1699 - Khande Di Pahul

[SikhKhoj]

Thats interesting, but shouldn't stop us from doing our own research with much more sources.

[dalsingh101]

I just read that Grewal has already written numerous chapters on this subject in his "The Khalsa: Sikh and Non-sikh perspectives" from 2004 where he examines the accounts of vaisakhi 1699 in Sainapat, Koer Singh, Chibbar Singh, Santokh Singh, Latif, Khazan Singh, Acher, Banerjee, Teja Singh and Ganda Singh (probably to show some sort of evolutio in the accounts - the further away the source is from 1699 - the more details the author knows).

My mate has this book. I'll try and borrow it off him.

[amardeep]

Pleas give a review or scan some relevant pages for us

[SikhKhoj]

Yes please do.

[Silence]

I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females. Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?

Likewise dalsingh, I asked my great bibi who is still alive, shes over 80, she said females tying dastaars was small, not many wore dastaars etc, and it was even rarer to see a female wearing a dastaar when she was little, assuming 1920's. Regarding wives of nihangs, I remember hearing Niddar Singh explain regarding this...the moughals would prey on female sikhs and the kids, so the nihangs made their wifes dress in bana and a dumalla so from a distance you couldnt tell its a lady, and they wouldnt want to engage a large group of all men nihang singha because they were shit scared!.

this is actually kind of a reinforcement to my point. the very reason for Gurmukh Singh removing the keski requirement was because less and less sikh women at the time were taking amrit as they didnt wan't to wear a keski. This would tie in with your grandparent's remembering keski wearing bibia as a minority. I remember reading about the stats of the amount of women that took amrit the first time keski was made non compulsory, and it was a huge number.

also in "singha da panth nirala" by bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji, bhai sahib mentions that prior to 1900s many women did not want to wear kachera and were even supported by their husbands in this leading to many amritdhari singhs having non amritdhari wives until the panth decided only amritdharis could marry amritdharis. This tells us that we cannot really rely on any period even just before the early 1900s as a true and accurate description of gurmat practices.

As for the mainstream bibia, JD Cunningham observes, “The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress, chiefly by a higher topknot of hair.” This is clearly a reference to keski. If you see pictures of bibia wearing small keskia with chunis on top covering the keski fully then you can easily understand an outsider with no knowledge of keski rehat calling it simply a different dress with a higher top knot of hair.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Silence

[dalsingh101]

this is actually kind of a reinforcement to my point. the very reason for Gurmukh Singh removing the keski requirement was because less and less sikh women at the time were taking amrit as they didnt wan't to wear a keski. This would tie in with your grandparent's remembering keski wearing bibia as a minority. I remember reading about the stats of the amount of women that took amrit the first time keski was made non compulsory, and it was a huge number.

I'm not going to lie. I don't believe it myself. I mean, if it was such a norm you would have expected it to be mentioned in a few extant rehats, and or be found in much more older imagery of apnay.

I think bibian wearing dastaars is great but still, I don't think it was ever common practice.

Anyway, here's a great collection of Sikh female iconography posted by the legendary Freed. Enjoy.

[Silence]

I'm not going to lie. I don't believe it myself. I mean, if it was such a norm you would have expected it to be mentioned in a few extant rehats, and or be found in much more older imagery of apnay.

I think bibian wearing dastaars is great but still, I don't think it was ever common practice.

Anyway, here's a great collection of Sikh female iconography posted by the legendary Freed. Enjoy.

Fair enough but that it was a requirement to wear a keski before being given amrit, whether a woman or man is a fact. If women were not wearing keskia then it is simply that they did not take amrit until the requirement was removed in the 1920s this doesnt mean that it wasn't compulsory just because they didn't do it.

[dalsingh101]

Fair enough but that it was a requirement to wear a keski before being given amrit, whether a woman or man is a fact.

How so?

If women were not wearing keskia then it is simply that they did not take amrit until the requirement was removed in the 1920s this doesnt mean that it wasn't compulsory just because they didn't do it.

That is too big a conclusion to draw based in historical evidence.

Given that puratan female Sikh experience isn't given as much attention in historical sources as that of men, it's hard to tell conclusively.

I'm sure if goray encountered loads of keski/dastaar wearing women when they were eying up the Sikh misls they would have mentioned it in their tracts. This is exactly the type of stuff they would have noted down as 'peculiar' to Sikhs but they didn't. What you posted earlier essentially just stated that Sikh women wore their jooray higher on their head than Hindu women. Not that they wore keskis or dastaars. DO you not think that author would have added the extra few words to note dastar/keski wearing had he encountered it?

Plus I hope this doesn't become another thing Sikhs start to bash each other over? Especially as puratan evidence for it is so scant.

Edited May 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

A post from another forum:

According to whom? This is a Bhasauria initiated tradition, nothing else. Historically, as confirmed by Dal Panth, only Nihangnis would wear male dress including dhumalla - this was so they would not be identified as females on the battle field. Apart from the Bhasauria influenced <edited>, no puratan Sampryada i.e. Nihang Dals, Taksals, Sant Jathaas, Nirmalai (inc Nanaksaria, Hoti Mardan, Rera Sahib, Harkowal) and most importantly Panthic maryadai say womens keski is necessry. its simply a matter of choice today.

The case of Mai Bhago was the rarity not the commonality. In fact, it was Bibi Jis incistance on a Yodhvir lifestyle that lead 10th Master to tie a dhumalla on Bibi ji - this is why it was recorded as a reference - because it wasn't the norm.

The clothes of Mata Sundri and Mata Sahiba are still preserved in India, and they are not female cholai, but rather elegant traditional forms of dress i.e. lengha.

It's fine if one wants to choose to wear a keski etc, but people shouldn't change attempt to change history or Sikh tradition accepted by 99% of the original Panth in order to justify their Brahmanistic attitudes.

My mother and most of the Panths, have been sikhs and worn Chunis, their love and sharda does for Guru did not and does dimish in any way because they wear a chuni as per the many generations of sikhs before them. be careful before making general statements...

[amardeep]

Dalsingh:

Could you please scan the table of contents of the book and also say the origin of the current narrative of vasakhi 1699? Is it from Mcauliffe or even earlier than that?

[dalsingh101]

Might be a few weeks before I can get anything about that book up.

I think this will interest a lot of you (it's from Bhangu's Panth Prakash.)

It's remarkably similar to the modern Khalsa inaugeration narrative. Possibly an earlier source of it, note it doesn't seem to be presented as taking place on that famous Vasaikhi day.

Episode 79

The Episode of Singhs who Accepted Martyrdom

{(Satguru) picked up a sword}

Dohra : If someone raises a question (about martyrdom),

How the title martyr came to be associated (with the Singhs)?

Was this title attached to the Singhs by Guru Gobind Singh,

Or was this association made earlier by somebody else? (1)

Chaupai : This question should be answered in the way,

As author is going to narrate after hearing (from his elders).

The way the author has beard the episode from his ancestors,

He has narrated it to the best of his knowledge. (2)

Dohra : One day Satguru, Guru Gobind Singh was sitting (at Anandpur Sahib),

Seated on his ceremonial seat at Damdama holding a congregation.

A Sikh arrived there while reciting Gurbani hymns,

And presented himself before Guru Gobind Singh. (3)

Ardil : He remarked that sons of the Sikhs had lost faith in the Guru,

And that in the age of Kaliyuga Sikhs with faith had turned faithless.

Hearing this the Guru remarked that the wavering ones alone had turned faithless,

The faithfuls were still intact and flourishing well in their faith. (4)

The Sikh asked if there were any faithful Sikhs present in the congregation,

Who kept their faith in the darkage of Kaliyuga as they did in Satyuga.

That such faithful Sikhs, if any, be presented before the congregation.

So that their one glimpse would all his sins like a dip in a holy place. (5)

Chaupai : The Guru enacted a drama for defining the Sikhs,

In order to distinguish between the faithful and the faithless.

Sri Satguru Gobind Singh remarked from his sacred lips,

That he wished to put his Sikhs to a test. (6)

Then His Holiness, calling for a double-edged dagger to be brought,

Ordered the tribal black smiths to sharpen both of its edges.

Then brandishing this double edged weapon with his arm,

The Guru declared his wish to behead five of his Sikhs. (7)

Dohra : Then, in the midst of congregation which assembled there,

The Guru made an open declaration addressed to everyone.

Was there any (faithful) Sikh present in the congregation,

Who was willing (voluntarily) to be beheaded? (8)

Chaupai : Hearing these words, people felt scared (of the Guru),

While many of them ran away from the congregation.

Some of them remarked that the Guru was a hardened obstinate,

Who wished to dismantle and destroy the Sikh religion. (9)

While some ran towards their homes after hearing the Guru,

Others, on their way, were asked to return home midway.

Some met the Guru, some returned after meeting the Guru,

But none of them looked back while fleeing from there. (10)

Some remarked that the Guru had killed the sons of Masands,

And that he had been cruel from the beginning.

Finally, only Majhail Singhs, remained to be tested,

Who had the blessings of the sacred shrine at Amritsar. (11)

Bhai Gurdas1 had remarked about such faithful Sikhs,

That the Guru enacted dramatic situations to test his Sikhs’ faith.

And that those Sikhs who had full faith in the Guru,

Obeyed the Guru’s command that the Guru dictated. (12)

[SikhKhoj]

It's remarkably similar to the modern Khalsa inaugeration narrative. Possibly an earlier source of it, note it doesn't seem to be presented as taking place on that famous Vasaikhi day.

Maybe our modern narrative is based on that Granth, who knows? Its this Granth that says goats were done jhatka, something which is also quite prevalent amongst some Sikhs (especially older generation).

[dalsingh101]

You start playing around with the narrative of Vasaikhi, you are asking for trouble.

[SikhKhoj]

Hmm? I want no trouble, but what did you mean by that?

You said Granth is similiar to our current view, so I said its possible our view has mostly evolved from this one source? Besides many other Granths were discovered later (such as Guru Kian Sakhian which was published in 1980s, Gur Katha in 1993, etc).

Edited May 16, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[dalsingh101]

Hmm? I want no trouble, but what did you mean by that?

You said Granth is similiar to our current view, so I said its possible our view has mostly evolved from this one source? Besides many other Granths were discovered later (such as Guru Kian Sakhian which was published in 1980s, Gur Katha in 1993, etc).

What I was trying to get at was that anyone who challenges the accepted narrative of Vasaikhi 1699 will quickly experience grief. I almost guarantee the old 'RSS agent' tag with stick to them like glue and you'll get the usual hysteria and paranoia.

I don't know about those sources you mention. It almost like nothing supports the existing narrative then...POW...along come these accounts that are unlike all the others. The Guru Kian Sakhian provenance is hardcore murky as well, with no original manuscript.

[SikhKhoj]

Yeah, RSS agent this that haha. Just ask the same question on Sikhsangat and you'll get called anything you could imagine 'rss' 'hindu' 'admin cut' 'sanatani'.

Your right about no original manuscript of Guru Kian Sakhian.

Yeah. If Guru does kirpa I will lay my hands on gold - just need some more information and a visit to Punjab.

[SikhKhoj]

From Bhangus Panth Parkash, DalSingh linked

Chaupai : Hence forth, the Khalsa would not worship any spirits and graves of Pirs,

Nor would they be worshippers of “Gugapir Sultan”6 .

They would no longer wear saffron mark, sacred thread or lose apparel (dhoti),

Eliminating all caste distinctions, they would dine together. (36)

Episode About the Creation of the Khalsa At Keshgarh Sahib

Dohra : After thoroughly deliberating over the whole situation,

Guru Gobind Singh arrived at a firm resolution.

Thereafter, positioning himself at Keshgarh1 (Sahib),

He started making endeavours to implement his resolution. (1)

He summoned the services of learned Brahmins and great astrologers,

To make a prediction about the auspicious moment for launching his mission.

He made a selection of five sprightly youths,

One each out of the five Indian castes. (2)

Chaupai : By selecting these five youths from the five different castes,

Guru Gobind Singh created a common brotherhood of all the four main castes.

S. Daya Singh Sobti was the first to be selected from the Kshtriya2 caste,

Who was a prominent inhabitant of the city of Lahore. (3)

Dharam Singh from Hastinapur3 was the second to be chosen,

Who happened to be a Jat4 with flowing Shiva like5 locks of hair.

Mohkam Singh was the third, born and bred at Dwarka,

The place from where Namdev’s6 spiritual guide Krishna hailed. (4)

Sahib Singh, a barbar by caste, was the fourth from a place,

Which was also the abode of Bhagat/Saint Sain7 .

Himmat Singh, the water-carrier, was the fifth chosen,

Thus, the five youths from the five castes were identified. (5)

Thereafter, Guru Gobind Singh got the ‘Khandey ki Pahul’8 prepared,

By mixing sweet-candies in a bowl of water.

He stirred the sweetened solution with a double-edged sword,

By keeping its sharp edge all the time towards himself. (6)

Dohra : Satguru Guru Gobind Singh kept on chanting the true name of God,

And kept on reciting the name of God, The Creator.

He continued meditating on the timeless eternal God,

In order to invoke His grace for the success of his mission. (7)

Chaupai : First, Guru Gobind Singh recited the ballad consecrated to Bhagwati9 (the primal force),

He himself had composed this ballad for the first time.

Then he invoked the grace of earlier Nine Sikh Gurus10 ,

And beseeched them to bestow their blessings on the Tenth Guru. (8)

Thereafter he recited the thirty-two savyeeyas11 ,

Which also came out from his own sacred lips.

This war ballad “Chandi-di-War”12 was a very inspiring composition,

The recitation of which was also made mandatory during initiation ceremony. (9)

Tirbhange13

Chhand : O/ the primal force/Bhagwati/the Sword

Which is capable of making a mince-meat of the wicked;

Which is capable of decimating the forces of ignorance;

Which is capable of waging a mighty war in the field;

Which bestows its blessings on the mighty warriors.

Which protects the mighty arms from being broken;

Which ignites and illuminates the whole environment;

Which emanates an ever-steady and undiminished brilliance,

Which shines and illuminates as brightly as the sun.

Which brings about peace and comfort for the saints;

Which annihilates all kinds of evil and the wicked;

Which eliminates all kinds of sins and strife;

I have sought the protection and blessings of that Divine Power.

Praise be to that creative Force of the Universe;

Which sustains and preserves the whole creation;

Which shields and protects me as well;

Praise be to that sword, the emblem/incarnation of Bhagwati.

Dohra : Filling his cupped hands with the prepared Amrit Pahul (elixir)

Satguru exhorted the five chosen ones to present themselves.

Instructing them to face him with their eyes open wide,

He sprinkled the cupped elixir into their eyes. (10)

Chaupai : He made them recite and repeat the name of the timeless/eternal,

And bade them shout the slogan, “Victory be to God”.

Thereafter, he poured the cupped elixir five times into each one’s head,

As well as made each one of them drink five draughts of this elixir. (11)

Then he made them partake food from the same steel bowl,

In order to eliminate all distinctions of caste and race.

He instructed them to discard the four distinctions of caste,

As well as their symbolic emblems such as the thread14 and saffron mark. (12)

Thereafter, Satguru bade them to obey the following injunctions:

They would neither have any dealings with the Masands15 .

Nor with those indulging in female foeticide or smoking or being the followers of Ram Rai16 ,

For whosoever dealt with them was bound to come to grief. (13)

They must also contribute to Guru’s House as per their financial capacity,

As well as offer sacred ‘karah Parshad17 ’ to the Khalsa fraternity.

They must wear the Sikh undergarment18 and a turban on their heads,

And follow the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. (14)

Dohra : Satguru, after delivering these instructions to the chosen five,

Made them sling a sword from their shoulders.

He also made them wear a dagger-studded steel rings around their turban,

In the midst of chanting the name of eternal God. (15)

Chaupai : Guru Gobind Singh further instructed them to read Gurbani,

And meditate on God’s name both in the morning and evening.

They must also recite hymns of Anand Sahib19 and Rehras20 ,

As well as recite the text of “Chandi-di-Var”21 . (16)

They must wear a turban twice a day on their heads,

As well as wear the ordained arms round the clock.

They should go on hunting expeditions after partaking Amrit,

So that they might become well-versed in handling of arms. (17)

They should eat mutton only after slaughtering the animal with one stroke,

And desist from eating the meat of dead animals22 .

They must clean and nourish the hair on their heads and their beards,

And desist from shaving their hair with a blade. (18)

They must discard the rituals associated with their dead ancestors,

And concentrate and meditate on Guru-ordained teachings.

They must remain vigilant against those going astray from the prescribed regimen,

And award them suitable punishment for their acts of misdemeaneur. (19)

Dohra : Whatever ceremonial procedure Satguru had devised earlier,

He repeated the same procedure once again.

He begged to be initiated himself in the same manner,

From those five chosen ones whom he himself had initiated. (20)

Chaupai : After being initiated by the five initiated ones in the same manner,

He came to be known as Teacher-disciple rolled into one.

This has been the tradition from the very beginning,

As Guru Nanak had also accepted Guru Angad as his Guru. (21)

After taking of Pahul-Amrit as per Guru’s instructions,

The Khalsa Panth flourished and went from strength to strength.

It was in the year of seventeen hundred and fifty two,

That the Khalsa Panth was founded on Wednesday in the month of Vaisakh.23

[dalsingh101]

When you fuse those two narratives from PP, you seem to get today's accepted narrative of Vasaikhi 1699.

Curious.

[SikhKhoj]

Except the Amrit Sanchaar Banis and the year (1752 Bikrami - 1695 AD) all seems to be in line with current beliefs held by most of the Panth.

Personally I find this to be quite dodgy too:

He summoned the services of learned Brahmins and great astrologers,

To make a prediction about the auspicious moment for launching his mission.

Edited May 16, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

Hmm this is why you should' do to much khoj, cause your image of history seems to get shattered : (

[SikhKhoj]

*

Edited June 9, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[dalsingh101]

I just read that Grewal has already written numerous chapters on this subject in his "The Khalsa: Sikh and Non-sikh perspectives" from 2004 where he examines the accounts of vaisakhi 1699 in Sainapat, Koer Singh, Chibbar Singh, Santokh Singh, Latif, Khazan Singh, Acher, Banerjee, Teja Singh and Ganda Singh (probably to show some sort of evolutio in the accounts - the further away the source is from 1699 - the more details the author knows).

I got the book, will post it's table of contents up soon (hopefully tonight). Won't be able to read it for a good while though as I have other more pressing matters to deal with and I've got to finish a bunch of books I've already started.

[SikhKhoj]

Good to know. Awaiting the table of contents.

[dalsingh101]

Here it is:

[amardeep]

Sounds like a really interesting book