Saints vegetarianism and vedant.

[Matheen]

Veer Ji, i have to say your latest post on your blog (vegetarianism) is not true at all......especially the comments regarding health of vegetarians. I'm vegetarian and with Guru's kirpa, health is perfect. I'm also stronger than most meat-eaters i know........lol!

Also, which Mahapurkhs were agents of the British? I'd like to see the evidence.

You also write, "Sants used to meditate in the sun, to keep warm...."(implying that this was necessary due to them being vege). Sant Isher Singh Ji Rarawale narrates how, in the mountains, it would be so cold that they had to thaw frozen Kaccherey over a fire to wear them. Cold/hot makes no difference to a Singh.

source: http://neo-sikhism.blogspot.com/2008/11/sa...and-vedant.html

One of the biggest movements in the last 150 years in Punjab has been the Sant (Saint) movement. Kahn Singh Nabha writes " the Sants are preaching eating meat is wrong, this is against Gurmat". The passive, Sant movement was patronised by the British rulers and Royal family. Many of the "great" Saints of the last 150 years were regularly visited by the British agents, and regency. Most Sants never wore a Kirpan, and were into Ahinsa, complete non-violence. This served the interests of the colonial rulers very well.

Today all over Punjab, there are an unknown number of white clad, vegetarian, passive, cultish Sants. The Sant movement originated in some respects out of the scholaristic movement of the Nirmala Sikhs. These Sikhs wore Salmon Pink, or white, and were scholars of Sanskrit. Mostly Sadhus, unmarried, they wrote books to defend the ideas of Gurmat, via giving "proof" from Vedant.

Most Sants today are unaware of their origins, and have been "reformed". As they follow the Sikh Rahit Maryada, and wear a Kirpan. Although it is fair to say, whether the Kirpan is sharp or usable, or if they know how to use it, is questionable. They do not like the Bir Ras spirit, and prefer to stay Shant. It is common in Sant deras to tell people not to read Chandi Di Var, or other Dasam Granth bani. However they do still believe it is Guru's bani.The old tradition was that a Sant could not keep worldy items, as a Sant was separate from maya. However the Sants of today put the Gangster rappers to shame, with the bling bling they have.

Nihang Sant Soorma Sahid Avatar Singh Brahma, who single handedly killed thousands of rapists, murders, and paedophiles in the Punjab police. For many years he practiced Jhatka, in the Baba Biddhi Chand Nihang Dal.

Paid off by their British masters, some Nirmala scholars condemed the practices of the Khalsa in some texts. At one point they even attempted to create the Nirmala-Buddha Dal, but lost their battle in the British court. All of these were attempts to dissolve the Saint-Soldier ideal of the Khalsa created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Gobind Singh told the Khalsa to be armed at all times, it is our right as a Sovereign Nation. " Saif Sarohi Saythee, Yahai Hamarey Pir". Shastar Nam Mala Puran. Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Passive Nirmala Sant Giani's in the traditional Nirmal Bhek/dress.

However the Nirmala Sants kept the Sikh tradition alive when the Christians nearly converted all of Punjab to Christianity. This was a great service performed by them, for the Khalsa Panth. There also have been examples of Nirmala Saints like Bhai Maharaj Singh who fought against the British. In the next few weeks, there will be a post about the life of this great Brahmgiani.

The True Nirmala Saints like Baba Nand Singh were not gristi, never took money, and spent their whole life in meditation on Akal Purukh. Most of the Sants today are a mismatch, of Singh Sabha reform, Sikh Rahit Maryada, Vedant Hindu thought, Gristi Jivan, Nirmala Bhekh, etc. Brahmgianis like Baba Nand Singh Ji spent YEARS in unbroken meditation and gurbani, and YEARS in seva. Vegetarianism was originally linked to the idea of renunication, and those not living a gristi jivan, and spending literally hours in constant simran. This was a sattvic lifestyle, and puritanical. For the Khalsa, Rajas Gun was needed, to fight in war, and to have energy to live in gristi. Instead of feeling cold, and withdrawn, and having low physical energy levels. Whereas these feelings can help meditation, it is detrimental to the body. Therefore the maryada of Jhatka existed in the Panth from the very beginning. As the Khalsa is a Karma-Yogi. Vegetarian Sadhus used to meditate in the Indian Sun to keep warm, as well as infront of fires (dhuni), to prevent colds and flu.

Baba Nand Singh Ji, on his Bairangam. In complete union with Akal Purukh.

Hindu and Jain Gujarati's are strict vegetarians, to make heat in their bodies, they add in lots of spices. In the UK many of them suffer from high blood pressure, strokes, diabetes, heart attacks etc. This is all due to their strict vegetarian, high carbohydrate, high fat, low protein diet. It increases fat and decreases lean muscle. Many vegetarians have to eat high levels of spices to keep warm. They make their health suffer., suffer from runny noses, constant flu and cold, feel withdrawn, have to wear two or three pairs of socks, and so on.

In Gristi ashram meat is allowed. This was even written by the vegetarian Nirmala Sikhs. In the Prem Sumarag Granth, Guru Gobind Singh writes about Jhatka, and what types of meat to eat, as well as the methods of slaughter. In worldy life, physical energy is required. In spiritual life, mental energy is required. The Khalsa is the middle, so therefore the Khalsa eats a balanced diet. Just eating meat, kills the energy of the mind. To just eat fruits, seeds, nuts and vegetables, kills the energy of the body.

As soon as it is possible, on this blog will be a step by step guide of how to do Jhatka, with the various bani's from the Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

[kamalroop singh]

N30 looks like your going have to start another thread!

Dietary intake and the insulin-like growth factor system: effects of migration in two related populations in India and Britain with markedly different dietary intake. Public Health Nutr, 8(6), p. 620-7.

Migration is associated with lower total, but not free testosterone levels in South Asian men. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), 67(5), p. 651-5.

Impact of migration on coronary heart disease risk factors: comparison of Gujaratis in Britain and their contemporaries in villages of origin in India. Atherosclerosis, 185(2), p. 297-306.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/328796.stm

http://www.positivehealth.com/article-abst...?articleid=1603

http://www.citymayors.com/health/heartdisease_uk.html

"University's Dr Deepak Bhatnagar. "Along with the rest of the population they should strive to maintain a healthy diet high in fruit and vegetables, whole grains, fish and poultry and low in fats and refined sugars. Specific efforts by both men and crucially women to take more exercise are also needed."

"

Some fake "Sants" were definately agents of the British. There is alot of documented evidence to show this. The evidence will come surely and slowly. Please be patient.

A Sadhu and a Sant are different practices and maryada's all together.

[Matheen]

Just read all your links, none of them say anything about vegetarianism. The claims you've made on the blog are unfounded, and I'm proof of that (as are many of my colleagues, who are involved in sports at high levels and supremely fit & healthy).

[kamalroop singh]

Do you take protein supplements, sports supplements, vitamins?

[Fauja_Singh]

"It is common in Sant deras to tell people not to read Chandi Di Var"

Naamdharis are vegetarian yet constantly repeat baanis such as uggardanti, chandi di vaar and indeed sampooran akhand paths of Sri dasam.

Mehta Chowk is a taksali dera where parkash of sri dasam is done regularly but no meat is consumed.

"whether the Kirpan is sharp or usable, or if they know how to use it, is questionable. "

This point is true of countless nihangs singhs as well who I have seen wearing standard issue sikh missionary kirpans.

"The old tradition was that a Sant could not keep worldy items, as a Sant was separate from maya. "

was Raja Janak not a Sant?

was Prehlaad not a Sant?

(Gurbani actually states Prehlad was a sant..

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਕੀ ਪੈਜ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਾਖੀ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਰਿਓ ॥੩॥

संत प्रहलाद की पैज जिनि राखी हरनाखसु नख बिदरिओ ॥३॥

Sanṯ parahlāḏ kī paij jin rākẖī harnākẖas nakẖ biḏri▫o. ||3||

He preserved the honor of Prahlaad, and destroyed Harnaakhash with his nails. ||3||)

Prehald owned possesions, Janak was a king, Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rare Vale lived amongst maya yet like the lotus flower remained nirlep.

"At one point they even attempted to create the Nirmala-Buddha Dal, but lost their battle in the British court."

I would like to see some evidence for this claim.

"They make their health suffer., suffer from runny noses, constant flu and cold, feel withdrawn, have to wear two or three pairs of socks, and so on."

I love the survey of vegetarian sock wearers - just another weird oddity of this article. I am vegetarian and I can say that I have never had to wear extra pairs of socks...lol

"In the Prem Sumarag Granth, Guru Gobind Singh writes about Jhatka, and what types of meat to eat, as well as the methods of slaughter."

This is assuming that Prem Sumarag is entirely the work of Dasme Patshah - again an unfounded claim.

"Just eating meat, kills the energy of the mind."

Why dont we worship lions, wolves and jackals they must all have still minds?

Just a question for you Singh Ji have you ever performed the act of jhatka - physically cutting off the head of an animal yourself?

This may be a personal question and please refrain from answering it if you dont want to - i'm just interested.

I find this last article disturbingly unfounded...

This is not an attack Singh Ji - you have some good articles but this whole meat eating is best just tips you on the opposite side to hardcore vegetarians.

[Matheen]

No protein supps, just lots of dairy products, nuts, dals, wheat etc. The only supplement I use very rarely, to pass a 'plateau', is creatine - the most widely used supplement in sports today.

At current body weight and for my goals, I need over 200g of protein a day (the average man in a typical western lifestyle needs much less) and it's all from vegetarian sources. The notion that you need to eat meat to stay healthy is a myth.

Most traditional kushti schools also insist that the students abstain from meat, yet these guys are incredibly strong and healthy.

If you had the full video of Akali Baba Nihal Singh Ji that you posted on your blog, you would have heard them tell the new Singhs that meat should be a last resort, and even then it should be jhatka. This is coming from a respected Nihang Singh!

[Guest]

Some fake "Sants" were definately agents of the British. There is alot of documented evidence to show this. The evidence will come surely and slowly. Please be patient.

Here is my problem with the above statement, wouldn't it be logical and polite to back up bold statements with sources instead of posting bold statements and ask sangat to wait patiently for evidences?

Most of saints in puratan times were genuine and were fauji for british sarkar. They were baba karam singh ji hoti mardan, baba lal singh ji hotimardanwale, baba aiya singh ji hotimardan, baba javala singh ji harkhowale, sant attar singh ji reru sahib and many others.

Are you talking about them? Please clarify. If yes, I woud like to remind sangat, they were not british agents or close to that. The fact that baba karam singh ji hoti mardan wale left the army when he found sri guru gobind singh ji fullfill his duties as fauji when he himself immersed in naam samadhi shows that.

just because you work as fauji in british army does not make you traitor or agent of british/enemy of the panth. I must ask you a personal question kamalroop veer, according to your personal profile details you have stated you work for Scotland Yard which is intelligence service for UK which is higher than british army. Now does that make you agent of british? does that automatically make you traitor of the panth? or does that automatically make you enemy of the panth? I certainly hope not...its quite twisted mindset to think otherwise.

[kamalroop singh]

Matheen

Kushti Schools in India take meat also. They are not all vegetarian.

You are having to take a supplement to gain strength. As you are well aware creatine levels are very high in meat, and low in vegetables. Where is the creatine from that you take? How was it synthesised? Is it a lab product, or from animals? Those chemicals that have been used to synthesis the creatine, can you be sure that they are not from meat?

The Jathedars of Buddha Dal have practiced Jhatka, the same Jathedars I have seen Akali Baba Nihal Singh bow down to. Akali Baba Kharag Singh, used to be second in charge of Buddha Dal, used Jhatka, 20 to 30 male Goats in a day, to feed the Dal. Ask Akali Baba Nihal Singh about the Jivan of Akali Baba Kharag Singh, he will tell you, that rarely a Soorma, a living Shahid was born like Baba Kharag Singh Ji.

N30:

Do not be impatient. Slowly and surely I will show the evidence. I did not say all Sants, and Sadhus are fake. Baba Nand Singh definately was a great Mahapurush and Baba Isher Singh, both were not gristi, both were vegetarian. My point being the original tradition of the Panth was those that had renounced the world were vegetarian. Those that were gristi were not. Read Gur-Tirath Sangre, and other Nirmala texts for proof. As well as countless other accounts of Jhatka, that are beyond the scope of web boards. Look in the rahitname, prem sumarag, gurvilas. Look at the accounts of the Gurus hunting, in Bhai Gurdas vara, Sri Dasam Granth Ji, then look at the injunction about meat in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, then read Rag Malar ang 1289-90 Guru Nanak Dev Ji, in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Maharaj is clear those that renounce meat are sanyas, e.g Sadhus.

As for Sants and Sadhus who came out of the British Army, that was not what was in my mind...... the Nirmale of Patiala were the focus of my attention. The movement for the Nirmala Buddha Dal started there.

Scotland Yard is not the intelligence agency of the UK. It works with terrorism, with the police etc.

Fauja_Singh:

Namdharis also do not wear a Sri Sahib. Something found in vegetarian, passive, nirmala movements of the Past. Infact Nam-dhari's call themselves Sant-Khalsa.

Mehta Chowk is a Taksal. In all Taksal's meat is prohibited. As learning, instead of physical activities like horse riding etc, are the aim. Again this fits my hypothesis.

I have clarified Sadhu and Sant on the blog. Sants are seekers of truth, or those merged into truth, or those who remember God with each breath. A Sadhu renounces. In the Sikh Panth the distinction is no longer made much, so I made a mistake. I am sorry.

Sant Isher Singh was not married, hence he was a Sadhu.

Nirmala Buddha Dal and the attempt to make it and its history is known both to the Nihangs and Nirmale, the court papers are in Patiala in the archives.

Prem Sumarag Granth has a very early Sammat. Randhir Singh placed it in Guru Gobind Singhs life. Mcleod has had to concede that the text is 18th century as well. Due to the excellent work By Gurinder Singh Mann of Leicester. It is on the internet search for it.

All the best,

Kamalroop Singh

[Guest]

For the Khalsa, Rajas Gun was needed, to fight in war, and to have energy to live in gristi. Instead of feeling cold, and withdrawn, and having low physical energy levels. Whereas these feelings can help meditation, it is detrimental to the body. Therefore the maryada of Jhatka existed in the Panth from the very beginning. As the Khalsa is a Karma-Yogi. Vegetarian Sadhus used to meditate in the Indian Sun to keep warm, as well as infront of fires (dhuni).

//

In worldy life, physical energy is required. In spiritual life, mental energy is required. The Khalsa is the middle, so therefore the Khalsa eats a balanced diet. Just eating meat, kills the energy of the mind. To just eat fruits, seeds, nuts and vegetables, kills the energy of the body.

source: pg-71 of Book- The Radiance of Complete journey to Akaal Purkh dedicated to Sant Jvala Singh Ji Harkhwaole by Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowale

Regiment 47 had many amritdhari singhs who were vegetarians and were followers of sant jawala singh ji harkhowale.

Once non vegetarian officers in regiment complained as to how vegetarians would compete with the meat eaters. General asked baba ji who answered that meat and whine destroy human power of character and truthfulness. Licentiousness weakens human spirit whereas pure and vegetarian food purifies mind which indulges in naam simran. Naam practise energises soul to become fearless. Fearless persons receive honor. Then General ordered Sikh Regiment Co to prove holy man's words. Consequently vegetarians and non- vegetarians were arrayed in opposite camps. By Guru's grace the competition was won by the vegetarian amritdharis. General got convinced that victory is by virtue of naam simran and strong soul imbued in God's love and not due to power of meat and liquor. General thanked jawala singh the priest saying our great victory is due to priestly persons like him.

[kamalroop singh]

Sadhu Sant Baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkowal is a staunch vegetarian.

I liked the story and believe Naam can beat even those who are stronger.

However that is about the power of Naam. Not about whether eating meat, or not eating meat is related to Gurmat. Passive people and ascetics do not eat meat.....simple. Like the Buddhist and Jains.

Do you remember the story of Banda's followers and Fateh Darshan, and the paper that floated with the Gurus Fateh on it

At that time, the Bisnoi, Vaishnava, Bandai Khalsa were defeated by meat eaters in Wrestling. E.g the Dal Panth, again due to the power of Naam from the Guru. Then the Bandai Khalsa still did not accept the Marayda, and a battle took place. The Khalsa Dal Panth emerged as the victors.

Gajh Ke Bullavey Nihal Ho Javey Shaheed Singho Man Nu Paveh Sat Sri Akal!

All the best.

[dhan96Crore]

The Jathedars of Buddha Dal have practiced Jhatka, the same Jathedars I have seen Akali Baba Nihal Singh bow down to. Akali Baba Kharag Singh, used to be second in charge of Buddha Dal, used Jhatka, 20 to 30 male Goats in a day, to feed the Dal. Ask Akali Baba Nihal Singh about the Jivan of Akali Baba Kharag Singh, he will tell you, that rarely a Soorma, a living Shahid was born like Baba Kharag Singh Ji.

Baba Kharag Singh is this the same one that was involved in the freedom struggle for Khalistan in the 80's?

Sounds like a soorma if its the one i think he is ive seen a few pictures of him, Kamelroop Singh can you put some chanana on his jeevan?

Degh Tegh Fateh

[dhan96Crore]

Also you state in your article that Shaheed Baba Avtaar Singh Brahma used to practice jhatka, i did not know that, was baba ji firm in his dal panth maryada beliefs?

[Matheen]

Matheen

You are having to take a supplement to gain strength.

No, Veer Ji, I don't have to. It helps once in a while - whether used by meat-eaters or vegetarians.

Would you say Sant Jarnail Singh Ji (who was ghrist) was passive and shant? What about the Babbar Khalsa? In fact, most of the Shaheed Singhs from that era were vegetarian.

There is no way Prem Sumarag was written during Guru Sahib's era.

Also, where do you obtain Jhatka in Europe/US/Canada?

[kamalroop singh]

Creatine is found in meat. It helps in gaining strength and muscle mass.

Most creatine supplements comes from liver and meat. The amino acid used in synthesis of the creatine mainly comes from meat.

High predators often fight over the liver, if they move in packs. The liver contains creatine and makes them bigger, than the rest of the animals. This happens in the case of Lions (Singhs)

Sant Jarnail Singh was not against the Maryada of Jhatka. See the Taksal Rahit. Baba Ji was an exception to the rule, I accept there are exceptions. Banda Bahadur was another exception.

As for Babbar Khalsa, can you give me examples were they had to fight, where it may have involved physical strength.

What makes you think Prem Sumarag wasnt written then?

You can't obtain Jhatka, you have to do it.

Avtar Singh Brahma was a Nihang Singh. Go and talk to the Biddhi Chand Vale Singhs. They will tell you how much Baba Ji believed in the maryada.

Like the Babbar Khalsa, and Dam Dami Taksal. The Nihangs also sought justice against those police, and army people, who raped, killed, tortured, the innocent people of Punjab.

Baba Nihal Singh Hariyavela is One example.

Baba Jaimel Singh Akali, "Rab Da Kuttha" is another example. He lived in Delhi and fought against the Indian goverment after the disrespect to the Adi Guru Granth Sahib by the Narakdharis.

Baba Kharag Singh was the mit Jathedar of Buddha Dal, I have no idea if he was involved in 1984. But he was poisioned and murdered.

At that time Baba Santa Singh was putting pressure on the police to release all the captured Singhs, and the Dal suceeded many times in releasing the Singhs of Dam Dami Taksal, and Babbar Khalsa. Even though those organisations had labelled Budda Dal as government agents.

We have an audio recording that clearly shows that Baba Santa Singh was not a government agent. The Buddha Dal was threatened by the GOI on many occasions. We will be putting up this and all the other material ASAP.

All the best.

[Matheen]

Creatine is found in meat. It helps in gaining strength and muscle mass.

Most creatine supplements comes from liver and meat. The amino acid used in synthesis of the creatine mainly comes from meat.

Sorry, that is false. I don't want to write the manufacturing process for creatine here, but I could.

Creatine is NOT found in the liver, the liver metabolises creatine into creatinine, a waste product.

The body makes its own creatine, which is why you need to cycle intake IF you take it, it's not necessary. Also, it's found in muscles, not the liver and the best (micronized) pure creatine is 100% synthetic, in fact ALL creatine supplements do not use animal products at any time during manufacture.

Off topic, though.

The point is, you stated meat is necessary for strength and bir-rass. That is clearly a false statement. Leaving lacto-vegetarians aside, there are even vegan powerlifters who would put most people to shame.

The Babbar Khalsa point was raised to counter your argument about vegetarianism and passiveness.

So, do you perform jhatka in the UK, or are you vegetarian while outside India?

Guru Rakha.

[kamalroop singh]

If the liver helps to metabolise creatine, to creatinine. Then this would also explain why those predators that eat the liver, are bigger than the ones that don't get it.

Where did I state meat is necessary for Bir-ras? Creatine in meat definately could improve a persons strength.

Who are the vegan powerlifters? What medals do they have? What are their diets? How many supplements are they on?

Before laboratory synthesis, the only place you could get this was from meat. If creatine is completely synthetic, its even more worrying. Read the point about isolating essences from plants, and balance.

All the best.

[Matheen]

The liver doesn't hold creatine. Also, if you keep taking it, the body stops producing it so vegetarians and meat eaters have the same base values, also it doesn't do anything unless you train.

The harder you train, the more creatine the body produces. I could write pages about creatine, but it doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

Your blog stated that vegetarians are passive, implying you need meat for bir-rass.

The fact remains that you can get everything you need without eating meat. In nature, the strongest and biggest animals are vegetarian.

[Fauja_Singh]

so have you actually performed chatka ?

[Guest]

Few things to ponder upon regarding your above article kamalroop:

1. You seem to suggest that if you are gristi amritdhari then you must subscribe to rajogun diet.

You are right to some extend, but if you are totally subscribe to rajogun diet, you won't be able to concentrate on naam simran, your mind will be chanchal(careless). You need mixture rajogun and satogun diet in gristh jeevan.

Guru maharaj and many of mahapursh were gristi and along bhramgyanis who were gristhi, most of them didn't subscribe to rajogun diet fully ie- they were veggie, yet still perform gristi duties just like any good husband or good wife, good father, good mother does.

Baba Sahib Singh Bedi, Bhai Maharaj singh ji, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabad were vegeterains soormai'e's who made army chew irons.

2. Sants have done parchar against meat, there is no doubt on that which is understandable because of satogun life style but they have never spoke against nihang jhatka tradition , not that i have heard of anyway. Many of nirmale sants have attended jor mela organized by budda dal nihang singhs where jhatka is performed. They respect jhatka maryada by nihangs

3. Bhai dya singh ji rehitnama put an end to this all meat eating conflict, rehitnama talks about khalsa can subscribe to any three gunas diet- sato, rajo, tamo (in jung suitation) based on their life style. They are all parvan in the panth. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave sant sipahi concept there is no doubt but its not black and white as people make it out to be. Who decides who becomes sant and sipahi or ony sant khalsa? not jev itself, its guru maharaj/akaal purkh himself decides, many sant mahapursh were immersed in bhagti in jung times/1984 terrible time for sikhs, one may question their sipahihood and call them cowards but its not up to them, its up to the hakum of akaal purkh, once we understand hakum of akaal purkh we wouldnt be discussing this, just like sant jarnail singh bhindranwale were choosen one to do seva in 1984 just like that Sri Akaal Purkh have selective seva for respective mahapursh.

4. Your commend regarding "The passive, Sadhu-Sant movement was patronised by the British rulers and Royal family. Many of the "great" Saints of the last 150 years were regularly visited by the British regency." is quite bothersome because you haven't listed any names. It's very vague and very bold statement.

If you wish to discuss your article fully, you must name them now at least you can name your sources afterwards as you asked sangat to be patient.

[kamalroop singh]

1. That is recorded in Nirmala literature

2. See various Sant literature, too many to quote that state meat is a sin, with distorted interpretations that even go against the katha from the Taksals, of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

3. Agreed.

4. Many Nirmale Sants sided with the British, and Patiala rulers, against the Khalsa Panth. Can this be explained in a few words with the evidence, no. It will probably take at least 30 pages, minimum to explain all the evidence. Use your research skills, and study what Sants were present in Patiala. While Baba Hanuman Singh and 30,000 Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa were bombarded with Canons. By a combined force from Jeend, Nabha, Sangrur and Patiala. All of whom were British allies. Then unceremoniously cremated or buried and a Gurudwara built over the top, to cover up the crime! Poetly called Dukh Niwaran Sahib. Then after this the attempts to create the Nirmala Buddha Dal. Plus all the baseless nonsense in the works of Pan.Tara Singh Narotam, against the maryada of the Dal Panth.

At Hazur Sahib after this battle Baba Prahlada Singh performed Jhatka on one of the leaders of the Nirmale, because they had betrayed the Khalsa.

If the Nirmale were not with the British, why is it in their literature, we find the first references to:

1. That Rag Mala is not Bani (Gurpratap Suraj Granth, Narotam, Cunningham told to him by a Nirmala)

2. Certain portions of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is not bani (See Cunningham, see Narotam)

3. Sarbloh Granth Sahib was written by Sukha Singh Giani, and or given to Sukha Singh by an Udasi. (Narotam, Padam)

All of the above points were taken up by Kahn Singh Nabha, Singh Sabha, and Bhasauria. The Nirmale in order to survive sold out the Guru Khalsa Panth. Why is it that the above were all written in colonial times? Why is it that nowadays, Nirmale even quote their own existence out of Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji?

The Khalsa Panth have a beautiful, poetical description of the Nirmale, however I will not state it here................

[Matheen]

:?:

[Guest]

Kamalroop singh, i think i must take your surti to basics which is saddening and unfortunate because you should know better because you are scholar of sikh dharam and i m pendu banda who are trying to do as much seva possible.

Many Nirmale Sants sided with the British, and Patiala rulers, against the Khalsa Panth. Can this be explained in a few words with the evidence, no. It will probably take at least 30 pages, minimum to explain all the evidence. Use your research skills, and study what Sants were present in Patiala. While Baba Hanuman Singh and 30,000 Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa were bombarded with Canons. By a combined force from Jeend, Nabha, Sangrur and Patiala. All of whom were British allies. Then unceremoniously cremated or buried and a Gurudwara built over the top, to cover up the crime! Poetly called Dukh Niwaran Sahib. Then after this the attempts to create the Nirmala Buddha Dal. Plus all the baseless nonsense in the works of Pan.Tara Singh Narotam, against the maryada of the Dal Panth.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji have a garden and in that garden there are different type of flowers, every branches in the tree have flowers along with thorns, in layman terms every branch have good apples and bad apples just like that - every samparda have sell outs, criminals, thugs, traitors-

Just like udasi had corrupt nairain das mahant who burned 250 sikhs alive during the time when curropt mahants were taking control of gurdwaras, just like out of nihangs- there is n a ng phoola whose crimes would take whole book, along with nihang jathedar and singhs in the past who died of excessive use of what you guys call it one of elements in panj ratani(sharab) instead of fighting with enemy, just like out of nihangs - who were stooges of congreesi sarkar in 1984 just like that- nirmale got their own share of sell outs, criminals, traitors to the panth, one of them being Mahant ala singh.

Pandit tara singh narotam didn't start contoversy over sri sarbloh granth, he wrote what was known that time.

btw, if you must insist with this, last time i checked the history source: from bhai vir singh ji pustak - it was 5 singhs, out of 5 singhs one of them being nihang who destroyed one of orginal copies of sau sakhi...hoti mardan upsamparda of nirmale on the other hand have archived orginal copy of sau sakhi given to them by this muslim premi who claimed that it was given to them by sri guru gobind singh ji.

but i don't wish to go that route, basic point being- every jatha/samparda have sell outs, traitors, criminals, one cannot use same brush to paint rest of the samparda.

I am quoting back same saying you mentioned in your blog:

People who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones at each others.

If you are independent scholar if you claim to one to be then list terrible things bad apples in nihang samparda have done as well.

[Mithar]

nirmale got their own share of sell outs, criminals, traitors to the panth, one of them being Mahant ala singh.

Who is Mahant Ala Singh?

[kamalroop singh]

Dear N3O,

I am not labelling all Nirmala's as traitors. However KEY nirmala works were employed by the Singh Sabha to change the Khalsa Maryada. That is a fact.

When Phoola started to do his crimes against humanity, Buddha Dal issued a statement. What books have the nirmale ever written, correcting the mistakes of Narotam Sahib?

Why was it that Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji was criticised by Narotam, and now readily used by the Nirmale? Have you read the pages written by Narotam on the subject?

All the best,

Kamalroop Singh

[Fauja_Singh]

The great Budha Dal Army, the Fauja of Guru Hargobind Sahib, the laadle of the Guru simply issued a statement...

Surely with all the creatine they were on they could have done more?

Budha Dal top Pathis (of aad dasam and sarbloh granth sahib) were stil aligned with poohla till the end - and head jathedars still met with him right till the end...

(I understand this is slightly humourous or comical but compared with veggies wearing 2 to 3 pairs of socks I think its valid!)