1699 - Khande Di Pahul

[SikhKhoj]

I request anyone replying to this thread to reply to the following questions, citing proofs if necessary.

1. Was the Khande Di Pahul ceremony held on Vaisakh 1699 (30th of March 1699) or an earlier date? Pyara Singh Padam says that Puratan granths give several dates, some even giving 1695 as a possible date.

2. Was there any tent where the Guru bhought the Panj Pyare too?

3. The 5 persons who took Amrit after the 5 Pyare are really the 5 Mukteh or is this just made up?

4. How many people were given Pahul? (sources estimate from 20,000 to 80,000)

5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

6. Did women get pahul? If so, were they ordered to keep the name Kaur? Did they wear Keskis / Dumalleh?

7. Did all Sikhs take pahul?

I will add more questions lateron.

I asked these questions so that we can have a more accurate views with some discussion with historical sources as base.

DalSingh, I was talking about this kind of 'research'.

Edited May 12, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[dalsingh101]

Before anyone even responds, we should recognise that itihaasik research (or more specifically textual based research) can often contradict the traditional understanding of the faith. This can cause a lot of upset (as it is seen as an attack on the faith) and accusations of being antiSikh.

[Mithar]

5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

Not according to the Buddah Dal Gutka which lists 5 Kakkars.

[SikhKhoj]

Before anyone even responds, we should recognise that itihaasik research (or more specifically textual based research) can often contradict the traditional understanding of the faith. This can cause a lot of upset (as it is seen as an attack on the faith) and accusations of being antiSikh.

Agreed.

Not according to the Buddah Dal Gutka which lists 5 Kakkars.

That is why I said 'some'. Not all Nihangs say it, but most of the people who believe in the Trai Mudra are Nihangs (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I have been getting).

[Guest zulu]

ਕਛ, ਕੇਸ, ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਨ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਿਤ, ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਾ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਭਏ॥੫॥

Kach, Kesh, and Kirpan – these three signs made followers of the Guru the servants [also] of the Lord

it should be kard...not kirpan

taken from : http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/04/creation-of-khalsa-khalsa-di-sajna.html

According to some the basic kakkars you must have on you are the above 3 at all times....

Edited May 12, 2011 by zulu

[SikhKhoj]

Also answer the others questions so that we can start discussing.

DalSingh, no replies?

[dalsingh101]

1. Was the Khande Di Pahul ceremony held on Vaisakh 1699 (30th of March 1699) or an earlier date? Pyara Singh Padam says that Puratan granths give several dates, some even giving 1695 as a possible date:

I've heard there are such discrepancies but no one disputes the event. Any differences of dates doesn't really really affect the faithful, it's more of an academic issue.

2. Was there any tent where the Guru bhought the Panj Pyare too?

I'd always thought so, but then this was influenced by oral renditions of the Vasaikhi story I heard growing up.

3. The 5 persons who took Amrit after the 5 Pyare are really the 5 Mukteh or is this just made up?

We have to establish the first source for the 5 mukte story and find some motive for making it up.

4. How many people were given Pahul? (sources estimate from 20,000 to 80,000)

Prof. Sahib Singh seems to think about 25,000.

5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

There seems to be a strong case for kesh, kashera and 5 weapons. That isn't to say that kanghay and karay weren't worn from the beginning as well.

6. Did women get pahul? If so, were they ordered to keep the name Kaur? Did they wear Keskis / Dumalleh?

We've discussed the surname thing on the forum before. It appears as if the Singh Sabha standardised the use of the name Kaur (which was used before), whilst successfully terminating the use of 'Devi' as a female Sikh surname. I've only seen a few, rare European images of female nihangs wearing a pagh, most of the surviving images of Sikh females don't appear to have them wearing keskis/dummalahs. Don't know if any women took amrit on the original day though. Later they clearly did.

7. Did all Sikhs take pahul?

There are mentions of sehajdharis in the Chaupa rehit and some cases of prominent nonKhalsa Sikhs (like Kaura Maal). This would suggest no.

DalSingh, I was talking about this kind of 'research'.

It's interesting but sometimes it just seems to lead to grief and recriminations. lol

Besides, I do believe that there is much that we probably can't establish with absolute certainty based on the surviving historical evidence, so the endeavour leads us back to fuzzyish grasp of the past. Gaps which may well be filled with oral traditions. So we have to recogise (from the beginning) that such endeavours can lead to as many questions as answers and be careful not to get distracted from the act of dharam itself, amongst all the intellectualising. Too many people do this and then start crying about loss of faith.

Edited May 12, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

I've heard there are such discrepancies but no one disputes the event. Any differences of dates doesn't really really affect the faithful, it's more of an academic issue.

Yes. But still it would be nice to know the exact date, no?

I'd always thought so, but then this was influenced by oral renditions of the Vasaikhi story I heard growing up.

What if we got all sources mentioning Amrit Sanchar ceremony togheter and then pick up the correct information?

We have to establish the first source for the 5 mukte story and find some motive for making it up.

Well, you know how some myths crept into Sikhi, that way. But yes there are a few sources mentioning 5 Muktas,

Prof. Sahib Singh seems to think about 25,000.

What does research of historical sources tell us?

There seems to be a strong case for kesh, kashera and 5 weapons. That isn't to say that kanghay and karay weren't worn from the beginning as well.

Yes. Kanghas and Karas were for sure worn. I'd give the same suggestion as before; collecting all sources mentioning Sanchaar of 1699. Sri Gur Sobha, Gur Katha, Gurbilases, Bansawlinama, etc

We've discussed the surname thing on the forum before. It appears as if the Singh Sabha standardised the use of the name Kaur (which was used before), whilst successfully terminating the use of 'Devi' as a female Sikh surname. I've only seen a few, rare European images of female nihangs wearing a pagh, most of the surviving images of Sikh females don't appear to have them wearing keskis/dummalahs. Don't know if any women took amrit on the original day though. Later they clearly did.

Can you shortly summarise about the Kaur issue? It was even used in 7th Gurus time, but I meant if the tenth Guru enforced Kaur on bibian like Singh on banday. Devi was much in use, thats true.

I agree that mostly Nihangnis wore Dumalley. Who started this tradition of normal Bibian wearing keskis? Bhai Randhir Singh? Teja Singh Bhasaur?

There are mentions of sehajdharis in the Chaupa rehit and some cases of prominent nonKhalsa Sikhs (like Kaura Maal). This would suggest no.

That is for sure. What about Nand Lal, did he take Amrit too?

It's interesting but sometimes it just seems to lead to grief and recriminations. lol

Besides, I do believe that there is much that we probably can't establish with absolute certainty based on the surviving historical evidence, so the endeavour leads us back to fuzzyish grasp of the past. Gaps which may well be filled with oral traditions. So we have to recogise (from the beginning) that such endeavours can lead to as many questions as answers and be careful not to get distracted from the act of dharam itself, amongst all the intellectualising. Too many people do this and then start crying about loss of faith.

Yes leads to grief but we got to research it. Not all printed Granths are the surviving ones. So many Rehatnamas and smaller works are scattered in libraries of Punjab, but nobody cares for that. Our history lies in museums of Britain, Pakistan, etc

The printed ones are mostly the ones the likes of Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Ganda Singh, Prof. Pyara Singh Padam, ... found, edited and got them printed. I am sure so much gems are still in Khalsa College Libraries, Patiala library etc.

[Mr Sardar]

[REMOVED]

Edited December 10, 2015 by sarbatdapala

[laalsingh]

Nice.

Edited May 12, 2011 by laalsingh

[dalsingh101]

Sarbat has to bring Islam into everything.

Nutjob.

Edited May 12, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Yes. But still it would be nice to know the exact date, no?

What if we can't with 100% certainty?

What if we got all sources mentioning Amrit Sanchar ceremony togheter and then pick up the correct information?

The nearest sources seem quite sparse in such details. But it would be interesting to see what we come out with if we combined Sainpati's Gursobha, Sewa das's parchian, Kankan's Das Gur Katha accounts (plus any other contemporary/near contemporary ones). We still aren't going to get a lot of detail about the ceremony though.

Well, you know how some myths crept into Sikhi, that way. But yes there are a few sources mentioning 5 Muktas,

I don't know anything about them.

What does research of historical sources tell us?

What if no one was counting?

Yes. Kanghas and Karas were for sure worn. I'd give the same suggestion as before; collecting all sources mentioning Sanchaar of 1699. Sri Gur Sobha, Gur Katha, Gurbilases, Bansawlinama, etc

Yes. I'm still shocked that Bhangu's Panth Parkash doesn't mention it.

Can you shortly summarise about the Kaur issue? It was even used in 7th Gurus time, but I meant if the tenth Guru enforced Kaur on bibian like Singh on banday. Devi was much in use, thats true.

Nothing to it. Seems like Singh Sabha just formalised the use of Kaur for all Sikh females, whereas before this seems to have been different?

I agree that mostly Nihangnis wore Dumalley. Who started this tradition of normal Bibian wearing keskis? Bhai Randhir Singh? Teja Singh Bhasaur?

I'd guess Bhai Randhir Singh. He seems to have had the most success in popularising it anyway.

That is for sure. What about Nand Lal, did he take Amrit too?

Thing with individual cases like that is that we can argue till we are blue in the face about it and still never know for certain. Plus for certain 'pious' types there could be no question that he wasn't amritdhari. Better than this would be to try and draw the essence of what the unquestionable works attributed to him are conveying I reckon.

Yes leads to grief but we got to research it. Not all printed Granths are the surviving ones. So many Rehatnamas and smaller works are scattered in libraries of Punjab, but nobody cares for that. Our history lies in museums of Britain, Pakistan, etc

The printed ones are mostly the ones the likes of Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Ganda Singh, Prof. Pyara Singh Padam, ... found, edited and got them printed. I am sure so much gems are still in Khalsa College Libraries, Patiala library etc.

You hit the nail on the head here. But seeing as understanding even printed 'ye olde' Gurmukhi can be very difficult for the average Joe Singh, what chance is there of reading/understanding manuscripts with larivaar writing! Any other nation would have university departments dedicated to this type of research but as usual, our lot are slack to an extreme in this area. Plus people are wary, because when apnay get faced with uncomfortable facts about our itihaas, that question the modern accepted narrative, they get upset and turn it into some sort of angry battle with serious aspersions cast on people. I can understand as on one hand as goray DO like to undermine other people's cultures in this way, but when this hostility turns internally, into yet another divisive fissure in an already a splintered quom, it makes you rue.

But yes, I'd like to see more quality translations and studies of our written heritage/history. With the fortunes received by the SGPC, I find it sad, this is not being done already. But they are hardly going to deviate from a conservative interpretation in any case.

Edited May 13, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Silence]

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section.

evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/keski-not-kes-as-the-kakkaar/

Edited May 13, 2011 by Silence

[dalsingh101]

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section.

I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females.

evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/keski-not-kes-as-the-kakkaar/

Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?

Edited May 13, 2011 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

check your emails

Edited May 13, 2011 by amardeep

[Guest zulu]

I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females.

Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?

Likewise dalsingh, I asked my great bibi who is still alive, shes over 80, she said females tying dastaars was small, not many wore dastaars etc, and it was even rarer to see a female wearing a dastaar when she was little, assuming 1920's.

Regarding wives of nihangs, I remember hearing Niddar Singh explain regarding this...the moughals would prey on female sikhs and the kids, so the nihangs made their wifes dress in bana and a dumalla so from a distance you couldnt tell its a lady, and they wouldnt want to engage a large group of all men nihang singha because they were shit scared!.

[SikhKhoj]

What if we can't with 100% certainty?

Will that stop you from research? What if the world ends tommorow? What if...

Thing is we got Granths, known or unknown, and if we get the chapters dealing with 1699 togheter, we could see the things that stick to our present day image of Vaisakhi and things that contradict our present impression of Vaisakhi.

The nearest sources seem quite sparse in such details. But it would be interesting to see what we come out with if we combined Sainpati's Gursobha, Sewa das's parchian, Kankan's Das Gur Katha accounts (plus any other contemporary/near contemporary ones). We still aren't going to get a lot of detail about the ceremony though.

We also need to finalise the dates of many Granths. I feel many Granths are said to be written much earlier than they were. Padam says Gur Sobha to be written in 1741. I don't mean to say that I agree with that, but just that there is quite some research that needs to be done.

I don't know anything about them.

There is even a Gora source mentioning them, and Padam also gives there names from various sources.

What if no one was counting?

That is sure. But there must sure be some estimates. Not that this the number is that important - more of a non-issue, but could be nice too know.

Yes. I'm still shocked that Bhangu's Panth Parkash doesn't mention it.

What does Rattan Singh Bhangu say about Khalsa sajna?

Nothing to it. Seems like Singh Sabha just formalised the use of Kaur for all Sikh females, whereas before this seems to have been different?

So you imply that Guru Gobind Singh didn't order Sikh women to adopt the name Kaur, right?

I'd guess Bhai Randhir Singh. He seems to have had the most success in popularising it anyway.

Yes he popularised it, but there must have been someone who started it if it was not the Guru who did.

Thing with individual cases like that is that we can argue till we are blue in the face about it and still never know for certain. Plus for certain 'pious' types there could be no question that he wasn't amritdhari. Better than this would be to try and draw the essence of what the unquestionable works attributed to him are conveying I reckon.

Yeah. I am seeing that these kind off Sikhs have started using names such as Bhai Nand Lal Singh recently. I hope I won't see Diwan Kaura Mal Singh in some year years.

You hit the nail on the head here. But seeing as understanding even printed 'ye olde' Gurmukhi can be very difficult for the average Joe Singh, what chance is there of reading/understanding manuscripts with larivaar writing! Any other nation would have university departments dedicated to this type of research but as usual, our lot are slack to an extreme in this area. Plus people are wary, because when apnay get faced with uncomfortable facts about our itihaas, that question the modern accepted narrative, they get upset and turn it into some sort of angry battle with serious aspersions cast on people. I can understand as on one hand as goray DO like to undermine other people's cultures in this way, but when this hostility turns internally, into yet another divisive fissure in an already a splintered quom, it makes you rue.

But yes, I'd like to see more quality translations and studies of our written heritage/history. With the fortunes received by the SGPC, I find it sad, this is not being done already. But they are hardly going to deviate from a conservative interpretation in any case.

Yes. You are right, but there must be some Singhs who can read. And what we could do is locate some of these manuscripts and get them printed. Interpretation could be done lateron. Because the thing is, people can only interpret if it is available. Nobody will go to libraries all over the world for interpretations.

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section.

evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/keski-not-kes-as-the-kakkaar/

I am not pro Keski for women nor anti (as of yet), but the paintings you showed were only of Nihangs Singhnia. And we do not argue that Nihangs Singhnia didn't wear dumallaey or keskian. The thing is that there is no proof whatsoever of 'normal' Bibian wearing Keskis or even the long cholay for that matter. I think Mata Sundris Lenghay are still preserved. I also don't like how some people have started saying that Guru Arjan Dev tied a keski on Mata Ganga's head after reciting Bawan Akhri and provide no proof.

I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females.

Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?

My great-grandmother was Amritdhari and didn't wear a Keski, nor did the other Bibian. I feel that Western Sikh youth who got into Sikhi, mostly got into it due to Khalistan issue (I myself did too, so no harm in that), but because of this feel more affinity to the Akhand Kirtani and Taksal Rehat, the former being avid Keski (for bibian) promoters.

check your emails

Dhanvaad jio, very interesting articles.

Likewise dalsingh, I asked my great bibi who is still alive, shes over 80, she said females tying dastaars was small, not many wore dastaars etc, and it was even rarer to see a female wearing a dastaar when she was little, assuming 1920's.

Regarding wives of nihangs, I remember hearing Niddar Singh explain regarding this...the moughals would prey on female sikhs and the kids, so the nihangs made their wifes dress in bana and a dumalla so from a distance you couldnt tell its a lady, and they wouldnt want to engage a large group of all men nihang singha because they were shit scared!.

Exactly, my great grandmother was born in 1902-1905 and women in her times didn't wear Keskis either.

Besides Nihangnis who fought in the battlefield also wore the same uniform as the Nihangs. Hence the Singhnis description in Naveen Panth Parkash:

Adorning weapons, chakars [quoits] and knifes they wore many [in their dumallas – high conical turbans]. Forty kilos of weapons and armour they adorned. Dressed alike were young and old women. They were strong, powerful and of great charity. Some wore dress of women. Five dressed like men [i.e. in full warrior dress]. Getting Singh and Singhnias ready thus. Sending one Sirdar with them, the Singhnia set off towards the royal palace. The powerful Singhs stood outside. All the royal women came out to see them. They [singhs] had great moustache and beards. Their eyes were full of rage and eyebrows greater. Wearing many weapons. Seeing their great form and beauty, they were as if incarnations of the warrior spirit. The Begams were astonished. Begams sent them [singhs] gifts. Saluting the Singhs, they sent them away. Then they looked at the Singhnia. They took them into their palace. They [singhnia] said, “Sat Siri Akal”. They replied “Salaam” and sat them down. Seeing their form and strong bodies. Dressed in armour and weapons. Listening to their conversation of plundering and war. And how to kill a hunt. And how to aim with bows and muskets. Hearing them, they were astonished. Under their ‘Salwars’ [trouser like garments], were ‘Kashehras’ [breeches]. Seeing their great clothes. Listening to their manly words. The Begams were astounded. The four Singhnia had a special female dress. They wore silver ornaments twenty pounds in weight. Seeing this they were awe struck. Their Salwars were twenty yard long. They wore heavy lower garments. Their top knots stood span and half high. Their Shmeezes were of special design. Their physiques were large and heavy. Seeing them the Begams were astounded because they stood unarmed and weak of body. Fearing the Singhnia they cowered to half their size. Then began discussion on religion. Singhnia dismissed all other religions. The traditions of Muslims [Turks] they called false. The way of Mohammed they said was full of faults. The Singhnia described all the atrocities of the Turks. Hearing them the Begams shuddered. Shocked they covered their mouths with their hands. Hearing of the chastity, sincerity and morals of the Singhs. The Begams spoke nodding their heads. “Singhnia you are of great fate. You move about with you husbands. We are pathetic and suffer greatly. Our life is like life imprisonment. One king has sixty wives. By marrying we are as if trapped in a trap”.’

(‘Naveen Panth Prakash’, Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, 1877, Bhasha Vibhag Publication, Pa.1151-1153)

What about the word ''Bana'' though? I feel that we are wrongly referring to the chola as bana while most Nihang Singhs did not wear it during the older days. One Taksali Kathavachak told me that only the Kakkaars are bana. What are your opinions? Did Guru Sahib order to wear us a chola? (I don't think so).

Edited May 13, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[SikhKhoj]

I will request that members from now on post Amrit ceremony quotations from any puratan Granth/Rehat they possess.

[dalsingh101]

What about the word ''Bana'' though? I feel that we are wrongly referring to the chola as bana while most Nihang Singhs did not wear it during the older days. One Taksali Kathavachak told me that only the Kakkaars are bana. What are your opinions? Did Guru Sahib order to wear us a chola? (I don't think so).

Let's be brutally frank. A lot of romanticised revisioning of the past has been/is going on amongst our people.

[SikhKhoj]

Yes thats true.

I want that accounts about Amrit Sanchaar, Kurehits and any information regarding to Kakkaars from these books be posted in this thread (if they contain). Feel free to add names of books (between 1699 and 1900) to the list or add the content under the title. If the book doesn't have ANY information regarding the above then just write 'No information'. Please note that you have to add the exact text from the book. I surely doubt some of the below books having any mention about the things we are going to research, but I tried adding all books post 1699 on Sikhi. Thanks.

* Amarnama (Dhadi Nathmal, 1708)

* Parchian Seva Das (Seva Das, 1708)

* Gurbilas Patshahi 6 (1718)

* Sau Sakhi (Sahib Singh, 1734)

* Sikhan Di Bhagat Mala (1740s)

* Gyan Ratnavli (1740s)

* Sri Gur Sobha (Kavi Sainapat, 1741)

* Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (Kuer Singh, 1751)

* Bansawlinama Dasan Patshahia Ka (Kesar Singh Chibber, 1769)

* Mehima Parkash Vaartak (Bawa Sumer Singh, 1776)

* Mehima Parkash Kavita (Sarup Das Bhalla, 1776)

* Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (Sukha Singh, 1797)

* Prem Sumarag Granth (1800)

* Prachin Panth Parkash (Rattan Singh Bhangu, 1841)

* Sri Gurpartap Suraj Granth (Kavi Santokh Singh, 1843)

* Naveen Panth Parkash (Gyani Gian Singh, 1880)

* Pothi Gurbilas Ki (Bawa Sumer Singh, 1882)

Edited May 13, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

I dont think gurbilas patshahi 6 is written that early in history. i think its written in the late 1780s...

[SikhKhoj]

I see. You may be right actually. But what makes you say that?

[kdsingh80]

My great-grandmother was Amritdhari and didn't wear a Keski, nor did the other Bibian. I feel that Western Sikh youth who got into Sikhi, mostly got into it due to Khalistan issue (I myself did too, so no harm in that), but because of this feel more affinity to the Akhand Kirtani and Taksal Rehat, the former being avid Keski (for bibian) promoters.

My Family was from Sargodha district in Pakistan and My late grandmother was quite anti dastar.In their village and around sewapanthi had stronghold and they were anti dastar for women .She told me once a woman went to Radhir singh Jatha and came with dastar after watching her the sant said" eh ki kitta bibi eh te paap hai chhetti laa dastar tera paap main apne sir lainda haan"

[SikhKhoj]

That is interesting to know. However dastar for women in no way is bad, but I am not sure it being a religious compulsion for women.

[kdsingh80]

That is interesting to know. However dastar for women in no way is bad, but I am not sure it being a religious compulsion for women.

I think in Sikhism anti,pro and neutral sect use to exist for dastar for women.That's why Akal Takhat maryada keep its optional for women.I think in late 20th century and 21st century Pro dastar camp used the ultimate weapon of gender equality and nothing can stand against this weapon .You should read some comments on Sikh sangat where hard core khalistani boys say that if dastaar is not mandatory for women then we will also not wear it