Dasmesh Pita Talking About Caste Directly

[dalsingh101]

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥

जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥

Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥

ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥

When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗਿ ਪਰੈ ॥

जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम पुरख तजि तिन मगि परै ॥

Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥

ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥

They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

[amardeep]

Beautiful

However, how does this relate to the Kalki avatar section where it is written that marrying outside of caste is a bad thing?

[dalsingh101]

I thought that bit was a straight adaptation/translation of Vishnu purana?

Perhaps sometimes people mistakenly think that just because dasmesh pita caused ancient texts to be translated and adapted to inspire for dharam yudh and elucidate Hindu texts, they must literally believe in the contents?

Very interesting topic though.

Broadly speaking off the top of my head, the contents of DG seem to fall under various categories, not a single one. I mean Charitrio Pakyaan is obviously for a difference purpose than Jaap Sahib for instance. And the Shaster Naam Mala is very different in nature to Akaal Ustat.

I think we touched on what are referring to in this thread, look at Alberuni's translation, sound familiar?

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=12976&view=&hl=alberuni&fromsearch=1

Edited September 20, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

ਤਜੀ ਆਨ ਜਹਾਨ ਕਾਨ ਕਹੂ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨਹਿ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦ ਨੀਚ ਉਚਹ ਸਮ ਜਾਨਹਿ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਕੋ ਗਇਓ ਭਈ ਇਕ ਬਰਣ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ॥੭੫॥

तजी आन जहान कान कहू नही मानहि ॥ तात मात की निंद नीच उचह सम जानहि ॥ धरम भरम को गइओ भई इक बरण प्रजा सभ ॥७५॥

Forsaking the respect and honour of others, none will accept the advice of any other, none will accept the advice of any other; there will be the calumniation of the parents and the low people will be considered as high ones; there will be no fear of the religion and all the subjects will belong to only one category of the corrupt ones.75.

ਬਰਨ ਹੈ ਅਬਰਨ ਕੋ ॥ ਛਾਡਿ ਹਰਿ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਕੋ ॥੩੦॥

बरन है अबरन को ॥ छाडि हरि शरन को ॥३०॥

Castelessness will be the caste and all will forsake the refuge of the Lord.30.

ਚਲੀ ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਾਜਾ ਧਰਮ ਛਾਡ ਰਜਧਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਮਤ ਚਲਾ ॥ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਉਡ ਟਲਾ ॥੧੪॥

चली पाप की जगत कहानी ॥ भाजा धरम छाड रजधानी ॥ भिंन भिंन घर घर मत चला ॥ या ते धरम भरम उड टला ॥१४॥

The story of sin will become prevalent in the whole world and the dharma will flee from the hearts of the people; there will be different beliefs in homes which cause the dharma and love to fly away.14.

ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਐਸਉ ਚੈਹੈ ॥ ਜਾਤੇ ਸਕਲ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਹੁਇ ਜੈਹੈ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ॥੧੫॥

एक एक मत ऐसउ चैहै ॥ जाते सकल सूद्र हुइ जैहै ॥ छत्री ब्रहमन रहा न कोई ॥ शंकर बरन प्रजा सभ होई ॥१५॥

Such notions will become prevalent that all will become Shudras; there will be no Kshatriyas and Brahmins and all the subjects will become hybrid.15.

ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬਸਿ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੀ ॥ ਬਈਸ ਨਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰਨੀ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬੈਸਾਨੀ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਾਨੀ ॥੧੬॥

सूद्र धाम बसि हैं ब्रहमनी ॥ बईस नार होइ है छ्त्रनी ॥ बसि है छ्त्र धाम बैसानी ॥ ब्रहमन ग्रहि इसत्री सूद्रानी ॥१६॥

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

[amardeep]

Sorry i did'n see your reply before posting the above.

I dont think that the Kalki avatar section is a direct translation of the Puranas since it mentioned the Koran at many places. Its a rewritten edition like the Krishnaavatar and I wonder how the parts on caste is to be understood

[dalsingh101]

The implication of what you post seems to be that shudras are innately low. Is this Gurmat?

Read my last post to for likely antecedents, especially the link.

It seems a bit bizarre that SGGS ji enshrines a message which totally relegates caste, but then if the text above is accepted as some sort of literal warning/injunction for Sikhs, then we should be preoccupied with adhering to caste conventions (that too which exist only and specifically in an Indic context). Whoever established the above ideas doesn't seem to have factored in globalisation?

So is someone from say a Scottish family with a long established military history an equivalent ksyattri? Is the white chippie down the road a tarkhan? Is the farmer in the English countryside a Jat?

Does that stuff even make sense outside of India in a cosmopolitan society? Unless you believe that Guru ji expected us to freeze in time and continue the baran system that existed during their physical lifetime for perpetuity in the quom.

What jaat are converts?

PS - Just read your last post. I mean an adaptation for multiple purposes, not a straight translation. The koran is referred to to contextualise the contents in the context that existed at the time?

Edited September 21, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

Interesting questions