...

[1santkhalsa]

ni(n)dhaa bhalee kisai kee naahee

[Maha Kharag Singh]

the thread tying is a traditional guru-shishya thing, and there is nothing wrong with it. He is a Guru, Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is SATGURU there is a big difference, me you or any tom dickj and harry can be a guru but there is only one Satguru and that is Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj

i myself have never heard him do nindya of bhai balbir singh ji, and as per the Maharaagi Avtar Singh Ji he disagrees with him on some gurmat sangeet issues such as posture when holding a certain instrument etc that my friend is not nindya.

So what if he des sangat with Niddar Singh tera tedh dukhda?

ta je teinu baali problem ya, ill give you his number you can talk to him direct how does that sound

[tSingh]

As Maha Kharag Singh has stated, the thread tying is the norm of initiation into the guru-shishya tradition of studying any art form. You can even see photos of the ceremony in ravi shankar's book from way back when. As for the household duties, again this is a standard practice traditionally and many of the great artists of the last century (Pandit Omkarnath Thakur is an example i can think of immediately) spent many initial years of frustration doing household seva before even sitting down to learn a note.

I haven't met Prof. Ji, but I'm hardly surprised there are strongly held differences of opinion about gurmat sangeet, particularly since quite a few voices are stating their form is the most authentic. I would not consider arguments over another person's representation of an art-form unless it went into personal attack, since the focus of the criticism is the vigour of that learning of an art form. Its an issue of giving a tradition its worth through correct representation.

[1santkhalsa]

that not artistic crtiticism

[shaheediyan]

"- its not a personal attack on Professor -:

What a joker, get a life you rehit police nindak.

The thread, as stated above is an ancient Indian tradition used in many teaching systems, not just music. Professor ji himself learnt in the traditional system doing seva of his Gurdev associated with Delhi Gharana. Learn about topics before you try and start defaming personalities.

Yes, "some" of Professors shish do adhere to the tradition out of choice and learn in the traditional fashion.

He does not use his students, his students are part of Raj Academy and are employed as such, they are educated people who carry out pretty much 7 days a week kirtan seva (teaching and performing) for their love of Maharajs puratan kirtan.

He has not invented or changed instruments, all instruments used can easily be authenticated via historical drawings, literature and existing museum pieces from where the measurements, material info etc was taken. There is some experimentation with string sizes and wood depths etc due to the poor quality of existing antiques, no big deal, it's a learning process.

As for ninda of "Mahapurkh", yes facts have been stated, that does not constitute ninda. You don't don't have a clue what your talking about here so there's no point carrying on this point. For your info, Prof has met the above mentioned people and knew them very well (par Bhai Randhir Singh obviously), and questioned them personally. He had immense respect for Bhai Avtar Singh Ji, but on an academic level, artists are allowed to question and learn from each other.

Re the status of Professor, yes he is one, with a Docterate to top, not that that has anything to do anything.

Re your comments on his interpretation of kirtan, he is one of only a handful of people alive that strictly adhere to Maharajs hukmi kirtan, as much respect as I have for Bhai Balbir Singh Ji and Bhai Avtar Singh Ji, they do/did not (100%). That is where the views differed.

If you've got something to say re Nihang Niddar Singh or Professor Ji, I wil be more than happy to arrange a personal meeting so you can "release" your vehm.

Go and learn about real traditions before attacking those that try and preserve them.

[chatanga]

one guy said to me about the guru shish thing involving menial service to start with, sucvh as household duties , preparing food etc.

I wanted so much to punch the arrogant little sheet in his head !!! His Ustaad taught him for nothing, and the little sheet wanted me to hoover his house, the cheek of it!!

[shaheediyan]

"In India", it was normal, for shish to look after their Gurdevs i.e. help with morning pooja, food etc. The Gurdev would never take payment from his shish, but the shish would have to help out to earn his keep so to say.

It's not really the case any more as gharanai are slowly becoming modern and well funded, where as in the old days, the Gurdev was normally quite poor and only had his gun to offer, so the shish would make Gurdevs life easier by helping/supporting im with chores etc.

It's not a system to be mocked, it's as ancient and beautiful as India itself, the Guru would give and teach everything to his shish, sometimes even devoting more time to his students than his only children.

This ancient school and tradition of teaching was true in all fields, martial arts, sangeet, gyaan what have you.

It still exists in all these fields in India today amongst the older generation Gurdevs or traditional gharanas.

This system is not unique to India, it is the same world over in historic times.