Are We Responsible For First Bad Karma - Please Discuss

[das]

Every Spiritual Granth states that: We're suffering because of our own bad karmas in the previous birth and/or current birth. But just think about it: When God created everything, then we were supposed to have ZERO karma and ZERO desires, then how come we collect bad karma. Some say that God has given us Free-Will and we have used it in wrong way leading us to accumulate the bad karma. But at the same time, Free-Will is God's will in the absence of ZERO karma and ZERO desires. In other words, Free-will cannot be held responsible for bad karma (for the FIRST time).

So, keeping the above in mind:

* Are we (the Spirit) responsible for the first bad karma?

-- If yes, then what is the FIRST bad karma which leads us to accumulate more bad karmas leading us to multiple births?

-- If no, then why are we still in human birth despite not being responsible for the initial bad karma.

Please discuss but do NOT debate based upon religion(s).

Das

[Singh123456777]

We have no free will.Waheguru is the player who chooses which person does the right and which one does the wrong.

[das]

If we have no free-will, then why some people are suffering and some are enjoying? Why someone is born with disabilities? If the answer to this is God's will, then can that be a God who favors someone but punishes the other? That cannot be a GOD.

My take is: "Free Will" is like the very limited freedom of a dog on a leash/chain. In other words, there is "Free Will", although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. It is because the environments around us, the relatives around us, and the situation in which we are at the moment are controlled by our past karmas.

BUT the question still remains, are we responsible for FIRST bad karma and if yes, then what was the FIRST bad karma based upon which we are in 84 lakh joon?

[Guest]

Perhaps discourse below from sant waryam singh ji ratwara sahib book- discourse on the beyond should really help:

source: Discourse on beyond II

~ Know your Real Self ~


First descended from Waheguru (God), a transparent ray, the conscious reality, which combing with nature took the epithet of living being. Round this ray, spread a mini globe- like substance, and the ray became resplendent. This state has been termed as the first separation (isolation) of atma(soul) from god(paratma) and has been called the sheath of bliss. After this, with the coming of thinking, one automatically moves into second circle of Maya (illusion). This is Miracle of Intellect. It was named the intellect of sheath. Descending lower still, there awakened the idea of making some achievement of producing something new. Affections and allurements brought this being under their control and pushed him into countless programmes, which are ever-expanding, so that the chain is never broken. The state of mind has been called the mental sheath. One was caught in the circle of resolution and repudiation. Beyond this stage, the cosmic energy pushed it still further down and called it the circle of power or the vital sheath. This power was born out of the relationships of the illusion. After this, it assumed some form and went on assuming different forms. As Guru Maharaj has ordained-

For several births thou became a worm and a moth.
In several birth thou wert an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In several births thou became a birth and a snake.
In several births thou were t yoked as a horse and a ox. SGGS JI- 176.

This cirlce of different bodies is called "Annmayee Kosh". Kosh the sheath of food.

In this way, this pure consciousness (drop) went on amassing around it tendencies towards illusions. It forgot its real nature and completely lost thought of the fact as to Who I am, and wherefrom I have come. Not recognizing oneself as the pure (divine) light, one started looking on oneself as just the body, which is made of five elements which is subject to all sorts of ills. The wise called this circle as sheath of food. It forsook it's real state of supreme happiness and considering oneself as the being of dust, it from the time immortal, has been going through the circle of births and deaths and has been experiencing untold miseries. He has been weeping and crying and lamenting. He does not realize how could he reunited with his original source(God), Who is all truth, all super consciousness and never ending bliss; and return to his original stage. So caught in miseries, he keeps on lamenting.

[Guest]

Are we responsible for FIRST bad karma and if yes, then what was the FIRST bad karma based upon which we are in 84 lakh joon?

We don't know what was the first bad karma or good karma but there are indications actual karam- be it good or bad start occuring after soul got influenced by maharaj khel- illusion, and became- individualistic soul- jiv atma.

[das]

Beautifully stated by Sant Waryam Singh Ji, but it again points to the same question: If everything is the play of God via its forces: Mind and Maya; then why we (the separated Souls) are being punished for the deeds which we are not responsible (as a Soul).

In other words, it seems like not fair that Mind does the good/bad but the Soul has to bear the results of deeds of Mind? e.g If a small child (who does not know the way back home) is left far away from home and then on the way back home number of dramas are played (scary and good ones); the child gets lost; in this case, who is at fault? The Child without knowledge OR the Parent who intentionally separated the child from him?

[Guest]

Beautifully stated by Sant Waryam Singh Ji, but it again points to the same question: If everything is the play of God via its forces: Mind and Maya; then why we (the separated Souls) are being punished for the deeds which we are not responsible (as a Soul).

Find out who is being punished? No one...Perception of separated soul or seeing it as suffering/punished itself is illusion. No one is being punished its just nature of things in universe to have action/reaction, live and die and live again and die again- parkrti thats the nature of it since body is part of the nature/parkriti its going through its nature of change (we put good or bad label afterwards) its just change. The one thing never is punished or suffers or changes is akaal purkh vahiguroo atma-paratma which is all prevading- all in one , one in all.

Satguru nanak dev ji gave characteristic of atma-paratma (our real self) in the first maha vaak in form of mool mantra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oth5AHR2208

[das]

I agree that it is illusion, but still what we feel (Sukh/Dukh) is real as long as we're bound. We can state those things ONLY when one is enlightened, when Dukh/Sukh seems to be the same; but as long as we are NOT on that level, we do laugh and weep. This is punishment (in the limited sense) and everyone (except for enlightened ones) does feel it.

It is right that we (Soul) are God and not even separate from Him, but it is just the illusion. I'm not saying birth and death are punishment. I'm talking of the Asa, Trishna, and Chinta which do give pain on PHYSICAL and MENTAL level (even though it is illusion) e.g when watching a scary movie (illusion), we do fear and sometimes our blood pressure gets high. Now, we know that it is illusion but still our body and mental state do suffer.

So, my question is WHY we get the perception of suffering and separation even though we are not separated?

[Guest]

WHY we get the perception of suffering and separation even though we are not separated?

Our past life latent tendencies which appears and disappears like clouds under the sky. But sky - absolute reality is not concerned about clouds appearing disappearing don't even attempt to stop it appear or disappearing as it does not indentity with them as its just a witness/watcher, sky is in mast in its own real nature.

We need to ignore the clouds (all sorts of perception) appearing disappearing and be our real saroop- sky (analogy) even for 5 minutes slowly increase gradually and sponteounsly... magnetic pull/current be lot stronger and eventually be unbroken current perception of absolute reality than rest will not matter at all as one will not indentify with them- clouds appearing disappearing but only indentify with real self- absolute reality.

[harsharan000]

Dear Das,

I will not talk about the beginning, but I am going to mention about our present condition. And our present condition is such, that we, our souls are knotted together with mind, and so, whatever karma mind creates, in which ever way, soul as being knotted with the mind, suffers nad wanders in the wheel of eithty four .

Why did the Creator created this creation, this only He can answer, for that we have to go or arise ourselves to where He is, otherwise we are so limited, that even if He comes and makes us understand, we shall not be able.

This creation is imperfect, means transient and perishable, and if it has to gon on running, karmas, mind, pain and suffering have to be here, otherwise who would like to go back to Sach Khand...naturally nobody.

So many Gurmukhs, have come already...but they did not come to make this place a comfortable place to stay forever, but they came always to remind us that this place is not your true Home, your Father Akal purukh is awaiting for you, ride in the Boat of Nam, and let us go back.

But we do not pay attention to their words, rather we complicate things more and make our own rituals, comitees, rules, regulations,and thus make a stonger bond with this mayavee creation... so then let us think, how can we then ever free ourselves?

We know mind is now controlling the soul, it runs after pleasures and commits sins, this is the trap of Kal Purukh to keep his creation going on, he can not create souls, he wants his creation to go on and be populated, he does not want any soul to think about Wahiguru..so he has kept all these traps at each step for the soul: mind, maya, paanch veekar, karmas, bodies ...attachments of land, religion family and an endless list .....etc

Thanks to His Bani, we know that the only way to wash and defeat the mind is through Nam Simran, as it says: Prabha ke Simran, maan kee mael jae. The meditation on Nam, washes away all our sins. Shabad, karam kee, lekh katave , Shabad or Nam Simran, cuts the all karmas from the roots... so if there are no roots, there shall be no trees(lives, joonees), branches(bodies) and fruits(karmas)

This is the only way, but we moorakhs we think we are wise, so we do jap, tap, poojas, paaths, murtee poojas, pilgrimages, bathes at so called holy places and many other nonsense...so let us ask ourselves, are we not foolish?

We do not act as per the instructions of the Bani, but do all other things ...then we fight and kill in the name my religion, my land, my this , my that .... all rubbish.

Wahiguru is not a monopoly of any so called religion, He belongs to all, but is reached only, by those who walk as per the Bani.

And the Bani says:

1) Ik Oankar, Satgur Prasad

2) Jin Har japeeya, se Har hoeeya

and thirdly

3) Se simraeh, jin Aap simraye

This is Gurmat, as simple as that.

What, why or where is the need to complicate it, to the extent that we miss the goal, the objective of our life from our view, which is none other than Akal Purukh?

Edited January 15, 2014 by harsharan000

[das]

Thanks Neo and Harsharan for your replies.

I didn't mean to complicate things. I was just wondering for the reason to create this beautiful mess; but you've responded correctly that "Only God could answer that and we have to raise ourselves in order to understand".

I was just trying to understand why God first created Kaal and forgive his mistakes and then eventually give him everything to create the universe. It is like assigning the most merciless and corrupt person the incharge of the entire company. It is like leaving the child (Soul) in unfamiliar place and create illusions for him to complicate things but at the same time sending messengers and notes to remind him of his real home. Now, the question is: Why to create such a confusion for the child (Soul)?

Just think about the so many problems in the world: Children dying of hunger, Diseases etc. etc. etc......and this list goes on and on. We just cannot say, oh this is because they did something wrong in their previous births; we've to think about the Mind's capacity which could lead us to anywhere: either to God or to even lower junis.

God created Kaal (the controller of many universes) but Kaal attaches some bad karmas to the Soul seed in order to continue his creation; and that's the reason Kaal repeats exactly the same cycle of 4 yugas etc. So, eventually it seems (as of now - till I reach higher spiritual knowledge) like God is responsible for all of these problems.

At last I really like Atheist's comments which goes like "God solves the problem when you remember Him, but by the way who created the problem at first place?".

I understand that I AM WRONG on this and hopefully one day I will also understand from the core (not just for the sake of pretending). It was just a gussa when you see sufferings all over the world and also in normal day to day life.

"Eti mar pai kurlane Tai ki dard na aaya"

Thanks once again!

Das (NOT a Atheist)

Edited January 15, 2014 by das

[PAL 07]

Good question

What i understand is that Karma and its effect only affect the human being when he remains under the spell of the 3 gunas....

The saints are above the law of karma and so it has no affect on them in terms of sukh or dukh.

Therefore the original question is that at what stage did we come under the effect of maya and its laws

[harsharan000]

Dear Pal, your question araised, as per what stage did we come under the effect of maya and it laws...

I would say, it started below the stage or region of Parbraham, which is Braham...it is there that the soul gets its first covering of causal body in Trikuti, and is knotted together with mind; and Maya spreads her tentacles from there onwards to the subsequent lower planes; in this region is the store house of all our karmas.

Then comes the thousand petalled region or the astral region, the region of devis, devtas, angels, ... and when the soul passes through it, again it is covered with an astral body...then going still lower, when it takes birth on this gross plane, it gets another covering more on it, with the physicall bodies...

This was the description of the spiritual planes from Braham downwards, where maya, mind and karmas start their games...and from there on, the lower the plane, the stronger their effects.

Now above Braham, first is Parbraham, then Sunn, and then the purest region of permanent bliss, Sach Khand, where Satnam has His abode.

All parlay or mahaparlays ocurr up to the skirts of Sunn only. That is why, Gurmukhs, stress only on Nam, because it is only by our attachment with Nam through its Simran, that we cross each and every stage, up to Sach Khand.

We may ask, why only Nam alone can do so?

Because that Nam, as the Bani says: is the Shabad Guru , and the dhun chela, is our soul.

That Shabad is the Aad Guru, or Nirankar, or Wahiguru, which is the Supreme Power, and then when one is under the Sharan, the company of such a Gurudev, who dares to stop and question us?

That is why, if we watch carefully the Bani, we shall see only mahima of Satpurukh and His Nam or Shabad, which is the only permanent and eternal reality.

Attachment to the perishable, drags us into the wheel of the eigthty four... and attachment to the eternal alone, which is Nam, attracts us, and pulls us towards the region of purity, truth and eternal bliss.

Wah wah Sachay Badshah.

Edited January 15, 2014 by harsharan000

[PAL 07]

There is a shabad in gurbani that discusses this.....to gun kana jagat gura Jo karam name naseh, singh sharan Kat jaiyeh Jo jambruk graseh, nrip kanayeh ke Karen ek bheya bhek tharee Bhagat Sadhana page 858 - it says previous lives karma is destroyed by coming close to God

According to the book Talks With ramana Maharishi karma is the result of having bondage with the physical body, what gurmat says is dehdyaas

sant gurbachan Singh's Katha

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_09_Ang_0762-0875/079--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.%28Bhindran.wale%29--Raag.Bilawal--Ang-858.%28Bhagat.Bani%29.mp3

Edited January 16, 2014 by PAL 07

[harsharan000]

Veer Jee,

it is true, what you have said, that previous lives karmas are destroyed by coming closer to God.

But doesn´t the Bani of our Guru Sahibans say the same: Prabh ka Simran, garbh na baseh. Har Simran me Prabh aap Nirankara.

It clearly tells us, that because of His Simran, all your previous lives karmas are destroyed or burnt, so naturally if there are no karmas left, there is no birth nor death.

And so, how do we come closer to Him? Of course, by the only means of His Dhyan or Simran.

Pure mathematic logic...that is Gurmat.

Edited January 16, 2014 by harsharan000

[Guest]

Thanks Pal07 for your post, i listened to katha by sant ji that was beautiful

[harsharan000]

Whether we are responsible or not for our first karma, it is quite difficult to know at our present level of consciousness ....

But one thing is clear, we are trapped in the creation by our karmas.

On the other side, the most graceful, the most bountiful Wahiguru, gives us the method in the Bani through His Gurmukhs, to cut that bondage from the roots, and make ourselves free once and forever.

And that as per the Bani is: Shabad, karam kee lekh kataveh.

Means, He is telling us: attach yourself to the Shabad, through its "kamaee", so that you can free yourself once and forever, by breaking the chains of karmas, which hold you prisoner in this creation.

This is His wadeeayee, for what purpose we are here, we are not able to understand it now; but it is quite evident, that He is giving us the right directions through His beloved Gurmukhs, to get out of this "mayavee creation, and return back to our Nijh Ghar, Sach Khand.

Waheguru!

Edited January 25, 2014 by harsharan000