Discussion Of Line From Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib

[chatanga1]

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਸਮਿਆ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਕਾਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇਵੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੈ ॥

(In all times you are the Great Father, without limits you are the Great Father. Mahakaal's power [shatki] the Goddess [Devi] is my Mother)

The above is a copy and paste from a discussion on ss. They have closed this topic for some reason, so i have started it up here to discuss.

The 2nd line in particular I am thinking is not correctly translated. Some on ss had pointed out that the correct translation should be as such:

Had it been a devi as sikh reality is saying then it should have been deb kal ka mat hamari.It is Hamara and not hamari.

This was what i was thinking as well. In Aad Guru Granth Sahib, it says " tu mera pita, tu hai mera mata". and in this it it not refering to Waheguru as female.

Anyways, one thing that is definitely striking is that you have to do quite a bit of research/khoj into realising the beauty of Gurbani.

[Xylitol]

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a devta just a shakti of waheguru's? a collection of some of God's powers given some sort of consciousness?

[chatanga1]

im thinking it is the primal shakti rather than just a shakti with some positive attributes.

[PAL 07]

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਸਮਿਆ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਕਾਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇਵੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੈ ॥

(In all times you are the Great Father, without limits you are the Great Father. Mahakaal's power [shatki] the Goddess [Devi] is my Mother)

The above is a copy and paste from a discussion on ss. They have closed this topic for some reason, so i have started it up here to discuss.

The 2nd line in particular I am thinking is not correctly translated. Some on ss had pointed out that the correct translation should be as such:

Had it been a devi as sikh reality is saying then it should have been deb kal ka mat hamari.It is Hamara and not hamari.

This was what i was thinking as well. In Aad Guru Granth Sahib, it says " tu mera pita, tu hai mera mata". and in this it it not refering to Waheguru as female.

Anyways, one thing that is definitely striking is that you have to do quite a bit of research/khoj into realising the beauty of Gurbani.

I would say the below pad arth are wrong because in the shabad the prakaran is father and mother so they have to match. For example you cant say "father is breadwinner and mother is ugly" It doesnt match with the sentence so the proper sentence would be father is breadwinner mother looks after the household. So similarly the topic is death. You have sarb kaal and deb kaal which are the two matching.

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਸਮਿਆ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਕਾਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇਵੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੈ ॥

(In all times you are the Great Father, without limits you are the Great

Father. Mahakaal's power [shatki] the Goddess [Devi] is my Mother)

There are so many different meanings that come to mind, you cannot give meanings on a sentence without looking at the paragraph for its context. Therefore under handicap i would say In my opinion the arth are:

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

Everyones death is the father, which has no limits. The God (deb) of death (kalka) is my mother.

If the shabad was referring to devi Chandi, the shabad should read Debi Kalka Mat Hamara, but because it is written deb kalka then that would mean a male i.e, God. Although the literal grammatical meaning of deb is light.

The arguement Hamara or Hamaree is irrelevant. Both words are written in Aad Gur Darbar. For example Hamaree Pyaree Amritdharee. Whether Hamara or Hamaree it is referring to sri Guru Gobind Sahib Jee

Edited May 21, 2013 by PAL 07

[BhagatSingh]

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਸਮਿਆ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਕਾਲ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇਵੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਹੈ ॥

(In all times you are the Great Father, without limits you are the Great Father. Mahakaal's power [shatki] the Goddess [Devi] is my Mother)

The above is a copy and paste from a discussion on ss. They have closed this topic for some reason, so i have started it up here to discuss.

The 2nd line in particular I am thinking is not correctly translated. Some on ss had pointed out that the correct translation should be as such:

Had it been a devi as sikh reality is saying then it should have been deb kal ka mat hamari.It is Hamara and not hamari.

That's what it means,

Sarab Kaal is my Father. Devi Kalika is my Mother. "hamara (masculine) should be hamari (feminine)" argument does not apply, since it is hamara because it rhymes better. Look at the rest of the stanza, it follows the rhyming very strictly.

Also, this verse reminds me of:

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

There I did a lot of Tapasya (intense meditation) of Mahakaal and Kalika.

Notice that it says Araadhee (feminine, singular), not Aradhey, which would be plural and more appropriate.

[PAL 07]

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

There I did a lot of Tapasya (intense meditation) of Mahakaal and Kalika.

The above shabad has been discussed by all recent scholars (as the anti dasam brigade use this to say the false bani eugolizes Chandi Devi) and they conclude that the arth are ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ

mahakaal of kaal aradhee, the same arth go for the other shabad mentioned in the first post.

Also you use the hamara hamaree arguement. If this is right then in Aad Bani Ang 404 Guru Arjan Dev Ji is calling himself a woman since he writes Hamaree Pyaree Amritdharee. However the arth are Hamaree = God

My Beloved has brought forth a river of nectar. The Guru has not held it back from my mind, even for an instant. ||1||Pause||

Edited May 22, 2013 by PAL 07

[BhagatSingh]

1. Except that ਕਾਲਿਕਾ is one word referring to Devi Kali (also Chandi, Durga, Bhagvati). ਕਾਲਿਕਾ also appears later in DG in Chandi Charittar, Chandi di Vaar, etc, check it out.

And of course, this bani eulogizes Chandi Devi, it's called Chandi di Vaar, "An Eulogy of Chandi". Lol

I don't have a problem with that, do you?

2. ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਟਾਰੀ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Guru Arjan Dev is talking about ਧਾਰੀ (small stream; feminine, singular) of amrit. He says "My beloved stream of amrit, which the guru never denied from me, even for an instant."

(ਧਾਰੀ is a small stream like if you poke a hole in a bag full of water, what comes out is a ਧਾਰੀ)

[PAL 07]

Thank you i see you point on paragraph 2, however i shouldn't have used the term eulogize, what i meant to say was that the Anti Dasam Granth brigade say that Guru Sahib worshipped Kalki Godess and use this to flaw Dasam Granth. Personally i beleive Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee praised Chandi but were worshipper of Akal.

However as a point made by N30 Singh nirgun is akal and sargun is shakti.

[BhagatSingh]

Essentially what we are asking is who did he worship more? Because he mentions both in the above mentioned verses. So to answer this we'd have to look at the pattern in all of his writings related to Sri Kaal and Sri Kali.

Edited May 22, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[PAL 07]

Essentially what we are asking is who did he worship more? Because he mentions both in the above mentioned verses. So to answer this we'd have to look at the pattern in all of his writings related to Sri Kaal and Sri Kali.

Na don.t agree with that stop trying to assimilate Sikhism into Hinduism

[BhagatSingh]

What are you talking about?

[PAL 07]

What are you talking about?

Guru Gobind Singh Jee never worshipped kalki thats what i am talking about

[BhagatSingh]

OK we will leave it there.

Edited May 22, 2013 by BhagatSingh