Niranjana

GUR FATEH! Pheena Ji, is that an order or an answer!

Dear All, here's a similar discussion... http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=90

Gur Fateh, We have all heard of the Mool Mantr and the Gur Mantr, however what is the 'AKAL MANTR'? Forgive my ignorance in this matter... GUR BAR AKKKKAAAAAAALLLLL!!!

Gur Fateh! Having looked further into this topic, I have heard (however have no documentary evidence to support this notion, so those who do, please come forward) that the Hanuman Natak was a piece written in Braj, not by Guru Ji, but by a Rishi, however not all of it was completed and owing to some events, which now escape my memory, the piece was lost/thrown into a river. Many years later a poet patronised by a King found the piece and after praying for inspiration completed the missing pieces. These were then bound together and presented to Guru Ji as a 'gift'...which one can understand if one looks at the important of the Hanuman character in terms of wrestling Akharas in Northern Indian...however it is not Gurbani, simply literature, albeit of inspirational nature, however it is used within the Nihang Dals for recitation for a purpose similar to those used by Indian wrestlers. ...note again: these are not facts supported by any documented evidence, these are based upon personal opinions of some elderly folk, therefore, I welcome all feedback, critique and corrections... GUR BAR AKAAALLLLL!!!

Mugermach Singh! Go on! Milk and almonds...and of course Channae, and plenty of Desi-Ghee!!! LOL Truthfully though, back when I was training hard and properly, I did on ocassion use milk and almonds as a nice tonic for a post workout recovery drink/meal. I'd recommend it to those training hard...unfortunately for various reasons, I'm not anymore...but I'll always recommend it to others! GUR BAR AKAAAA:!

Gur Fateh! We have seen numerous references to Guru Gobind Singh as "Akali Nihang" Guru Gobind Singh. The associated websites do make clear the varying stages between Khalsa Singh, Nihang Singhs and Akali Nihang Singhs (also see posts by Narsingha on how to become a Nihang). However, I must ask that, surely Guru Gobind Singh is above all such distinctions/ranks? Just a personal opinion/question, perhaps the forum or Narsingha and others who support the notion could help explain? SAT SRI AKAAALL!!

Gur Fateh! We've all heard much talk about the Gupt Fauja, does anyone have any views on the 'Kasiyia Fauja'? GUR BAR AAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Just to return to the topic of Modern Ram Rae [as per the Rattan Mala, this is an interesting topic, if everyone else agrees, can we start a new thread on this for clarity, so others can join in too?] As per the Raag Maala issue, please find below the comments from the SIKHNET moderators in response to a recently declined submission to a forum member who ask about Raag Maala: Your recent message titled Re: what is "Ragmala" ? is being returned to you for reasons given below. Please EDIT your message accordingly at the Discussion Forum website and resubmit. If you need to contact the Moderators (sikhnetmod@sikhnet.com) please make sure that you include this entire e-mail in your correspondence. Thanks. The SikhNet Discussion Moderators ==================================== Moderator's Note: Ragmala was not composed by the 5th Master. If you feel it was then please provide references. Also please review the following link or do a search on Ragmala. Thanks. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....0EEC3ABF87256D3 Sat Sri Akal! Raag Maala is a beautiful composition composed by Guru Arjan Dev Ji which occurs as the concluding chapter of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Whilst literally being a “rosary†of Raags, the composition has many a symbolic, spiritual and historical meanings if one seeks to look deeper into the shabds. I am not a scholar or otherwise, but as a Sikh I have full faith in my Guru Ji and hence whilst declining to comment further on the content of the Raag Maala at present (as I would advise, from my personal outlook, to look through the numerous Shabds that come before Raag Maala –as one would expect to study a conclusion before analysing the magnificent works that have lead to the close). The only final thing I would mention is that unfortunately, there are many in the Panth, who whilst professing to be Gurmukhs and representatives of the Panth, seek to misalign Gurbani through their mischievous and malicious manmat. Notwithstanding the ongoing dilemmas and issue surrounding the Dasam and Sarabloh Granths and rehitnamas, we also have people attacking Guru Maharaj directly; in addition to cutting short the Rehras, shortening the Nitnem Banis, we also have those who see fit to cut out Raag Maala from Maharaj, tantamount to cutting the tongue of the Guru. These are the Ram Raae, that the Punj Pyare inform us to remain clear of, when administering the Rehit during Amrit Sanchar. Please stay strong...we need it now more than ever...whilst I firmly believe in unity through diversity, let us remember that Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is the central axis of “our†universe...

jtSingh, are you a drummer? Rimshots and all...

Gur Fateh! I believe the references for such recitation can be found in Pracheen Panth Prakash (Rattan Singh Bhangoo). Interestingly though, there are parts of that tradition kept as the Ardas is taken from Chandi di Var and the Tav Prashad Chaupai ("Praanvo Aad Ek..)...that said, it doesn't constitute the entire compositions agreed...there is also reference to Guru Ji placing a Chakr upon the 5 Pyare's Dastara during the Sanchar and also to Chatka et al... Lalleshvari, please do provide some back up references for these or point us in the right direction to locate them. But I must ask, do you feel it necessary for all three Granths to be in Parkash? I ask as whilst havinf faith in them, I do feel that the Sarabloh Granth in particular is of a very speacialist nature, which lends itself to those joining the Dal, however is this really needed for the Khalsa Singhs at large? forgive any foolishness in the foregoing, GUR BAR AAAAAKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLL!

Gur Fateh! No disrespect to anyone, but can we come back to the question in hand...Sarblohi Bibek, as fascinating a subject it is, is not the matter at hand here. There is another thread already set up for this topic elsewhere I believe, if not, then set one up and let’s please refrain from getting all personal and emotional –this is the biggest problem I’ve always found within Sikhs, they get all too personal with the slightest thing...Why??? It works totally to their own disadvantage... Where’s all the tolerance and calm nature gone? I know we’re Kshatriyas / Warriors, but come on...any decent soldier can tell you that getting into an emotional state messes up your line of attack/discussion/appeasement/defence....anyway, this is another issue too!!! Anyway...back to the subject: Missionaries...Bikramjit Singh has provided some interesting information on this front, which I believe we should consider. I personally hold steadfast to my earlier comments...no missionaries, but certain active promotion of Sikhi and broader understanding is mandatory...to start with, following on from the essence of Khalsa Soulja’s point, there’s no better way to raise awareness than for us to begin living ‘Gurmat’, this is the best marketing tool, the best promotion and the best means to raise awareness...all it takes is for one Sardar/Sardarni to be present in an environment to raise the profile of Sikhs... ...yes, there are many great charities set up by the Sikhs across the Diaspora, yes some Gurdwaras are involved in local charities in their neighbourhoods, but all too often all we see is Sikhs mingling and promoting within Sikhs –needs to be done, agreed...but guys, especially those in the US, come on...there are many institutions already in place that share the message of the Gurus (Amnesty International, NSPCC, Action Aid, Whizz Kid, Medical Foundation etc etc)...we really need more and more Sikh presence in these institutions...anyway... ...before drifting too far afield, the key point that Bikramjit Singh makes is the that “the word missionary conjures up images of the Christian missionaries using underhand means to convert people to their religion†...and as Lalleshvari indicates (correctly in my humble opinion) “the last thing I would like to see is SInghs going door to door asking people: Have you heard about Guru Nanak?†I too have from my cursory readings and references of the sources that Bikramjit Singh mentions seen that preachers of Sikhi have existed, but the manner has always been proactive rather than reactive, open-minded rather than mandatory conversion...Masands, Manjis, Udasis, Nirmalae, Marasis, Sikh Sangats and even Nihangs have always sought to spread Sikhi... ....in a nutshell, Udasis and Nirmalae have usually served as Auyrdvedic Doctors, Musicians, Yogic Healers whilst travelling from village to village in their deras and akaras...similarly Marasi (Musicians) would do the same with Kirtan...and Nihangs with their battlefield arts...the point being in teaching a person to heal themselves and protect themselves, Sikhi was spread...similar examples can be seen today, albeit not necessarily in the same context as these honest intentions have become subject to political and social influence as Bikramjit Singh has alluded in the closing paragraphs of his post... For quick example, consider 3HO and Yogi Bhajan, regardless of the issues surrounding this organisation (if you wish to discuss this topic please do so on the thread I started elsewhere “All that is 3HOâ€), the general approach can be traced back to that used by Udasis, i.e. teach people to heal themselves through yogic cuisine, exercise and naam simran...and Sikhi will naturally develop through influence... ...the AKJ during the 1970’s undertook a similar pattern with Bhai Fauja Singh influencing many through Nihang influenced Gatka-Khell, albeit the main target audience was young Sikhs themselves, we can see many members of the Jatha who have come from different backgrounds, albeit not as pronounced as say 3HO...again note: I am not discussing the AKJ or 3HO here, nor am I part of this movements or denying that there maybe wider issues surrounding these two groups, these are simply observational comments. Fundamentally, I do not feel that we need Christian type missionaries or Jehovah’s Witness type door knocking tactics to raise the profile of Sikhi...we can do it in our daily lives when we realise that Sikhi (Kirt Karni, Vand ke Shakna and Naam Japna) is not something to be done inside the Gurdwara alone...or indeed something we reserve when in the comany of other Sikhs or as we see all too often in the company of this Baba or that Sant... Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh to All! Pardon any harsh comments from me in this regard, but here's my gut feeling on this topic:- This is not news, this is merely the dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture -the abhorrent attitude towards the female principle, so much so that we now have a grossly unbalanced sex ratio in the region with one of the results being the rise in homosexual behaviour and incidents evident within the region in addition to increased rape cases (heterosexual and homosexual). [Note; I am not intending to begin a debate on homosexuality here, nor am I intending to exhort any homophobic comments, this is a observational comment only] I say that this the “dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture†on account of the fact that in almost every Rehitnama that exists within the Sikh Tradition, there is explicit reference to the sins of female infanticide and relationship with Kuri-Mars (those who commit female infanticide) is forbidden for Gursikhs. Clearly this tragedy has been occurring for centuries that the Gurus and GurSikhs after them saw the need to make such explicit reference owing to the widespread nature of this disease. In fact, this side of Punjabi culture is visible throughout the Diaspora; in Canada, the UK and the US, I know of many families (from purely Punjabi families to Keshdhari/Amritdhari Sikh families) who continue this attitude of detesting the female child, evident throughout the life of the girl, particularly so through her adolescent years and then when she is a finally married woman...right through to her death... ...one only needs to compare the celebrations that follow the birth of a son in Punjabi families and compare it to the feelings present when a girl is born...frankly, it’s disgusting to say the least... ...in fact the detesting of the female principle is also evident within certain supposed Gurmukh circles who through their self-concocted ideals actively seek to masculine femininity and weaken the female status, evidence of this has be easily found today in the numerous events that we have seen around us in the past year (amply discussed on this and other forums)... To add to this audacity, we find that Sikh leaders regularly fall back upon the cultural excuse when trying to justify outdated practices that are still manifest within the Panth...there is a lot more I can add on this matter...however this posting is already too long...I just hope that we can move forward from this plague and that our Leaders in Punjab take due note of what is occuring... Forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat, BIR RAS DE NAAAL... GURBAR AKAAAAAAAL! SAT SRI AKAAAAAAAL!!!!

Gur Fateh! Bikramjit Singh, I agree that your comments may irk 'some' people, however those who are acquainted with the ways of Nihangta should themselves know the truth insofar as the 'nangs' that you referred to are concerned. I would agree that the general opinion of Nihang Singhs in India is poor as for reasons you mentioned -Nihangs themselves know this -there are indeed many who don the neela bana for an easy life of fare-free rides and free food through effective begging...indeed this would form a large part of the obstacles the Buddha Dal would face in getting more credible recognition. That said, there are parts of me that feel the SGPC is likely to experience further turmoil, not necessarily at the hands of intellectual groups or Nihangs, but from various sangats (be they Jathas, Deras or just general Sangat) over the coming years as it is fast losing credibility in the eyes of many Sikhs through their recent actions...whether or not this will be enough for them to be rejected from the Akal Thakt, I couldn't possibly comment...additionally, who would realistically replace them? I don't know either... ...it's rather like the UK political solution, Tony Blair and the Labour Government have run out of steam, have continously failed to deliver, have seen severe genereal public opposition in addition to specialist group opposition increase, however are still in power simply because there is no alternative that the majority of UK voters recognise as a feasible alternative... ...I guess what temporal leaders themselves would really want is to be more like the American Model with the voting population hopelessly patriotic about warped accounts of their past history and spoonfed notions of freedom of speech, however if one so much as questions the temporal leadership, accusations of unpatriotic behaviour through to being opposition political party insiders are quick to be brandished about...that way their rule is guaranteed...just look at the differing domestic relations that Bush and Blair experience on their home grounds...this is something I see happening in ALL Sikh institutions and is something we need to be increasingly aware of... Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, Forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

GUR FATHE! Mr Singh, this quote in my opinion (and I fully acknowledge that may wrong) does not as many suggest refer to the requirement for a Dastaar and Kesh, but rather in context of the entire shabd is using symbolic reference to the two in the manner alluded to in the ealier post...i.e. Darbari Rasam...as I say, this is simply my view, but I find this quotation all to often used in this context and also in the attempts by some to justify Keski being a kakkar... Forgive any errors in the foregoing, GUR BAR AAAKKKKAAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Dear All, let's get back to the matter in hand -Buddha Dal in control of the Akal Thakt. Whatever one's views on the SGPC, one common occurring theme that is often aired by those outside of Punjab and India, is that the SGPC is out of touch with issues arising in the Diaspora...whilst this is another topic in itself, I would like to consider what the Buddha Dal have to offer, over and above the re-instatement of heritage and puratan marayada (depending on your take this matter) in the Akal Thakt... -how much influence can the Buddha Dal exhort in Punjab and India for the Sikhs at large (i.e. those not living within the Dal lifestyle), matters have changed since they were last in power and with that so too have the Dal but to what degree will they need to adapt themselves or indeed have the Panth adapt to them? -how well can the Buddha Dal relate to issues arising in the Diaspora that face the panth at large (can the presence of Nihangs in the UK and California help in this instance -are these groups consolidated?) -do the Buddha Dal have the professional means to take on power and remain free from political party influence (as the SGPC have failed to do time and again) ...I ask these questions, more for comparative purposes between the Dal 'today' and the present incumbents of the Akal Thakt...with the hope we can get a deeper look into the functioning of the Buddha Dal (and by consequence, puratan Sikh Polity) compared with the approach presently adopted by the SGPC... forgive me, if the foregoing offends anyone...hoping we can have a sensible discussion without any personal antagonism... GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Bikramjit Singh, sorry to have offended you in my post, as you will note however in the paragraph before the one you quote, I have referred to him as Arjan 'Singh' Bagrian, however I acknowledge that this was missing the second time around -not intentionally mind you, just a quick something I wrote out in my lunch break ...but as I did request from the outset, always welcome feedback and corrections were applicable, so 'Thank You' All is noted! GUR BAR AKAAAAL!

Gur Fateh, From my personal understanding (and I welcome the forum to correct me where I maybe mistaken) 'Khalsa' meaning 'pure' is a recent translation of the term (say 150 years). Gurdev Pita, Guru Gobind Singh in his Shabd 'Jagat Jyot..' uses the words 'Khalsa' and 'Nakhalas' as follows: 'Khalsa tahin Nakhalas Jano'. 'Then and only then will Khalsa be considered pure'. [shabd, Dasam Granth] What is interesting to note here is that the word 'nakhalas' means pure. So, did Guruji mean 'pure' when using the word 'khalsa'. The 'pure' translation of Khalsa came into being during the Raj, when the British, concerned at the possibility Sikh soldiers and Sikh masses regrouping against them, asked some Sikh leaders loyal to them, (Arjan Singh Bagarian et al) to explain the underpinnings of the Khalsa. Arjan Bagarian is said to have coined the 'pure' translation in order to ease British fears such that to be a Khalsa is to be spiritually pure contrary to the usual understanding of being subordinated to none (other than Akaal). [see Parasaraprashna by Sardar Kapur Singh for details of this meaning]. Forgive any errors in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

###...when the night....has come....and the land is dark....no I wont'...no I won't...be afraid!!!###

Gur Fateh Humblesikh, Thanks for your comments, I totally agree with your outlook and just like yourself, I too have had the chance to work the 3HO members closely and they are as much Sikh as you and me, and in some cases, much better –regardless, it is not for us to judge another’s relationship with Guru Maharaj. This is not what I am seeking to discuss here, as I made clear in my initial post, I still have very good friends within 3HO communities, the questions I have are on more of a ‘corporate’ level in terms of what can we individually learn and share from these experiences (hence look at the positives to build upon), nonetheless that does not mean we simply turn a blind eye to everything else. You referenced Yoga as means for people to “to reach a higher state of peace†–whist this is a rather broad statement, I’d like to state clearly that I personally have no issue with Yoga (I have practiced Hatha Astanga Yoga quite intensely in the past and would recommend Yoga as a great tool for everyone regardless of their background). I know many Sikhs have issues with Yoga and Sikhi, personally I never had, Yuktanand Singh has written a great piece on the relationship between the two and I would agree with most of his comments (I provide this a note below). That said, the only issue I have with “kundalini yoga as taught by YB†is that is not ‘real’ kundalini yoga...nonetheless, that is another discussion, I do admire 3HO’s commitment to remaining healthy and active and “kundalini yoga as taught by YB†certainly plays a role in doing so –however, let’s get real, it’s one thing practicing yoga as a tool for health (physical and mental/emotional) and quite another to make this your Nitnem alongside new age occult practices such as Numerology, Astrology etc –this as it happens, is the view of a good friend in 3HO when he explained to me his concerns with the older generation in the communities in New Mexico and Arizona. You mentioned Prof. Manjit Singh (acting Jathedar of Akal Thakt) held discussions with Yogi Ji, to influence him and his followers to follow the path of Sikhi, however I personally feel they already do follow Sikhi in essence (all live in rehit of the 5 Ks and are committed to the Amrit Vela far more than many other Sikhs) the questions I raise concern what actually happens within this framework...this is not to criticise, but to understand where these trends come from, their relevance and use today...there is a lot of underlying matters here and influence doesn’t work one way only –I’ve personally been to Sikhi Weeks in the UK during my university years when numerology was making an appearance in the lectures and this has since grown...I have no issue with people presenting such ‘technologies’ (sat nam rasayan, breath walk, numerology, yogic cuisine etc etc) but when many of these are clearly manufactured and unauthentic and come with a charge, the business motivation behind these ‘technologies’ for the ‘aquarian age’ becomes quite clear... Sorry to have offended anyone, if the forum feels this discussion is better held elsewhere, then I happily agree to having this thread removed –should this occur, those interested in pursuing the discussion feel free to PM me. I find the evolution of Sikh practice and groups fascinating, both from a historical/academic angle and from a personal angle...be it 4 Sampradya through to Niskham Seval Jatha, Nanaksar...down to AKJ, 3HO and Namdharis and Nirankaris. I am aware that critical discussions of these groups, jathas and organisations are being held elsewhere on this forum, here I’m simply interested to explore more of their lifestyles... Sat Sri Akal! Note referred to: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! As we know, Patanjali writes, "Yoga is removal of mind's noise. Then, the observer can become established in view of the Self." Gurbani does not oppose this form of Yoga. Rather Gurbani supports it. As Ranvir Singh implied, 'Raj Jog' (Pronounced, 'Joge' like in vogue) in Gurbani, is just a Punjabi version of the word Raja Yoga. I just want to add to what Ranvir Singh has already written: We should try to find the correct meaning of the Gurbani terms from Gurbani itself. We do not need extensive knowledge of Gurbani to search and see that, all the Shabads that seem to censure 'Yoga' condemn, in fact, only the physical activities and rituals touted as Yoga. Gurbani does not oppose the practice of correct Yoga that is suited for the modern people of this age. Educated Sikhs need to grow out of this phobia of the term. Practice of, correct conduct (Yama), correct diet (Part of Niyama), correct posture (Asana), correct breathing (Prananyama), control of the senses (Pratyahara), mental concentration (Dharana), and meditation (Dhyana), to name just a few, are natural elements of a truly devoted Sikh's daily lifestyle. Correct form of 'Yoga' is natural outcome of a Sikh's submission to the Guru. However, it is practiced as subservient to the practice of Naam Simran. When a sincere desire to see god is awakened inside, one cannot help practicing the above naturally. Those who condemn these components, without any practice of their own, will continue to wander off the path. Yoga exercises do not lead to God realization, per se. Most of the time they result in an obsession with the body and its functions, because they are self-directed, without submission to the Guru. Practice of different postures or some other physical disciplines as means to liberation, is not supported anywhere in Gurbani, either. Such acts only help boost one's ego. However, weights and martial arts training would boost one's ego also. Why do we not condemn them also? Yoga is condemned in Gurbani if it dominates our outlook and makes us preoccupied with the body and its functions, if it keeps us away from Naam Simran and inner Bhakti, or if it turns into a mere show of rituals. We need to regard Yoga just like other exercises, only for what they are worth, no more and no less. Humbly Yuktanand Singh

Gur Fateh! Could someone expand on the relationship between Chandi-di-Var and the other Chandi compositions in the Dasam Granth? When are these to be recited and how do they differ in terms of the recitation? Also, I'd be interested to learn more about the relationship between the recitation of these compositions and Havans, Hom or Divas (as is the case predominant within Namdharis and others). Many thanks...

Gur Fateh! "Taranas" are indeed beautiful pieces...I can't answer your question directly as I am not a scholar on any Granth, but to hear a nice piece check out Baljeet and Gurmeet Singh Namdhari's rendition of "Jhagarhrdang Nagarhrdang Bagarhrdang Bajay" on the Namdhari Faithweb site...truly amazing! "Bir Ras de naaal", GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! These are summaries of the Nitnem bani often circulated within the 3HO sangat, as of course the references to Naad, would indicate. Does anyone have links to the PAINTEE AKHREE and/or NASEEHAT NAAMAA? Many thanks...

Gur Fateh! I am familiar with this quote from YB including his references to 'fulfilling a prophecy that X-amount (I think around 800K) sikhs will rise in the West'...anyhow, back to the matter in hand...2038??? Why 2038? We have had similar predictions for 1999 (see Dr Kohli's works) and plenty of hear-say for some time later this very decade! YB has also indicated that the Sadhana he has prescribed for the 3HO sangat is the most effective for the next 20 or so years (i.e. until c. 2012)... ...and why only 5000 years? "Khalsa" will always rule...in all the ages...

Gur Fateh! Dear Forum, in particular Bikramjit and Lalleshvari, on the topic of Hanuman Natak, I'd be interested to know more about your opinions on "Hanuman" himself -a myth or a reality, if so why? Also, (open to all), I am aware of the importance he plays in the Khusti (wrestling) Akharas of India...how applicable are these 'values' for us as Sikhs? GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Gur Fateh, On Lalleshvari's closing comments, I would recommend people have a read of Ragbir Singh Bir's Bandagi Nama -fantastic intro to the man's journey through simran, where he clearly shows the difference with real Brahm Gyan and mere knowledge what it means and what it (may) take to achieve it. GUR BAR AKAAAL!