sanatan sikh Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) The visits to Hardwar were never regular and only took place when persons who were recent converts to Sikhi would keep up their ancestral routine of visiting Hardwar and getting the Pandas to record their visits. However when Sikhs were in the Doab to collect Rakhi or during the Kumbh then Sikh Rajas would attend with their armies. There is an instance of one such visit in 1796 which didn't end too well for the Hindus. http://gt1588.com/iwitness-attack-on-fakirs-1796/ One of the amusing thing here is the way the Hindus have been posting videos of a minor sword fight at Durbar Sahib to show Sikhs in a bad light yet their Kumbh Mela resulted in violence between various sadhu groups in which thousands have been killed. Tony, read this :http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/sikhs-not-hindus.html Edited October 28, 2014 by sanatan sikh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Who told you that they invoke Devtas and Devis ? In your case then the mention of Isher , Brahma and Parbati mai would also be sacrilege. They wont mean anything to you since you are not literate on it ..tell me the meaning of Rahaao..Aril, Bhagvati Chhand, if you are too learned then. Sorry but I don't understand to whom are you referring to in your first question. Mentioning of brahma, parbatimai is in no way sacrilege to sikhs, but we don't worship them. As far as hindu mantras are concerned I am a sikh so I have no desire to learn mantras outside of sikhee. I don't read vedas,puranas or upnishads. I know you can purchase them translated in English. Please note, I have just discovered the sikh religion and I am still learning. As to your last query I have a link you can visit. I find this link very helpful and it does have all the meanings of Rahaao, Bhagvati Chhand and many more Chhands and Aril too. It is been interesting communicating with you and I have learnt something new today about Sanatan Sikhism, I never knew before that it existed. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/The_Encyclopedia_of_Sikhism Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Good ..better do your homework...then accuse any Religion Sorry but I don't understand to whom are you referring to in your first question. Mentioning of brahma, parbatimai is in no way sacrilege to sikhs, but we don't worship them. As far as hindu mantras are concerned I am a sikh so I have no desire to learn mantras outside of sikhee. I don't read vedas,puranas or upnishads. I know you can purchase them translated in English. Please note, I have just discovered the sikh religion and I am still learning. As to your last query I have a link you can visit. I find this link very helpful and it does have all the meanings of Rahaao, Bhagvati Chhand and many more Chhands and Aril too. It is been interesting communicating with you and I have learnt something new today about Sanatan Sikhism, I never knew before that it existed. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/The_Encyclopedia_of_Sikhism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Good ..better do your homework...then accuse any Religion Excuse me....when did I 'accuse' any religion? Can you show me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Read your posts Excuse me....when did I 'accuse' any religion? Can you show me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 This is accusation Monotheism and polytheism are million of worlds apart. There is no mention of trinity in Sikh religion. The wonderful Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji invokes only one IK ONKAAR. Sikhs do not invoke the agni, the wind, the water, the stones or anything else when they start their spiritual journey. They only invoke Ik Onkaar, Sat Naam, Karta Purukh, Nirbow, Nirwair, Akaal Murat, Ajooni, Sahibang, Gurprasaad, Jap. All hindu mantras are insignificant and don't mean anything to a devout sikh. There are no pakhands and pujas in Sikh religion. No karwachoths, monday fast, tuesday fast, wednesday fast etc. No feeding of the dead relatives or kanjkaas. No wearing of a red thread on your wrists to signify you are a brahmin either. The great Sikh religion is a very straightforward and simple religion. It has done away with all the pakhands and pujas that existed at the time of the first Guru Sahiban ji. There are no similarities in any shape or form in this wonderful Chardi Kalaan religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Reference to something that people like you would just want to demonise...Read the Uggardanti baani..Bachiter Natak,,,Chandi Charitar Ukat Bilas....if that is not invocation then i think you want to discover your own definition. Ram katha jug jug atal. Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara. Sagri puri samet ... This is respect to the Avatar ..Even though we worship Akaal ... You are kidding us yes? refering to the Tri-Devs is the same as invoking them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 You worship the idol made of paper and the Hindu worships the idol made of stone or wood ..this is the basic difference ...whether you want to accept it or not .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) This is accusation Why is this an 'accusation?' I don't honestly understand your meaning. The great Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not have eyes,nose ears limbs and other features assoiciated with idols made of stones. It is without human features, plus it is not painted. Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 If not always then many times or was the address to Ayodhya printed wrong !!! You can take it two ways, either understand the context in which Gurbani is refering to these icons, or follow what the hindus beleive and think that "Ram" is always and only refering to Bhagwan Shri Ram Chander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Everything in my posts have been said as a Sikh. So where is the problem. No we don't believe in idoltry. The SGGS is surely convered with Rumaallas, but they don't have any physical features like the hindu idols do. So where is the problem? As a Sikh we are not to fast, no karvachoth varat either. We don't conduct the havan, So what is so contradictory? I am just telling you about my Sikh beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) There is no such thing as hinduism that was british invention, orginal is called snatan dhrama which is not religion in a organized form...many scholars came to same conclusion- read scholar thesis and make up your mind----came to same conclusion that umbrella of spiritual orders cannot be labeled as religion or organized in form of religion but umbrella of spiritual orders are part of Snatan(eternal) dharma since sikhi incorporates or have all spiritual orders -includes all the spiritual orders as from aad sach everything orginated from to begin with...sikh dharma are true/ultimate heir of snatan dharma as it source of all- includes all, talks to indic all spiritual school of thoughts along with essence of sikhi/sat enshrined in our mool mantra- aad such jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach. Please note i m not talking about sikh community in general, as far as i m concenred they are just as petty as everyone else with lot of chances of improvement..when it comes to sikh theology its find its roots right in mool mantra not just date or time- aad sach (before beginning-eternal-snatan) jugad sach (from all the ages is true) hai bhi sach ( true now) nanak hosi bhi sach ( nanak says- will be true forever). Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion. The Mool Mantra and the Gurmantra are the only two mantras we have in Sikhism, are you implying there are more? If so, which ones? Why are you attaching the word 'sanatan' with Sikhee? Did Guru Nanak dev ji not communicate to hindus and muslims that he belongs to neither of them? So, why are you connecting the hindu word 'sanatan' with Sikhee. Why are you deliberately confusing the two religions by conflating them? What is your goal? What is your aim? I don't really understand the aims and goals of this forum. I have seen no objection emanating from your quarters when people on this very forum were making a right mockery of the Sacred Sikh Ardas. They were questioning its effectiveness, as to how it manages to reach Vaheguru when the hindu pundits/brahmins were told they were wasting their time sending water to their departed relatives? There was a long discussion on this point and I witnessed many insults thrown at the Sacred Sikh Ardas and you did nothing to try and stop it. On another occasion someone on this very forum made a huge mockery of the Sikh way of worshipping their much revered Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was labelled by someone here as a 'ritual or idol worship.' This very person also supplied us with a youtube video clip. Do you not think that this can amount to huge beadbi for the Sikhs that are visiting this forum? Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amandeep Hindustani Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion. The Mool Mantra and the Gurmantra are the only two mantras we have in Sikhism, are you implying there are more? If so, which ones? Why are you attaching the word 'sanatan' with Sikhee? Did Guru Nanak dev ji not communicate to hindus and muslims that he belongs to neither of them? So, why are you connecting the hindu word 'sanatan' with Sikhee. Why are you deliberately confusing the two religions by conflating them? What is your goal? What is your aim? I don't really understand the aims and goals of this forum. I have seen no objection emanating from your quarters when people on this very forum were making a right mockery of the Sacred Sikh Ardas. They were questioning its effectiveness, as to how it manages to reach Vaheguru when the hindu pundits/brahmins were told they were wasting their time sending water to their departed relatives? There was a long discussion on this point and I witnessed many insults thrown at the Sacred Sikh Ardas and you did nothing to try and stop it. On another occasion someone on this very forum made a huge mockery of the Sikh way of worshipping their much revered Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was labelled by someone here as a 'ritual or idol worship.' This very person also supplied us with a youtube video clip. Do you not think that this can amount to huge beadbi for the Sikhs that are visiting this forum? There was no insult towards the sikh ardas. And what meant by ardas also includes poojas, havens, namaz, prayer or whatever words you want to call it. I will reiterate my point. It's all faith. It's between the individual and his deity and cannot be proven or disproven. I have seen that water issue being used to bash other religions. Let be known no religion can be free of empty rituals. What it's about is nitpicking other people to make yourself feel better. But you forget it can be done to yourself as well. But hopefully you get my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion. The Mool Mantra and the Gurmantra are the only two mantras we have in Sikhism, are you implying there are more? If so, which ones? Why are you attaching the word 'sanatan' with Sikhee? Did Guru Nanak dev ji not communicate to hindus and muslims that he belongs to neither of them? So, why are you connecting the hindu word 'sanatan' with Sikhee. Why are you deliberately confusing the two religions by conflating them? What is your goal? What is your aim? I don't really understand the aims and goals of this forum. I have seen no objection emanating from your quarters when people on this very forum were making a right mockery of the Sacred Sikh Ardas. They were questioning its effectiveness, as to how it manages to reach Vaheguru when the hindu pundits/brahmins were told they were wasting their time sending water to their departed relatives? There was a long discussion on this point and I witnessed many insults thrown at the Sacred Sikh Ardas and you did nothing to try and stop it. On another occasion someone on this very forum made a huge mockery of the Sikh way of worshipping their much revered Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was labelled by someone here as a 'ritual or idol worship.' This very person also supplied us with a youtube video clip. Do you not think that this can amount to huge beadbi for the Sikhs that are visiting this forum? N30 Singh, You must have read my post by now. Can you please reply? Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 You worship the idol made of paper and the Hindu worships the idol made of stone or wood ..this is the basic difference ...whether you want to accept it or not .. For someone who claims to be a Sikh you do not have much knowledge of Sikhi. Guru Gobind Singh states in Zafarnama that the Hill Rajas are idol worshippers and that he is a 'But Shikan' or Idol smasher. How does that then square with your equating the Guru Granth Sahib as an idol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koi Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 The Sanskrit word "panth" means sect and sects are usually part of something bigger. And no panth, religion is completely niaara. That is impossible. Every group draws from existing sources and tweaks, adds or deletes. And how Niaara can you be if you have to continually go back to older scriptures to understand your current religion? Respectfully disagree. If you saw the sun first and declared that the sun exists (because you saw it), then I saw the sun and declared the same, does that mean i copied you? No, it doesn't. I say it because it is true. And the same logic can be applied here. When Guru Teg Bahadur Ji Maharaj burnt all but 3 mirchaa (I'm sure you know the story) he told Aurangzeb that the Khalsa Panth would be the "Teesar Panth". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion. N3O can answer your questions. He is a busy man so relax, he'll get to it. I want to shed some light on this. Umbrella is a term which is nothing by itself. It is simply a name for various things that comes under it. So in the case of the term 'Hinduism'. There is no such thing as Hinduism, it a term used to refer to religions of Indian origin, sometimes referred to as Dharma. Even religions that oppose each other such as Vaishnavism and Shaktyism come under this term of 'Hinduism'. Even though these are separate religions, they have principles that are opposite to each other. They still come under the umbrella term of 'Hinduism'. Why? For no reason, or you can say, for lack of understanding. Sanatan means puratan/ancient or original. Even Sant Kabir ji says, "Ab man ulat sanatan hua". My mind has turned [away from the world] and has become 'sanatan' as in, it has taken the form of God. Like Guru Nanak Dev ji says "Man tu jot saroop hain upna mool pachan". So Kabir says that "my mind has turned away from the world and has become the original mool swaroop" So Sanatan can mean mool, the original form of something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amandeep Hindustani Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Respectfully disagree. If you saw the sun first and declared that the sun exists (because you saw it), then I saw the sun and declared the same, does that mean i copied you? No, it doesn't. I say it because it is true. And the same logic can be applied here. When Guru Teg Bahadur Ji Maharaj burnt all but 3 mirchaa (I'm sure you know the story) he told Aurangzeb that the Khalsa Panth would be the "Teesar Panth". Sorry, I don't know the story but glad you brought it up. See, we can have a civil discussion without attacking each others faith. And I do respect your history, faith, dharam and heroes. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) N3O can answer your questions. He is a busy man so relax, he'll get to it. I want to shed some light on this. Umbrella is a term which is nothing by itself. It is simply a name for various things that comes under it. So in the case of the term 'Hinduism'. There is no such thing as Hinduism, it a term used to refer to religions of Indian origin, sometimes referred to as Dharma. Even religions that oppose each other such as Vaishnavism and Shaktyism come under this term of 'Hinduism'. Even though these are separate religions, they have principles that are opposite to each other. They still come under the umbrella term of 'Hinduism'. Why? For no reason, or you can say, for lack of understanding. Sanatan means puratan/ancient or original. Even Sant Kabir ji says, "Ab man ulat sanatan hua". My mind has turned [away from the world] and has become 'sanatan' as in, it has taken the form of God. Like Guru Nanak Dev ji says "Man tu jot saroop hain upna mool pachan". So Kabir says that "my mind has turned away from the world and has become the original mool swaroop" So Sanatan can mean mool, the original form of something. I see. I think I understand now. Thanks very much. Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 ASJ veer ji, i was going to reply shortly but bhagat singh ji replied exactly my clarification..i agree with him thats exactly what i meant.sorry for confusion or misunderstanding my post may have caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 Superb explanation veer ji ...We also need to understand that the Gurus took what was to be useful and discarded what was manmat...a major reason for the opposition to idol worship was that the person who worshiped the idol would get attached to the idol rather than Parmatma Akaal Purakh..would limit his bhagti to the saroop...thus declining himself from the Ultimate goal of being One with the Supreme Soul - Param Aatma. In those times , the Mughals who invaded also destroyed the Idols ..people with an attachment to the idol would find his faith shaken...so to rise above this mental tendency and again do Bhagti of the Parmesar Akaal..idols have been rejected.. In Gurbani time and again you will find respect to the Vedas ..in Dakkhani Oankaar Baani of Guru Nanak Dev ji ..Guru Maharaj says ..Oankaar Bed Nirmaye...The Oankaar created the Vedas... The concept of Sikhi is based on Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar....there are Physical attributes and None too..Ultimately surrendering to the Formless Akaal. N3O can answer your questions. He is a busy man so relax, he'll get to it. I want to shed some light on this. Umbrella is a term which is nothing by itself. It is simply a name for various things that comes under it. So in the case of the term 'Hinduism'. There is no such thing as Hinduism, it a term used to refer to religions of Indian origin, sometimes referred to as Dharma. Even religions that oppose each other such as Vaishnavism and Shaktyism come under this term of 'Hinduism'. Even though these are separate religions, they have principles that are opposite to each other. They still come under the umbrella term of 'Hinduism'. Why? For no reason, or you can say, for lack of understanding. Sanatan means puratan/ancient or original. Even Sant Kabir ji says, "Ab man ulat sanatan hua". My mind has turned [away from the world] and has become 'sanatan' as in, it has taken the form of God. Like Guru Nanak Dev ji says "Man tu jot saroop hain upna mool pachan". So Kabir says that "my mind has turned away from the world and has become the original mool swaroop" So Sanatan can mean mool, the original form of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) You seem to have done a 180 degree u-turn here. You were writing that the Guru Granth Sahib is worshipped like an idol yet now say that Gurbani rejects idol worship. So how should we treat the Guru Granth Sahib? Edited October 29, 2014 by tonyhp32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 Gurbani rejects idol worship ..Sikhs dont ..how you treat is your call...and someone like you full of hatred cannot be taken for a follower of Sikhi ..no ways ...your way of understanding and looking at things is of a laandi buchchi..so 180 or 360 ..you can go on measuring degrees... You seem to have done a 180 degree u-turn here. You were writing that the Guru Granth Sahib is worshipped like an idol yet now say that Gurbani rejects idol worship. So how should we treat the Guru Granth Sahib? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 ASJ veer ji, i was going to reply shortly but bhagat singh ji replied exactly my clarification..i agree with him thats exactly what i meant.sorry for confusion or misunderstanding my post may have caused. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASJ Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) Superb explanation veer ji ...We also need to understand that the Gurus took what was to be useful and discarded what was manmat...a major reason for the opposition to idol worship was that the person who worshiped the idol would get attached to the idol rather than Parmatma Akaal Purakh..would limit his bhagti to the saroop...thus declining himself from the Ultimate goal of being One with the Supreme Soul - Param Aatma. In those times , the Mughals who invaded also destroyed the Idols ..people with an attachment to the idol would find his faith shaken...so to rise above this mental tendency and again do Bhagti of the Parmesar Akaal..idols have been rejected.. In Gurbani time and again you will find respect to the Vedas ..in Dakkhani Oankaar Baani of Guru Nanak Dev ji ..Guru Maharaj says ..Oankaar Bed Nirmaye...The Oankaar created the Vedas... The concept of Sikhi is based on Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar....there are Physical attributes and None too..Ultimately surrendering to the Formless Akaal. Thanks for the explanation, jaikaara. As a sikh I try to follow Gurmat as much as I can. Yes, the Vedas and the Puraanas are mentioned as well as Ram, Krishan and Allah. But for Sikhs it is Waheguru or Ik Onkaar or Sat Naam Waheguru. Edited October 29, 2014 by ASJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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