Is There A Place For The Term 'ramgarhia' These Days?-a Debate.

[gooligat]

Debate: Does the title ‘Ramgarhia’ have any place in the present Sikh world?

Some basic facts:

Ramgarhia is derived from 3 words ‘Ram’ ‘Garh’ ‘ia’

‘Ram’ after ‘Guru RamDas Ji’ the 4th Master.

‘Garh’ meaning ‘fort / castle’.

‘Ia’ meaning ‘of’

Literal meaning is ‘those of the fort of Guru Ram Das Ji’.

Historical perspective:

The first Khalsa fort erected by Sikh masons was called Ram Rauni. The fort was later called ‘Ram-Garh’. Every civilisation has had its engineers, masons, carpenters and blacksmiths……we all need basic shelter and places to worship in. Every city in the world stands as a testimony to the skills of such talented humans who have designed and built to serve humanity.

The Dal Khalsa wanted to give Baba Jassa Singh a badge of recognition for his role in the battle of RamGarh that changed the course of Sikh history….so the Dal Khalsa got together and bestowed upon Baba Jassa Singh the title ‘Ramgarhia’, with Baba Jassa Singh Aluwalia (Sultan-e-Quam) ratifying the title. The Misl of which Baba Jassa Singh was the baron, also took on the same name.

So, Ramgarhia is a ‘Dal Khalsa’ term, derived from the name of Guru RamDas Ji. I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions of its derivation.

The Misl was made up of Khalsa from all backgrounds-masons/smiths/carpenters/farmers/lubanas/hide workers/water carriers…... They were all proud of fighting for the Khalsa under the ‘Ramgarhia’ banner. Note therefore that during this golden period in Sikh history-Ramgarhia had no mono-caste connotation. It was a name of a Misl (the name just to re-iterate blessed and ratified by the Dal Khalsa) that just happened to be under the leadership of Baba Jassa Singh, who just happened to be of a carpentry background. It is also likely that those who were of different professional backgrounds learned the trades of the masons/carpenters/smiths so that they could help erect forts, build gurdwaras, make shasters and artillery, make kangas, kirpans, karas, palkees and tanti-saaz instruments. If you observe the surnames of those who served in the Misl, they reflect all ‘jaat-paats’ and therefore was truly an all inclusive Khalsa institution.

Ranjit Singh’s period.

He destroyed 360 Khalsa forts that had been erected by the Ramgarhia Misl. No doubt he considered them a threat to his rising power.

He liked the term ‘Ramgarhia’ and bestowed upon some of his bravest horseman of the erstwhile Ramgarhia Misl, the term ‘Ramgarhia Brigade’. Baba Jodh Singh Ramgarhia was his advisor for major campaigns.

East Africa

Many Sikhs who were skilled masons/carpenters/smiths left Punjab, after the British passed the discriminatory land act that only allowed ‘zameendars’ to own land. This law hit non-zameendars very hard and many fell into poverty. Zameendars often referred to the masons/carpenters/smiths as ‘goolighat’- a very derogatory phrase, akin to a white person calling someone from the subcontinent ‘paki or nigger’. The British required skilled Sikhs in East Africa, to build the railways and to build cities in Kenya/Uganda/Tanzania. Large numbers migrated to these countries.

Sikhs built the major cities of East Africa and its infrastructure. They established beautiful gurdwaras and for the first time, called some of them ‘Ramgarhia’ Gurdwaras, to honour the original Misl, but I guess also to boast that the smiths/carpenters/masons were for the first time, in a majority. However, people must have started to associate the term ‘Ramgarhia’ with these jaat paats. So whilst Ramgarhia actually means ‘those of the fort of Guru Ram Das jee’, it now became ‘masons/smiths/carpenters of the fort of Guru Ram Das Ji’.

This has lead to the modern day erroneous interpretation that Ramgarhia=tarkhans/mistrees/smiths This modern day hijacking is used by those committees who run ‘Ramgarhia’ gurdwaras, by letting them possess constitutions barring ‘non-Ramgarhias’ from the committee. This is quite bizarre because the original Misl was open to all backgrounds and indeed the surnames of the ‘hijacker’ Ramgarhia committee-valey reflect all jaat paats, a legacy of those Sikhs of all backgrounds who joined the original Misl. So the bottom line is that if you didn’t join the ‘Ramgarhia’ Misl during Jassa Singh’s time, you have no chance of joining a Ramgarhia committee if you have never been associated with the Ramgarhia Misl. How sad and a simple reflection of ignorance of ‘modern’ day ‘Ramgarhia Misl members’.

Contributions of the Ramgarhia Misl to Khalsa history.

We have seen that the term Ramgarhia is a Khalsa term…no one can deny this. The Misl built the first Khalsa fort (Ram Rauni-later Ramgarh), built the Bunga with the 2 watch towers adjacent to the Harimandir Sahib that bears the Misls name (the implications of the name are that it captures the original meaning and not the modern day implication), Baba Atal Tower, Tarn Taran Sahib, Hazoor Sahib, commenced the Shaheed Gurdwara of Baba Deep Singh and numerous other historical shrines. The Misl gave birth to great sant-sipahees, such as Jassa Singh, Jodh Singh, Tara Singh (a master of Gatka), great saints such as Baba Nand Singh and Baba Puran Singh Kericho-wale, panth-ratan puratan kirtanees such as Baba Jwala Singh, Bhai Avtar Singh, Bhai Sujan Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh and this legacy goes on in the modern day ‘Gurmat Sangeet’ revival. Much of the stone work and fresco paintings in Darbar Sahib and other historical gurdwaras was done by those who hailed from the Misl.

So back to the original question:

It is clear that the old ‘Ramgarhia’ term meant something completely different to the ‘modern-day’ Ramgarhia term.

The only way in which the ‘golden age’ Ramgarhia term can be revamped is to open up the Ramgarhia Gurdwara committees to all Sikhs.

Should the name of ‘Ramgarhia Gurdwaras’ be changed if the committee membership becomes all inclusive..this is a moot point. If all Sikhs are made aware of what the name actually means and the fact that it is a ‘Khalsa’ invention and the fact that the only surviving bunga has ‘Ramgarhia in its name; (I don’t need to remind folks that in the daily ardaas, we say ‘ chowkian, jhunday, bungay, jugo jag atal…….)-then the name can remain and every Sikh can celebrate it.

If the name continues to be an advert that means ‘nobody apart from mistrees/tarkhans/lohaars can apply for committee membership’, the result is further discrimination and further derision / mockery. The cause of the mockery lies firmly with the current committee members in all Ramgarhia Gurdwaras, who have hijacked this Khalsa term to give themselves pseudo-political prominence to simply gain personal chairs and to ultimately pervert the message of the great Baba Jassa Singh Ramgarhia. I sincerely hope that the youth who attend Ramgarhia Gurdwaras do prachar to remind the elders of what ‘Ramgarhia’ actually means and to start the ball rolling.

WJKK

WJKF

[shaheediyan]

Gooligat,

A few points:

1 - "The Misl gave birth to great sant-sipahees, such as Jassa Singh, Jodh Singh, Tara Singh (a master of Gatka), great saints such as Baba Nand Singh and Baba Puran Singh Kericho-wale, panth-ratan puratan kirtanees such as Baba Jwala Singh, Bhai Avtar Singh, Bhai Sujan Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh and this legacy goes on in the modern day ‘Gurmat Sangeet’ revival."

On one hand you are attempting to show the ignorance of those who associate the title 'Ramgharia' with jaat, then on the other hand you are associating Gursikh of a specific jaat with the title 'Ramgharia' above....

Although I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do, you are still falling victim to that which you speak against.

2 - You forgot to mention why Ramgharia, Ravidasi etc Gurdwara were created in the 1st place. It wasn't just some coincidence or fluke as you imagine. Try Singh Sabha Jat domination which discriminated against non Jats when the lovely subject of Gurdwara managment arose. Ironic, as the Gursikh who actually collected the keys to Harimandhir Sahib from the British was in fact a Ramgharia (a real one).

On a positive note - lines along jaat are being erased by the majority of Sikh youth today, so there is hope for the future.

[gooligat]

Gooligat,

A few points:

1 - "The Misl gave birth to great sant-sipahees, such as Jassa Singh, Jodh Singh, Tara Singh (a master of Gatka), great saints such as Baba Nand Singh and Baba Puran Singh Kericho-wale, panth-ratan puratan kirtanees such as Baba Jwala Singh, Bhai Avtar Singh, Bhai Sujan Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh and this legacy goes on in the modern day ‘Gurmat Sangeet’ revival."

On one hand you are attempting to show the ignorance of those who associate the title 'Ramgharia' with jaat, then on the other hand you are associating Gursikh of a specific jaat with the title 'Ramgharia' above....

Although I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do, you are still falling victim to that which you speak against.

2 - You forgot to mention why Ramgharia, Ravidasi etc Gurdwara were created in the 1st place. It wasn't just some coincidence or fluke as you imagine. Try Singh Sabha Jat domination which discriminated against non Jats when the lovely subject of Gurdwara managment arose. Ironic, as the Gursikh who actually collected the keys to Harimandhir Sahib from the British was in fact a Ramgharia (a real one).

On a positive note - lines along jaat are being erased by the majority of Sikh youth today, so there is hope for the future.

[Mithar]

The original Ramgarhia misl has nothing to do with Jaat Paat. It was a misl for all Sikhs of all castes. Just because a leader of a misl belonged to a particular caste does not mean all the soldiers in the misl belonged to the same caste. The most powerful misl of all, the Bhangi misl for example had leaders that were Jatts, yet there were thousands of Mazhabis in that misl. The Ahluwalia misl's leader was a Kalal, yet a large part of the misl composed of Jatts and Sikhs of other castes. Caste had nothing to do with it.

The British are largely to be blaimed for dividing Sikhs along caste lines. They would intentionally recruite only Jats in their regiments, ignoring Sikhs of other castes. Yet they saw how the Mazhabi Sikhs were brave and made fine soldiers, so they decided to recruite them as well. But they were careful not to recruit them in the same regiments as they recruited Jats to keep a distinction between the two, and it worked. They recruited the Mazhabis in the Sikh light infantry. Today there are enough Mazhabis in Punjab and Haryana, that if they all were to become Sikhs, there would be a huge demographic shift.

[tonyhp32]

Jat Singh Sabha domination.. that old chestnut again!

The Jats dominate the Gurdwaras because they are the majority of Sikhs. It's simple demographics and not as some try and argue some type of nefarious Jat plot to deny non-Jats the opportunity to wield power in the Gurdwaras. By bringing up the same argument and using it as an excuse to try and justify why there are Ramgarhia and Ravidas Gurdwaras you are just adding to the problem. Have you seen a Jat wield power in the Delhi Gurdwaras committee? It is full of Khatris and Aroras. Everyone is free to stand for elections, but elections are by their nature dirty and if people want to vote based on their own caste or if it isn't caste then it is region, then there is not much apart from education we can do about it.

The setting up of Ramgarhia and Ravidas Gurdwaras are less likely to be because of Jat discrimination but are based on the nature of the settlement patterns that took place in the UK. Ramgarhias who formed a majority of Sikhs who migrated from Kenya and Uganda wanted their own places and to keep their identity intact in the face of the overwhelming Punjabi Jat Sikh migrants in the UK. The Ravidas Gurdwaras are a continuation of highly political Ravidas identity from the Doaba region of Punjab which incidently has more people from the Chamar background than the other two regions.

The fact is that Singh Sabha Gurdwaras are probably the only Gurdwaras where any Sikh regardless of caste can stand for election. In Ramgarhia and Ravidas Gurdwaras only people belonging to that caste can stand for elections. Recently there was a legal case where a non-Ravidasi tried to take the local Ravidas Temple to court because of he said it discriminated against non-Ravidasis.

[shaheediyan]

Lol, get yuor head out of the clouds.

Rather than being an internet theorist, I will give you a real life example - the Hitchin Gurdwara (Herts) recently held elections denying non-Jatts membership, there was a big who haa as there are many thrkaan sevadaar there...

Like I said, things are changing, but unless you have spoken to that generation of their experiences first hand, and experienced prejudice attitudes yourself, your theories mean nowt.

dno't get me wrong, I am not saying that this discrimination was part of the SS mission statement, nor that all members are even guilty (far from it), its basic common sense, Punjabi are highly castist and prejudice people, if you deny that you must be an alien pretending to be a Sikh. When certain Jatts have got in, their prejudice has manifested in the most spiritual of places - they kept it in the 'family'.

I have seen 1st hand, these attitudes exist even in the most outspoken organisations, I have come across many AKJrs who will not entertain getting their kids married to a non-Jatt AKJ Sikh.

Your championed reformist utopia does not exist.

[gooligat]

I concur with shaheediyan.

When 1 Jat gets into the committee.......the numbers grow exponentially and before you know it..hey presto-the Gurdwara committee becomes all Jats (chak de phatay brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa).

The Hitchin situation is not surprising at all.

I too have come across numerous AKJers who exercise caste discrimination. I've had a conversation with an AKJer who openly said to me that he would never dream of getting his daughter married to a 'chumaar', but that he might ratify a marriage to a 'tharkhaan'. My jaw dropped open when i heard such awful comments.

Punjabis are very castist...no wonder the 3 HO Sikhs feel sorry for us. How can one raise ones consciousness if we continue to identify with a 'better team'? Jaat and Jot sound very similar yet how far apart they are.

Satnam Jee

[gooligat]

Shaheediyan

If all Ramgarhia Gurdwara committees open up to all Sikhs and the golden period Ramgarhia term explained-should the term Ramgarhia be retained, for all Sikhs to celebrate?

Or...change the name.....How about Gurdwara Sahib Guru Ram Das Ji (this would retain the original inspiration for the Ramgarhia title).

Who is the most senior individual in the Ramgarhia Council-I'd like to approach him to have a discussion.

I am aware of cases where some Ramgarhia gurdwaras are going to have succession planning problems because no youth are around to take on the responsibiliy from old committee members, who are ailing because of poor health.

What do you think?

[shaheediyan]

Ramgharia council means nothing. Rm gurdwara are established and maintained by individuals, they are answerable to no one, which is why most retain chairs in langar etc. The Sabha simply implies that this jaat runs this gurdwara (IMO). A good example is the 2 Rm gurdwarai in Wolverhampton - set up because original commitee didn't get on (same old).

Re succession, my theory is that the foundnig members (or whats left of them) will sell up and divi up the proceeds (where no youth can be found).

Re the name - I have no opinion. In India, there are many Gurdwarai named after great Sikh personalities like Sardar Jassa Singh, so the name is not a problem at all. The problem is the now historic association with the name.. its been tarnished, so may be it can never be fixed...

Unimportant anyhow. On a positive note, I think Ramgharia Gurdwarai have done some good due to their modern/open minded committees, in terms of always being open to hosting all types of Sikh jathaas/personalities/Sants etc, inc the famous Nusrat episode. Also, they are run very efficiently and their upkeep is very well maintained - and you don't have the usual committee wars and occassional kirpan clashes as you do in other Gurdwarai, they are more civilised. Bad note is many allow their 'rm' halls to host Punjabi wedding parties i.e. meat/sharab. The Birmingham (Graham st?) gurdwara being a perfect example. Really bad note is that I have cmoe across some Rm Gurdwarai not allowing Giani to do amrit chhakn da parchaar, even at Vaisakhi!! It might offend the sangat apparently!! This is where Singh Sabha Gurdwara are very good.

If you want to speak to people re change, you will have to speak to jathedaar of individual Guru Ghar.

[DSG]

I think the biggest problem is that , there is no standard or shall I say no one is following a standard so that all Gurudawars adhere to , The so called seva dars open the gurudawars as a charity status , where the charity commission pull the strings . They have there own constitution and I have seen , where it says you can only become a member if you belong to that particular caste ( which is completely wrong). Therefore if a memebr of the sangat stands up and disagrees with the gurudawara committee , if they are not a member they are ousted out and charity commission gets involved , the Solicitors get involved , they pay alot of money ( sanagats money) to the Solicitors etc... , the committee members and even the president , secretary and treasurer are not baptised sikhs , ( Personally I think doing this type of seva in a gurudawara , you must be a baptised Sikh as in a round aboput away you are a "leading role" in society.

Alot of problems arise due to personal conflict , thus resulting in Gurudawaras Elections , where the sangat have no say but only the members of the Gurudawara or Committee have a say .

If we think about it , they hold meetings at Gurudawara( inside the darabar sahib) , there may be heated arguments , turbans flying off etc.. isnt this beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I agree with , not having a gurudawaras name as ramgarhia , all gurudawaras should be named Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Gurudawara ( townname) , then history should be explained to all

Kema dha ja chak hay

[Mithar]

Shaheediyan, before the Singh Sabha took over from the Sanatanists, did the Sanatanists not practice caste based discrimination?

[shaheediyan]

"all gurudawaras should be named Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Gurudawara ( townname) , then history should be explained to all"

That has no basis, the names of historic Gurdwarai are associated with events or personalities - this makes them wonderful to visit and hear about!

I don't know Mithar, did they? Please give some examples and also state who fits under the snaatn category? Do Namdhari fit under it, Nirankaris... Budda Dal, who had a Kalaal as Jathedaar? Nirmale, who's invention was solely to combat the castism which gave Brahmans monopoly over God and then expound the long hidden vidya to the shudrai... Udasis - I am not aware that Udasis were only of Khatri lineage same as Sri Baba Chand ji...?

[gooligat]

Shaeehdiyan,

Are there nihungs still around who belong to the original Ramgarhia Misl and if so, do these Nihungs work as carpenters, masons or smiths?

Fateh

[valli singh]

.

[shaheediyan]

There are Thrkaan, Lohaar, Mistry Nihnags etc, but none that identify themselves as belonging to Ramgharia Misl, although some may say their jaath is Ramgharia (may say - most will not as they believe Khalsa to be their jaath etc). Ramgharia is the term/jaath used to describe the aforementioned collective.

There are Ramgharia sevadaars in Hazur sahib, whose plight is documented in the 'Master Presence' who generation after generation used to take care of the Ramgharia Bunga that was stupidly knocked down for the 300 saal celebrations.

There are also Ramgharia decendants in Amritsar and Punjab - you need to remember that the only association left with Misls is family/blood lines, nothing else.

The Misls that remained strong i.e. Sukerchakia, Aluvalia and Ramgharia, became akin to royal families, the evolution of the Misledars culture has been discussed in another thread.