vaa? aham khusali! bhojanam abhoothvaa? anyath kaaryamasthi, vilambhaha abhooth! punaha milaamoha!!! p.s. Krapaya Bingnam na vaa???!!!

Gur Fateh! I have heard this sakhee before too, the first time from my Grandmother when I was younger. I do feel it merits further investigation and indeed will shed light on a number of matters currently plaguing modern Sikh Institutions and relating to Khande-di-Paul and the compositions of Guru Gobind Singh. So I have a few questions and welcome all discussion on these:- According to the Sakhee, the Pahul encompasses Jantr, Mantr and Tantr in the form of the Gurmantr, Satnaam and its ingredients. Although many will suggest that it is against the Rehit Maryada to be invoking these three attributes (Jantr, Tantr and Mantr), I feel the forum is already aware of the issue underlying the Rehit Maryada debate so shall not venture to it here, however we simply refer members to Jaap Sahib (Namo Mantr Mantrang, Namo Jantr Jantrang, Namo Ist Istey, Namo Tantr Tantrang) and allow them to come to their own conclusions to what these terms mean within a Sikh setting. What I would like to ask about these three essentially occult attributes is how the forms they take according to the Sakhee actually function. Taking each in turn;- Jantr Amritpal Singh Jee has translated this as being the spelling of the Gurmantr, Vaheguroo –please could we expand on this? Is this an indication for visualisation of the Gurmantr or otherwise? Mantr This is indicated to be Satnaam, a commonly expounded mantr in 3HO circles, known for their modern pseudo tantrism, however within the majority of Sikh circles is usually recited alongside the Mool Mantr or the Beej Mantr (Ek Ongkar –not satnaam as Yogi Bhajan preaches it to be!). What interests me here is that Satnaam is not recited as a singular mantr in the preparation of the Pahul today, and although accounts of its preparation do vary, I am not aware of one which explicitly indicates for the recitation of ‘Satnaam’, so how does this become the mantr in this instance? Is it perhaps not referring to Satnaam as a mantr, but rather ‘the’ satnaam (i.e. Shabd or Gurmantr –in which how does the Jantr aspect work). Tantr This is the most interesting, particularly considering the 3 related components and the analogies made with the respective devtas. The Iron Weapon (Sarabloh) is most intriguing (particularly when I refer back to my earlier posts on this matter and the use of Iron and Kali worship), the ties with Yam, clearly indicate, as (Nihang) Ragi Bhai Balbir Singh once mentioned in a Katha, that in drinking the Pahul, a Singh effectively stirs up and drinks death (mauth –supposedly Sanskrit for Khanda? Please verify). Having 3 components, from a numerological aspect would indicate form (3 being the number creating the basic of forms –the triangle), found in many religious and spiritual traditions (trinities in Juedo Christian and Indian cultures; Father, Son and Holy Ghost; Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva, Treh Mudra etc), which would make sense here given that the Pahul really gave form to the Khalsa (through Bana and Saroop). Similarly the association with the devtas Indra and Varun, just like Yam appear to point to mastery over this aspects (i.e. raj/kingdom, strength/flexibility and death), although this is another area I would like to expand upon and discuss with the forum. Finally, in the translation by Amritpal Singh Jee, it is mentioned that four things are obtained from Khande-di-Pahul;- -meditation on the Goddess (Chandi), hence Power/Shakti (from the Savaye, presumably Tav Parshad Savaye? Or Urgandanti?) -peace from Anand Sahib -salvation from Jap Ji Sahib -?????? (the desire for battle???) Please could you clarify exactly what the four things are so we may invetsigate these further. Finally, I appreciate that to really get into this topic, we will first need to address what Jantr, Mantr and Tantr relate to...please do provide feedback on any of the foregoing! GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLL!!!