24 Forms Of A Formless God?

truthseeker546 · April 4, 2015

As a student of theology, I have studied many religions. Many claim God to be one. However more detailed study would show that in fact there are many interpretations of what "one" means. Take Christianity for example, they claim that God is one, however then say he has 3 forms, The father, son and holy ghost. The trinity is somehow one and three. Other religions (Judaism, Hinduism) have similar concepts in at least some branches of their faith.

Sikhism (from what I know) also falls in this category. Guru Nanak ji in his Mool mantra lays out a very monotheistic view of God, Ik onkar ... and Akaal Murat. One creator/God/being and without form.

However when we take a deeper look at the Dasam Granth by the 10th Guru Gobin Singh Ji, the chavi avtar we learn that God came in no less then 24 forms on earth. Some include: a fish, 4 armed Hindu Gods, Animals etc. Also Chand di vaar has references to other deities, giving them forms, gender, and plurality.

How do Sikhs reconcile the absolute monotheism proposed by the first Guru and the polytheistic beliefs of the 10th, (since I'm lead to believe they were both divinely inspired).

BhagatSingh · April 4, 2015

Well I'll give you the short answer first - if you read past the mool mantar, Guru Nanak says that everything is a form of God. You, me, the oceans, the trees, the specs of sand on the beach to the specs of light in the cosmos. What does this mean?
This is an inner experience people have where they see the "oneness" of everything, they see God radiating through everything including themselves as this One Being, Purakh.

harsharan000 · April 4, 2015

How do Sikhs reconcile the absolute monotheism proposed by the first Guru and the polytheistic beliefs of the 10th, (since I'm lead to believe they were both divinely inspired).

Brother,

since creation has come into existence, there have been many Parlays and Mahaparlays. In whatever form that Supreme Power, namely Wahiguru Akal purukh may have come, as per laws of Nature, they had to come, do their spiritual work, and go like any mortal here.

And all of them, deserve our respects and homage. But yet, sikhee tells us, there is another form of Wahiguru which is timeless, changeless, birthless, deathless....in a few words, eternal, infinite, beyond our comprehension. And that form is Sat-Nam-Shabad.

And it is this form, which, if by His Grace, wills to manifest in some body, that is known to us as Gurmukh, Sant, Brahm Gyani ....

This is when the Bani says:

Nanak, Sadh, Prabh, bhed na paee, or Har ka sewak so Har jeha, bhed na jaano manus deha, or Har jee baseh Sadh ke hirdey.

These words are True, we can see, Bhagat Jan, our Guru Sahibans, are living examples before us. But inspite of this types of His manifestations, they are limited to an extent, though they are Omnipotent, because their real identity is not their body, which is a means to make us understand and know higher Truths( Wahiguru, Nam, Shabad), by singing His Glory.

Gurbani is nothing, but Mahima sung by these highest Souls,a s they are one in mind and spirit with Wahiguru.

Then the other point which the Bani tells us to take into consideration, is the Shabad Guru.

It is this reality, this power, to which if we attach ourselves, will be the cause of our being free from all our bondages in this creation, and at the same time, enable us to merge in Him.

That is why the Bani says: Nanak, Naam jahaz hae, jin chareeya seh outreh paar.

Or as Fifth Patshahee says:

Nanak Naam dhiaeeya, Aad Purakh Prabh paeeyaa.

And this Shabad Guru is within us, irrespective of class, caste, gender, dharam, mazab ... it is the same within us. And it is with this reality within us, that all the True Bhagats, Sant Janas, tell us to manifest it within us, with the jugtee of His Simrran, and become one with it.

That is why third Patshahee tells us in Raag Gauri Guaarayree :

Jug Chaarae(Sat yuga, Treta yuga, Dwapur yuga, Kal yuga) Naam Outham Sabadh Beechaar.

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.

And it is to this His Shabad swaroop, we have to find within us, so that our soul/sikh/chela, in the company of Shabad Guru, we may reach our destiny, His abode, in Sach Khand.

Tenth Patshahee out of utter humilty says:

Main hoon param purakh ko dasa dekhan aayo jagat tamasha. I am a devotee/servant of that Highest being, and I have come to watch His play of creation.

But again, Tenth Patshahee, is not the body, it is that Power, that Level of consciousness of Akal Purukh, which manifests itself, through the body, for our human nature and understanding, for our spiritual uplift.

Sat Sree Akal.

truthseeker546 · April 9, 2015

OK firstly thanks for the replies.

@ Bhagat Singh

Umm not sure how that answers my question. If you take looking at the creation of God as a sign of him, ie by looking at sand, sea, stars etc. that does not explain the 24 incarnations of God. Unless your asserting that God literally is one with his creation. This is not a new belief, its present in many ancient civilisations and religions, ie Druidism, pre-islamic Arabia, native Indian religions, old Turkic beliefs in God etc. These beliefs are generally referred to under pantheism.

However I was under the impression Sikhism is not pantheistic. As Guru Nanak said " everything is false except God" sorry don't know citation. Also Sikhs believe everything is being re-created, recycled. The cosmos in a constant state of being created and destroyed, this is not true for God. So how can God literally be one with his creation if he is eternal, unchanging?

If you were trying to say God can be understood through his creation, his presence can be felt in the created world, this view is present in monotheistic religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism also. But this can't be used to prove God can have forms.

@harsharan000

OK - you say God has come in many forms, " there have been many Parlays and Mahaparlays. In whatever form that Supreme Power, namely Wahiguru Akal purukh may have come," and " there is another form - Sat Naam" so he has many forms and only one form at the same time. humm? seems like the same thing as the trinity (3 and 1) argument to me.

So what your saying is God can have a form in Sikhism? So where does that leave the Mool Mantra?

Isn't the Mool Manta recited after every couplet in Jap Je to emphasis the core belief is Sikki?

Quoting other parts of the Adi Granth or Dassam Granth just shows there are contradictions in the texts.

Your other arguments are similar to some Hindu theologians, that say God is in fact one. Endless, timeless, shapless etc however he manifests himself in many forms (Kali, Braham, Vishnu etc), which is not his true form but manifestation of him.

Saying God is absolutely one - Iki Onkar , and Akaal Murat and then saying he has this forms, and manifestations just goes to prove there are fundamentally contradictory ethoses in Sikki?

The arguments to try and resolve these two opposing beliefs seems weak to me, or maybe I'm not fully understanding Sikki view on this?

Thanks again for your replies, much appreciated.

April 9, 2015

Before interpreting gurbani I believe one should have some grammar framework behind gurbani arths, historical(uthanka) framework, through understanding different aspects of divine(Ikoankar-Sargun and Nirgun), one should have good understanding different aspects of Ikoankar/Vahiguru- bhagti-bhav-bhagti aspect of Vahiguru, shabad surat aspect of Vahiguru, shakti aspect of Vahiguru nirgun-shabad gyan aspect of Vahiguru, absolute truth and relative truth contexts of gurbani, and finally one should be deeply connected with shabad(via meditation) in order to provide metaphysical/antriv arths -deep intuitive interpretation deep gnosis/metaphysical interpretation of Gurbani as ultimately Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is dhur ki bani- straight from divine-anubhav parkash- intuitive infinite spontaneous effortless ocean of divine knowledge.

Umm not sure how that answers my question. If you take looking at the creation of God as a sign of him, ie by looking at sand, sea, stars etc. that does not explain the 24 incarnations of God. Unless your asserting that God literally is one with his creation. This is not a new belief, its present in many ancient civilisations and religions, ie Druidism, pre-islamic Arabia, native Indian religions, old Turkic beliefs in God etc. These beliefs are generally referred to under pantheism. However I was under the impression Sikhism is not pantheistic. As Guru Nanak said " everything is false except God" sorry don't know citation. Also Sikhs believe everything is being re-created, recycled. The cosmos in a constant state of being created and destroyed, this is not true for God. So how can God literally be one with his creation if he is eternal, unchanging?

If you were trying to say God can be understood through his creation, his presence can be felt in the created world, this view is present in monotheistic religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism also. But this can't be used to prove God can have forms.

Sikhi supports absolute truth reality(non dual truth never changing/eternal) and relative realities/truth (aspects of God-sargun/shabad/shakti god aspects incarnation etc/devotion of avtar) which appear/disappear in the absolute spontaneously/effortlessly.

All of these may seem paradoxical because we are try study sikhi with conceptual mind. However, sikhi needs to be experienced, needs to be looked at from one spiritual development.

Ikoankar brings creator/creation together in its absolute full realization statement:

~Ik Oankar ~ One universal Eternal Absolute unchanged Awareness Being-Light-Knowledge- God- all in one, one in all- embodiment of stillness awareness, expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing creation spontaneously effortlessly.

As Guru Nanak said " everything is false except God" sorry don't know citation. Also Sikhs believe everything is being re-created, recycled. The cosmos in a constant state of being created and destroyed, this is not true for God. So how can God literally be one with his creation if he is eternal, unchanging?

It's relative statement, statement of transcendence does not explain Sikh philosophy in its totality. In order for us to reconcile Gurbani statements totally, it needs to be looked at from as part of one spiritual experience itself rather other abstract philosophy out there somewhere.

Sikhism initially points out - world is illusion, god is only real (this statement of transcendence for the seeker) then after seeker transcendence, seeker perceive what gurbani points out- world is har roop (world is god-sargun/nirgun is ONE-full unity), which means:

World is false-maya as separate relative reality perception but same world/ universe is true as form of God- Ik Hari roop as bhram pure-bhramgyan perception.

This is similar to what adi sankara said as well in advaita:

The world is illusion, bhraman alone is real, world is bhraman.

harsharan000 · April 9, 2015

Hi Truthseeker, let me try to answer as best as possible with your queries... o.k?

@harsharan000

OK - you say God has come in many forms, " there have been many Parlays and Mahaparlays. In whatever form that Supreme Power, namely Wahiguru Akal purukh may have come," and " there is another form - Sat Naam" so he has many forms and only one form at the same time. humm? seems like the same thing as the trinity (3 and 1) argument to me.

You see, the forms that Absolute Truth assumes when manifested in this part of creation are just temporary, not permanent,it comes for a particular purpose, to remind the astrayed souls of their true essence, and guide those souls, back Home.

Like you yourself, you have been a child, then a teenager, now you maybe an adult ......so you see, you have several changes in your physical body, but somehow in your inner being, you still know, who you are and what you have been since you were born...so, outer aspects may have gone drastic changes, but it is the inner consciousness which remains the same.

For example you fill several colored bukets with water, and put them under the sky, all of them will, have the reflection of the one Sun in them ...

Not because of different relections in each of them, there are many suns ....

One God is present in the beings, just as perfume in the flower...

Or as the same image in different mirrors ....

God is not something physical, He is a highest level of Conscious Energy, Truth , Bliss, Omnipotent and Omniscient ...wisdom, mercy, grace ......

In a few words, an Infinte Treasure of Virtues ..... And we as souls are same in essence like Him. The jeeva, the soul, is immortal just like as Him

The only difference is, we are limited with the three bodies, mind, karmas, maya and Kal ....while He is the Supreme Creator, and so naturally beyond all these petty limitations. Guru Sahibans, Bhagat Janas, say, all our miseries are due to our separati0on from that Primal Supreme Being, and unless we shed all our layers, and do not merge in Him, we shall remain trapped in this part of creation.

Right now, our this physical form is not our trueself....Since creation was brought into existence, we have taken countless forms.... And those transient, perishable forms are not "we souls" . In the same way, the forms assumed by Him, when He came at our level, are not Him, but a manifestation of that Level of Consciousness, of that power, of magnifency, of Truth, of Love and mercy above all.

And if that was not the case, how can we explain, the atrocites caused on them by the foolish so called mankind. Like for example Christ, was crucified, spat, verbally abused, put a crown of thorns on Him, slapped...etc.

Dhan Dhan Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, was tortured....and quite a big list of these highly spiritual beings can be made of how they were and are treated by us unhuman beings ....that too, when they just want to share the One Truth with us, as they only see the Light of Him in us.

They do not look at our outer coverings, but our very true spiritual nature as souls. While we label ourselves and make discriminations among us, due to our color, nationality, caste, dharam... and then as fanatics, we fight and kill each other for these absurd and insane reasons.

As the Bani says, the whole of the creation was made out from that Primal Energy, which is known as Shabad, Nam, Anhad Bani... The Christians call it as the Word or Holy Ghost, chinese call it Tao... So you see, different languages have different words to refer that Power, but not because of that, its essence changes.

So what your saying is, God can have a form in Sikhism?

Why Sikhism alone? Sikhism was born about 700 years now...and that too, ther have been a lot of changes introduced in the original teachings of our beloved Guru Sahibans or the Bhagat Janas.

Or do you think, before sikhism there was no Akal purukh? The Bani says: Jug chaare Naam outam, Shabad veechar, this means: Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.

Different Gurmukhs, Bhagat Janas have come throughout at different plaves and times, each one , in that time gave a different name to that Highest Power in that particular land, country or language....but all of them reffred to that one Truth, which if any of us by doing a particular jugtee of method, can realize it within us and see that it is the same universal Truth present in all, irrespective of their culture, color, caste, gender or nationality ...

After all what is Sikhism? What is being a sikh? Sikh means student, means disciple...so sikhism is not a theoretical philosophy, but a practical way to realize Him within us, with the aid of Shabad Guru. The Bani is full of such quotations, where we can clearly see, that the soul, the student, the disciple, the sikh, can never ever reach Him, without taking shelter in this Shabad Guru.

Worldwise we are clever and awake, we may have name and fame, but spiritual wise we are all blind, ans as such, only if He with sight, wants us to get hold of Him, can we get hold of Him, otherwise by our own tricks, power, knowledge, efforts ...can never ever reach Him, and this aspect is known as Daya, as Meher, as Grace, as Mercy....from Him.

It is absolutley not in our hands, only our utter humility, our sincere desire to meet Him, and His Grace above all, can make it possible, not otherwise.

So where does that leave the Mool Mantra?

The mool mantra, is nothing, but His countless virtues simplified in a few words, for us limited men and women to grasp that unprrarel Truth and beauty.

Isn't the Mool Manta recited after every couplet in Jap Je to emphasis the core belief is Sikki?

Yes, that is because it is reminder for us, not to forget nor for even a second the base of Sikhee, as we people are just too weak, dumb and shaky.

Quoting other parts of the Adi Granth or Dassam Granth just shows there are contradictions in the texts.

Your other arguments are similar to some Hindu theologians, that say God is in fact one. Endless, timeless, shapless etc however he manifests himself in many forms (Kali, Braham, Vishnu etc), which is not his true form but manifestation of him.

Please allow me to avoid answering you here, as I do not want to hurt the feelings of the believers of different religions and here in this case , the ones of our hindu brothers.... Though somehow, you may get a glimpse of what I am trying to say, in the rest of my answers to you, on the whole.

Saying God is absolutely one - Iki Onkar , and Akaal Murat and then saying he has this forms, and manifestations just goes to prove there are fundamentally contradictory ethoses in Sikki?

No no no, there is no contracdiction in the teachings of our Guru Sahibans, who are the embodiment of wisdom and Truth. Akal Moorat, is just a descrption of that Ik Onkar.

The arguments to try and resolve these two opposing beliefs seems weak to me, or maybe I'm not fully understanding Sikki view on this?

Yes, humbly speaking, we are all weak, we do not exactly know the true value of the teachinghs of our Guru Sahibans, known as sikhee....

Thanks again for your replies, much appreciated.

No thanks please, we are all here to give a sincere helping hand. You are most welcome any time.

God bles you

Kuttabanda2 · April 9, 2015

Chandi, Vishnu, Brahma, Rudra/Shiva etc. Are not Gods, the 10th Patshah didn't worship them, as they (Gurus) make it clear in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Itself.

ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥ -ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ

"In every age (Jugh/Yuga), He creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations.

Even they have not found His limits; what can One speak of and contemplate? ||7||"

Note: the Word 'Avtari', The Guru is talking specifically of the Avtars (Hindu Pantheon).

ਅਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਨੰ

ਅਨਕ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਵੈਸ਼ਨੰ॥

ਅਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰਨੰ

ਅਨਕ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਹਰਨਾਕਸ਼ ਮਾਰਨੰ॥-ਜੋਤਿ ਬਿਗਾਸ (ਮੂਲ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ) ਭਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ

"There are Countless Brahmas, Vishnus, Maheshes, and countless Devis, Durgas, and Vaishnu Devis.

There are numerous Rams and Krishna's Avtars.

Countless Narsinghas slaying Harnakashs."

There is no conflict between Polytheism and Monotheism in Sikhi, when there isn't Polytheism to begin with.

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ -ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ

"Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||

He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation."

The Guru has made it clear from the above Tukk that God does not reincarnate/ go through the cycle of birth and death. So how could these Avtars be his direct Incarnations?

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥

ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕਨ੍ਹਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ -ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ

"O, Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas."

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਿਬਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇੳੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭੁਲੇ ਹੳੁਮੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਿੲਅਾ ॥-ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ

"Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva wander in the three qualities, while their egotism and desire increase."

These "Dieties" are no different than us, they aren't Unique.

I've heard 3 points regarding the Hindu Pantheon:

1) The Avtars are like another people (like humans), who exist but are practically nothing special, I was told this from my Taksali Ustad and Akhand Kirtani Jatha.

2) They are/were just People in history who became Infamous or famous due to their actions and the Stories related to them.

3) they are just people.

Over all, they aren't supposed to be Worshipped nor are they God(s).

ਦੋਹਰਾ॥

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਉ ਛਾਡ ਕਰਿ ਭਜੈ ਦੇਵ ਕੋਈ ਅਉਰ

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਤਾ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਲਹਹਿ ਨ ਸੁਖ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ॥੧੬॥

ਪਾਹਨ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ਸਿਖ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਵਹਿ ਸੀਸ ਸੋ ਸਾਕਤ ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਜਗਦੀਸ॥੧੭॥ -ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ ਭਾਈ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ

"They who leave Akaal Purkh, and start to worship Hindu deities,

They will wander through birth after birth, and will never find true peace.

They who do idol worship and do not treat another Sikh with respect.

That person is forever without a Guru, and is destroyed by the Lord of the world."

ਸਵੈਯਾ॥ ਪਾਿੲ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋੳੂ ਅਾਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਅਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂਂ ਮਤ ੲੇਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਬੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ੲੇਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਪਾਨ ਿਕ੍ਰਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਿਹ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥

-ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ, ਸ੍ੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਹਿਬ ਜੀ

"Svaiyya ||

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not acknowledge them.

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them.

O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to write all this? || 863 ||

The Guru made his point about these 24 Avtars quite clear in the Chaubees Avtar Bani itself. Chaubees Avtar was written so that the Sikhs did not have to rely Brahmins/Pandits. This Bani was written to envoke the feeling of Dharam Yudh to the Khalsa and give Moral lessons, just like in Sri Charitaropakhyan Sahib.

ਚੌਪੲੀ ॥ ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸਿਹ ਿਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਮਨਾੳੂਂਂ ॥ ਿਕਸਨ ਿਬਸਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਿਹ ਿਧਅਾੳੂਂਂ ॥ ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਿਤਨ ਸੋ ॥ ਿਲਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਿੲਨ ਸੋ ॥੨॥ - ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ, ਸ੍ੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਹਿਬ ਜੀ

Chaupai ||

"I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman I.e. God).434."

Chandi Di Var, Sri Sarbloh Granth/Mangalacharan Puran, Chaubees Avtar, Brahma Avtar, Ram Avtar, Var Sri Bhagat Bhagouti, Hanuman Natak, and Chandi Charitars were written for Bir Raas, giving Moral lessons, and teaching the Khalsa Panth. Sri Dasam Patshah Ki Granth was written to properly shape the Charitar (character) and mind of a Sikh of the Sri Guru Khalsa Panth Sahib Jee.

truthseeker546 · April 9, 2015

wow ! wasn't expecting so many responses. Thanks guys. Still not happy with the answers, however too tied to go through all your answers and then reply. will do so tomorrow. This is quite interesting for me.

As a quick note (for now), it's interesting how Hindu deities are being reinterpreted as famous people in the past that were turned into deities. The Dassam garnth doesn't claim this, in chaubees avtaar or chand di var. Seemingly Hindu accounts of ancient deities are given instead where words like Lord, Devi etc are used to describe them.

again when you then say:

"They who leave Akaal Purkh, and start to worship Hindu deities,
They will wander through birth after birth, and will never find true peace.
They who do idol worship and do not treat another Sikh with respect.
That person is forever without a Guru, and is destroyed by the Lord of the world."

This further gives evidences of contradiction. (for me at least) I found similar arguments from Christians defending the bible.

Thanks for now, I'll give a more detailed reply tomorrow.

truthseeker546 · April 10, 2015

@ N30 S!NGH

You main argument " All of these may seem paradoxical because we are try study sikhi with conceptual mind. However, sikhi needs to be experienced, needs to be looked at from one spiritual development." Is the same as most religions when they get stuck when answering a difficult question. Christians say the same thing when they can't explain the trinity. 'God is beyond the mental, he is love, we don't understand how he is 3 and 1 but just believe.' I'm seriously not impressed with these types of arguments.

And your justifications for God being transcendent and paradoxically having physical forms by looking at God through different realities is a bit weak. If it is in the essence of God to be one, and formless, then he can't have incarnations. Your arguments are again the same as some Hindu beliefs.

And why is it God only came to manifest himself in 24 forms that are all from Hindu theology? Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Ahraham, Zoroaster etc are mentioned. If he was to show manifestations of himself to humanity, then these 24 incarnations from a global pool. I know sikhs believe there is truth in all religions, but I'm asking why does the Dasam granth only focus on Hindu deities?

@harsharan000

"

You see, the forms that Absolute Truth assumes when manifested in this part of creation are just temporary, not permanent,it comes for a particular purpose, to remind the astrayed souls of their true essence, and guide those souls, back Home."

Umm this causes more problems then answers questions. So an internal, everlasting God can have temporary forms? apart from other philosophical problems of God in that statement, (which I won't go into ) you have admitted God can have "human" forms. So Sikhism is similar to Christianity in its view of God. However rather then stopping at 3, we have 24. And we have more exotic forms of God, Manu the fish, 4/6/8 armed blue alien looking deities, both male and female forms, animals forms etc,

I thought the trinity was difficult to understand, Sikhism is even more complicated.

Sorry I don't have time to go through all your answers but non of them make sense. non of the things you said are a) from the granth or dassam granth that show there is no contradictions, if fact anyone that quotes dassam/adi granth ends up showing more contradictions.

Your jumping from one idea to the next, my question was simple, in Sikhism - because that's the religion I'm trying to understand, can God have a form - to which the answers is now I see is obviously yes. So there is a fundamental contradiction in what Sikhs believe to be the attributes of God.

" no, there is no contracdiction in the teachings of our Guru Sahibans, who are the embodiment of wisdom and Truth. Akal Moorat, is just a descrption of that Ik Onkar." I think we have established there IS a contradiction.

Thanks for your replies, I'm getting a better idea of God in Sikhism.

@Kuttabanda2

"The Guru has made it clear from the above Tukk that God does not reincarnate/ go through the cycle of birth and death. So how could these Avtars be his direct Incarnations? "

yeah that's my point, on one hand you have the above verse, and on the other, you have chaubees avtar, chand di vaar. It seems to me that these texts were written by different people who had different ideas about who or what God is, hence the contradictions.

As for your point of the avtaar being famous people, this is a weak attempt to try and reconcile the problem. If they were infamous/famous people then why are they mentioned in the chapter of 24 incarnations (of God), there were many famous people throughout history. why are these Hindu Gods mentioned?

"Chaubees Avtar was written so that the Sikhs did not have to rely Brahmins/Pandits. " umm so you have most of the dassam granth devoted to these deities. ?

that makes a lot of sense. ?

All these Avtars were written by the 10th Guru and the absolute oneness of God was written by the first Guru - either they had very different ideas on God or these books were tampered or changed.

One person gives me an answer these were only famous people not deities, another says no, they are temporary states of God on earth. That's just to point out one contradiction. Is this because some of the people here belong to Tat Kalsa (akali, Nihung) and the others to Sanatan Sikh sabah (nirmalas, namdhari) ???

Thanks for your replies, I hope I don't offend anyone by asking these questions.

harsharan000 · April 10, 2015

Well brother,

truly speaking, faith is not got by any explanations. To understand Him, is the work of mind...and we all know, mind though powerful, is limited.

To know and realize Him, one has to go beyond the realms of the mind, with the aid of guided meditation.

Otherwise, the Bani says: Sochay soch na hovaee .... Think you may hundreds of thousands of times, even then, it isan impossible task.

The Bani oftenly repeats: only he can understand Him, unto He so wants, by His glance of Grace and mercy.

So sometimes if you feel disheartned by getting confused, maybe He has something else in His mind for you...just submit yourself to His will.

The world religion comes from the latin term religare, means, the path which unites one with the Origin. This is esence, the true meaning of religion.

You may study, different religions, paths, philosophies, but if you belive in God, just see if you it does tell you how to unite yourself with Him in this very life .... not after death.

Secondly and lastly, only that much I will definetely tell you, that He, whenever comes in this part of creation, no matter how many times He comes in different forms like Guru Sahibans or Gurmukhs, not any other, all of them come to ann end when they leave this creation.

Why am I saying so?

Because I have an intuition, that you may be thinking that all those 24, 3, or any number of forms, continue existing somewhere....

And if anybody tells you, that those continue existing, along with His primal form, then belive it, those forms are surely of lesser deities....which are definetely not Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

The more we dig here and there, the more one gets confused. Mool mantra, is the summary of any True religion.

He is one, He can assume any number of forms, if He so wishes, but all of them are limited, and cease to exist, when He again wishes to return in His original form of Naam, Shabad, Word or Holy Ghost .....

He works, or manifests in His Gurmukhs, Sant Janas. That is why, the Bani says: Har jee baseh Sadh ke hirdey.

God, Wahiguru, is spirit, a level of consciousness...not the coverings, the bodies.

When He comes here, He respects the laws of nature made by Him and works under them, though He is all powerful. He does not manipulate anything to His convenience. He is utterly humble, and looks like any other mortal.

It is the avtars of deities, who display powers, have weapons, look similar more like Marvel superheros, with those supernatural powers...have children, spouses, etc ..even in those subtler realms .... but those forms are not Wahiguru.

Wahiguru is Iko.

And it is to this form, which all masters of spirituality, Gurmukhs, Sant Janas, tell us to reveal it within us, in order to get the most of it, and in the end merge in it and fulfill our purpose of human birth.

The Ocean when, reaches the shore, takes the forms of waves, for a certain period of time; and then when it wants to return back, it just goes back, giving up its limited form ... to just resume its original form: the Ocean.

Once those waves, merge and become one with the Ocean...who can differentiate and trace them, there in the Ocean ?

Naturally nobody.

May you succeed in your studies in these fields, and reach your goal !!!

Sat Sree Akal,

God bless you.

Edited April 10, 2015 by harsharan000

April 11, 2015

You main argument " All of these may seem paradoxical because we are try study sikhi with conceptual mind. However, sikhi needs to be experienced, needs to be looked at from one spiritual development." Is the same as most religions when they get stuck when answering a difficult question. Christians say the same thing when they can't explain the trinity. 'God is beyond the mental, he is love, we don't understand how he is 3 and 1 but just believe.' I'm seriously not impressed with these types of arguments.

And your justifications for God being transcendent and paradoxically having physical forms by looking at God through different realities is a bit weak. If it is in the essence of God to be one, and formless, then he can't have incarnations. Your arguments are again the same as some Hindu beliefs.

And why is it God only came to manifest himself in 24 forms that are all from Hindu theology? Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Ahraham, Zoroaster etc are mentioned. If he was to show manifestations of himself to humanity, then these 24 incarnations from a global pool. I know sikhs believe there is truth in all religions, but I'm asking why does the Dasam granth only focus on Hindu deities?

Not really, its our own lack of understanding. If from ocean various waves arises spontaneously effortlessly, why cannot from God (creator of whole creation) various forms arises and subsides effortlessly spontaneously just like waves are arisen from ocean and subsides in ocean quite effortlessly spontaneously

All is god, god is all. God is expressing itself through creation while being unborn. It just like awareness, while awareness is same-substratum is same there are many forms arises and subsides in the same awareness, its god expression of truth.

Our first statement talks about absolute reality leaving no duality understanding. Ikonakar is great statement of full realization of absolute truth

~Ik Oankar ~ One universal Eternal Absolute unchanged Awareness Being-Light-Knowledge- God- all in one, one in all- embodiment of stillness awareness, expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing creation spontaneously effortlessly.

Which is

Satnam- Eternal Truth Pure Existence

Kartapurkh- Creative consciousness

Nirbhauo- No fear- fearless as there is only one in all, all in one- fear from what? There is NO other. Ikoankar is all, all is ikoankar

Nirvair- No enemy of anyone- since its only one in all, all in one, there is no enemy.

Akaal Moorat- Timeless Being which is one being in all, all in one- One-JOT-Light-pure knowledge form.

Ajooni- Unborn non dual pure awareness being all in one, one in all.

Gurparsad- Pure consciousness/awareness bliss is realized by grace of true Guru-Satguru-sargun-manifested Guru in form of sri guru granth sahib/ invisible alive SatGuru within all- bestowed grace.

April 11, 2015

If you look at the essence teaching behind 24 immanence of God, Sikhi talks about history/biography but at the end refuse to believe in 24 immanence of God as absolute reality as our beloved Guru declares- Aad Ant Eko Avatar Soi Samio Guru Humara - Primal Formless Guru without end is only my Guru ||

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

@ harsharan000 and N30 S!NGH

OK - all the answers that say " we can't understand God logically" are easy get out clauses, all religions have them. I'll take them as you can' answer the question, which is fair enough. I'll move on to other questions.

"Not really, its our own lack of understanding. If from ocean various waves arises spontaneously effortlessly, why cannot from God (creator of whole creation) various forms arises and subsides effortlessly spontaneously just like waves are arisen from ocean and subsides in ocean quite effortlessly spontaneously"

This is a Hindu argument, when they try to justify God being one but having 3 forms (Brahma, Vishnu and Vishnu) 3 forms but of One God. Also in Christianity where Jesus, the father and the holy spirit/ghost are one God but 3 forms. They use arguments like well if water can have 3 forms; vapour, ice and water and still be the same, then why can't God. Hindu's also then take it further and say the One God can have as many forms as he wants (not restricted to any number) so they have over 360 million forms/deities in India. In fact most polytheistic religions have the same belief and logic. One God, many forms.

The problem is when you explicitly define God as ONE, FORMLESS, transcendent . and then contradict yourself by saying he can have multiple forms, then that problematic. well, for me at least.

Also I've recently learn't that the Guru's in Sikhism are seen as God as well. ( not sure if by all Sikhs but defiantly by some) Not producing children via sexual intercourse but miraculously similar to the birth of Jesus. Which leaves Sikhism with more problems then Christianity. as Christians only have one human formed God, Sikhs have 10. (or more depending on your sect)

Let me give you a theological argument : if we define a triangle as: a shape having 3 sides. Then that's what makes a triangle is by definition. That's it's essence. you can't say then, well sometimes a triangle can have 4 sides, it's a triangle still because the 3 sides are there, but sometimes it can have one extra, it doesn't change the triangle - but it has 4 sides. This is a illogical argument. A four sided shape will always be known as a square.

When you define God as; ONE, IK ONKAR SAT NAAM, KARTA PURAK NIRBOU, NIRVAIR, AKAAL MURAT, ANJOONI SAIBANG GURPRASAD. being the essence of what God or WahiGuru is. That's how you define him. That's his essence.

Then we you go into Guru's being God, or 24 incarnations of God, or Chand Di var etc etc your are 'Squaring the triangle' so to speak. It defies logic or common sense for me at least.

I had thought Sikhs belief in one God as similar to Jewish or Islamic belief in an absolute oneness, however it's clear it's more like the Hindu/Christian belief of Oneness.

Thanks for your replies.

harsharan000 · April 11, 2015

Dear Truthseker,

I am sorry to say, you are moving very fast....so you miss the explanations given to you, and thus are not to your satisfaction.

And if is this is so, no matter howsoever explanations are given, you will never grasp the message in them ...

Not that we do not have the answers, or the capability, or we are avoiding you, it is just you need more time and need to go slowly .

And none of us are experts, we just give you what we have seen and done since our very birth, we may differ here or there, but in the end we all agree, that Wahiguru is one ...

Do not get distracted with the different forms when He comes here, as those said above are not permanent, they come for a definete purpose, for a particular time, and one more thing: all the hindu gods or christian trinity, or any other multiplicity,has nothing to do with sikhee, nor with Wahiguru, they are all lesser conscious entities, which have a different role to play in the creation...

But brother, Wahiguru Akal Purukh is above any such paraphernalia, and it is to Him, whom we as souls, give all our love and devotion...He is the creator, all the rest is His creation.

All the brothers above: Bhagat Singh, N30singh, kuttabanda2, have given you quite a reasonable and preety fair answers.

But as said, you want all in black/white or color answers .... true spirituality is not like that.

We need a broader mind to grasp and digest, then only, you can understand it, fully or in a better way.

So if you want to savour the deliciousness of sikhee, cool down, read the Bani with full attention...then if you have any questions or need some clarifications, ask us, we will gladly aid you. Nobody can discover the answers you want, in the way you want.

Forget for a moment, what hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs or jewish can tell you ...

And if you believe in God, He must be reachable somewhere. So try to find your own comfort level, and reach Him by treading that path leading to Him, and ask hIm all your whys... Surely, He can answer you.

Wahiguru, Ikonkar.

Sat Sree Akal.

God bless you.

Koi · April 11, 2015

I wonder if the concepts of Nirgun/Sargun will help answer your question?

On a side note, really loving the intellectual conversation here.

April 11, 2015

"Not really, its our own lack of understanding. If from ocean various waves arises spontaneously effortlessly, why cannot from God (creator of whole creation) various forms arises and subsides effortlessly spontaneously just like waves are arisen from ocean and subsides in ocean quite effortlessly spontaneously"

This is a Hindu argument, when they try to justify God being one but having 3 forms (Brahma, Vishnu and Vishnu) 3 forms but of One God. Also in Christianity where Jesus, the father and the holy spirit/ghost are one God but 3 forms. They use arguments like well if water can have 3 forms; vapour, ice and water and still be the same, then why can't God. Hindu's also then take it further and say the One God can have as many forms as he wants (not restricted to any number) so they have over 360 million forms/deities in India. In fact most polytheistic religions have the same belief and logic. One God, many forms.

The problem is when you explicitly define God as ONE, FORMLESS, transcendent . and then contradict yourself by saying he can have multiple forms, then that problematic. well, for me at least.

Also I've recently learn't that the Guru's in Sikhism are seen as God as well. ( not sure if by all Sikhs but defiantly by some) Not producing children via sexual intercourse but miraculously similar to the birth of Jesus. Which leaves Sikhism with more problems then Christianity. as Christians only have one human formed God, Sikhs have 10. (or more depending on your sect)

Let me give you a theological argument : if we define a triangle as: a shape having 3 sides. Then that's what makes a triangle is by definition. That's it's essence. you can't say then, well sometimes a triangle can have 4 sides, it's a triangle still because the 3 sides are there, but sometimes it can have one extra, it doesn't change the triangle - but it has 4 sides. This is a illogical argument. A four sided shape will always be known as a square.

When you define God as; ONE, IK ONKAR SAT NAAM, KARTA PURAK NIRBOU, NIRVAIR, AKAAL MURAT, ANJOONI SAIBANG GURPRASAD. being the essence of what God or WahiGuru is. That's how you define him. That's his essence.

Then we you go into Guru's being God, or 24 incarnations of God, or Chand Di var etc etc your are 'Squaring the triangle' so to speak. It defies logic or common sense for me at least.

I had thought Sikhs belief in one God as similar to Jewish or Islamic belief in an absolute oneness, however it's clear it's more like the Hindu/Christian belief of Oneness.

Thanks for your replies.

1. Gurbani fragments absolute reality further into relative realities-sargun/ sargun avtars etc to help seeker understand divine or transcendent in stages. Bhrahma,Vishnu, shiv are part of relative realities, they don't really exist in absolute reality-truth - Mool mantra points out absolute truth which is God is only one expressing itself via creation, destruction, preservation. It's shift of perception of seeker or shift of consciousness for seeker its not theological matter, its experiential. Looking at this from theological point of view, its fundamental profound mistake as thats not how it meant to be looked at.

Absolute reality/relative realities is not philosophical theological statement, its actually part of one awakening experience something seeker can relate to in stages, its something is known as seeker goes through in stages of awakening process.

Once seeker realizes absolute truth as mentioned in mool mantar, all these relative realities cease to exist that there is no objective/fragmented world out there separate from us.

2. The problem is when you explicitly define God as ONE, FORMLESS, transcendent . and then contradict yourself by saying he can have multiple forms, then that problematic. well, for me at least.

Also I've recently learn't that the Guru's in Sikhism are seen as God as well. ( not sure if by all Sikhs but defiantly by some) Not producing children via sexual intercourse but miraculously similar to the birth of Jesus. Which leaves Sikhism with more problems then Christianity. as Christians only have one human formed God, Sikhs have 10. (or more depending on your sect)

Let me give you a theological argument : if we define a triangle as: a shape having 3 sides. Then that's what makes a triangle is by definition. That's it's essence. you can't say then, well sometimes a triangle can have 4 sides, it's a triangle still because the 3 sides are there, but sometimes it can have one extra, it doesn't change the triangle - but it has 4 sides. This is a illogical argument. A four sided shape will always be known as a square.

He immanent its attributes into creation(sargun) while remaining unchanged/unborn/un-attached/un-confined/limitless/eternal thats the beauty of it, for me it does not sound contradiction it shows pure expression/intimacy of god -creator with his creation, pure non dual truth while maintaining its independence-...what is contradictory an duality beleif that God is not fully involved in its own creation stuck somewhere up there have no involvement in its creation. That to me purely contradictory but also undermining him.

When you define God as; ONE, IK ONKAR SAT NAAM, KARTA PURAK NIRBOU, NIRVAIR, AKAAL MURAT, ANJOONI SAIBANG GURPRASAD. being the essence of what God or WahiGuru is. That's how you define him. That's his essence.

Then we you go into Guru's being God, or 24 incarnations of God, or Chand Di var etc etc your are 'Squaring the triangle' so to speak. It defies logic or common sense for me at least.

As i said earlier, Absolute reality have to fragmented into relative reality not for theological argument but for seeker transcendence. It's like pointer/landmark analogy.

To consider chaubis avtars being as absolute reality, thats fundamental theological mistake to begin with it as mool mantar says otherwise. In order to reconcile both sikh philsophy absolute reality and relative realities context are given, if one does not uses those context then off course they will ran into contradictions. And mind you in real life, you will run into many problems if you totally ignore the context. Everything has a context.

Read the article below:

http://searchsikhism.com/contradicting-allah

Contradicting Allah

Bijla Singh

In Sikhi, description of Waheguru (God) is so unique that for many it goes beyond understanding. Many times what may appear as an apparent contradiction is only due to lack of knowledge and correct understanding of Gurmat teachings. Sikhi holds Waheguru as the absolute power, pure truth, the only creator, without fear, without hatred, beyond time and limitless. He is everywhere and nothing is without Him. He is within His creation and beyond. To Muslims this simple yet so elegant concept is hard to grasp since Allah in Quran has love only for selected individuals and hates disbelievers. According to them it seems impossible that Waheguru can be Nirgun and Sargun at the same time. We shall explain this concept in details so that Muslims can see the truth and correctly understand who Waheguru really is. We shall also see in this section if the so-called Universal Law of Non-Contradiction holds true in Islam.

Lets begin with Nirgun and Sargun first. We (Sikhs) openly accept this concept to be true since every word of Gurbani is directly revealed from Waheguru. Therefore, Waheguru is Nirgun and Sargun.

There are many more quotes but the fact is that wherever Waheguru is mentioned as Nirgun word Sargun also appears. Both words appearing right after each other in the same line does not mean contradiction but a characteristic of Waheguru. Had the two words been separate one could raise doubts. Any rational person can see that since Guru Sahib mentioned both words together there must be hidden meanings to it. The problem with Muslims is that they do not understand why Waheguru is referred to as Sargun.

saragun niragun nira(n)kaar su(n)n samaadhhee aap ||

He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi. (Ang 290)

niragun aap saragun bhee ouhee ||

He Himself is absolute and unrelated; He Himself is also involved and related. (Ang 287)

raaj joban prabh thoo(n) dhhanee || thoo(n) niragun thoo(n) saragunee ||2||

O God, You are my power, authority and youth. You are absolute, without attributes, and also related, with the most sublime attributes. ||2|| (Ang 211)

nira(n)kaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||

He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. (Ang 250)

To explain the concept in simple terms, we go to the beginning of time. First Waheguru was only Nirgun as there existed nothing but Him. Then He created the entire creation i.e. solar systems, galaxies, planets, life forms, humans etc. In other words, anything to everything originated from Waheguru.

Guru Sahib taught that everyone came from the same source of light and it is the same light that pervades in the entire creation. While Waheguru has no particular form of His own, all forms originated from Him and therefore all forms belong to Him. Since Waheguru is omnipresent and all pervading nothing in the creation is without Him. Therefore, he is Sargun i.e. everything including all life forms and attributes belong to Him.

From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1|| (Ang 1349)

Thus, it is clear now that the word Sargun refers to creation of Waheguru. When in Gurbaani it says He Himself is formless and also formed, creating Himself or fashioning Himself it refers to creation because He is the creator and resides within the creation. It means that God Himself manifested Himself from His Nirgun (invisible) form, which forever existed, to his Sargun (visible) form.

He is the life of the soul in each and every soul; He permeates and pervades each and every heart. (Ang 1273)

Guru Sahib saw Waheguru residing in every heart and in every form of creation. This is why He rejected empty rituals like hajj and facing a certain direction during prayers. God is not limited to one direction nor does He reside at one particular place. He is everywhere and everything belongs to Him. Now, it is clear that the word Sargun refers to the creation in which we can see and realize Waheguru and His wondrous miracles.

People, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause|| (Ang 1349)

This whole world which you see is the image of the Lord; only the image of the Lord is seen.By Guru's Grace, I understand, and I see only the One Lord; there is no one except the Lord. (Ang 922)

Words Nirankar and Ik Oankar are not contradictory at all. Here is why:

Nir (without) Akaar (form) Waheguru is without any form.

Ik (One) Oan (Brahm or God) Kar (without changes) One God who has stayed the same, is the same and will always be the same. In other words, He doesnt change over time. His powers, characteristics and existence are beyond time and forever and ever.

Both words convey the same meanings. First word says that Waheguru is formless and has no particular form of His own. Second word means that He is One and has existed forever and does not change over time. He is One universal creator. Therefore, the contradiction does not exist. Muslims are simply confused or trying to find flaws in flawless path, Sikhi, which is an impossible feat.

Contradictory Allah

In this section we evaluate the same claim of Muslims on Quran and Islamic teachings. We list some of the following contradictions briefly without going into too many details.

According to Quran wine is haram i.e. forbidden. If this is the universal law of Allah then why is this haram served in heaven? Why do rivers of haram flow in heaven? If it is haram on earth then why is it permitted in heaven where one cannot go without giving up wine in the first place? Why does Allah require Muslims to believe in this ridiculous belief blindly?
Islam rejects the belief of reincarnation because events, memories and deeds cannot be passed on from one life to another. If this is true then how is it possible for a sin of Adam and Eve to be passed onto the entire humanity? It is ludicrous to propose that one persons bad and good deeds cannot affect him in next life while one persons bad deed is affecting the entire humanity and is the cause of suffering for the humans. How does universal law of non-contradiction apply here?
According to verses 10:3 and 11:7 God created the creation in six days but according to 41:9, 41:10 and 41:12 the creation was created in eight days accumulatively. This is a clear contradiction. Little did Mohammad know that a day is a measurement of time. Day means the time this Earth takes to revolve around its axis. So when there was no Earth, how is possible for the creation to come into existence in 6 or 8 days? The concept of time came with the creation. Before creation, there can be no concept of time. Muslims sure have twisted the interpretations and have come up with obscure explanation to clear this misconception. However, since clearing up the contradiction requires human intervention it is reasonable to say that Quran is not explained in clear terms which directly contradicts with verse 11:1 according to which A Book, its verses have been perfected and explained by One (who is) all-Wise, Well-Informed. If the book is perfect and explained then it need not human intervention and man-made theories to make sense of what Allah is saying.
According to verses 22:47 and 32:5 a day of Allah is equal to 1000 earth years but according to verse 70:4 it is equal to 50,000 earth years. Whereas Allah in Quran is not beyond time, God in Sikhi is called Akal which means beyond time and physical world. Time applies to physical world only.
If we assume Allah created the creation in six days then whose day is it? Allahs or mans? According to Allahs six days it adds up to 36000 earth years (1 day = 6000 years) or 300,000 earth years (1 day = 50,000 years). In either case, it is scientifically false. Since the message is not clear at all it contradicts with 11:1 verse which states that the book is perfect and explained.
In verses 39:73, 41:30 and 57:21 it is clearly stated that there is only one garden in paradise but verses 18:31, 22:23 and 78:32 mention many gardens in paradise. Clearly, Mohammad could not make up his mind and delivered a contradictory message.
On Judgment Day people will be divided into three classes according to verse 56:7. In 90:18-19 and 99:6-8 people will be divided into two groups. When will Judgment Day happen? What day and time? Keep in mind the time difference before addressing this point. If Muslims have no clear cut answers then obviously Qurans message in really ambiguous.
According to verse 32:11 angel of death takes the soul. According to 47:27 angels take the soul while in verse 39:42 it is suggested that Allah himself takes the soul. Which is it? If any one of these is correct then what about judgment day? Lets assume Allah takes away the souls then who waits in the grave? Once soul is taken where does it go? It cannot go to hell or heaven since that will be determined on judgment day and clearly it cannot have another life form since reincarnation is not an accepted belief in Islam then what is the resting place of the soul?
Quran permits Muslim men to have up to four wives because it is the law of Allah then why is Mohammad made an exception who had 12 wives and many sex slaves and concubines? Why was he allowed to have unlimited number of wives and slaves? Does law of Allah not apply to Mohammad? If the prophet himself wont follow the divine message then how can one expect humans to follow it?
Men have the right to beat their wives according to verse 4:34. Why is the same right not given to women? This cannot be a universal law.
Why are women not given 72 virgin men in paradise? This is injustice of Allah.
Why doesnt a woman have the right to say talaq three times? This is not a universal law.
On one hand Allah is considered all loving and the creator and on the other hand is ordering Muslims to be ruthless and merciless to non-believers in verses 48:29, 2:193 and 9:73. Clearly Allah is full of hatred and does not have an iota of compassion or love for his own creation.
Allah is so full of hatred that he talks about instilling terror into the hearts of the unbelievers in verse 8:12. Therefore, Allah cannot be all loving and hateful at the same time. Some Muslims claim that this particular verse is applicable only when Muslims are fighting a defensive war. If this is true then two conclusions are drawn. First, Qurans message is not applicable to all times, all situations and all places. Hence, Quran is only for some people on earth because many communities such as Buddhists do not believe in war and therefore the message of Quran cannot be applied to them. Second, if fighting defensive war is the case then what about Muslim invaders who attacked India numerous times and enslaved thousands of Hindu women? Their war was offensive. Did Allah instill terror into their hearts? If no because they were believer then clearly Allah doesnt have a universal law. Instilling terrors only into the hearts of non-Muslims does not advocate universal law of non-contradiction.

There are many more contradicting laws of Allah stated in Quran such as inheritance laws, inequality laws, numerical and scientific contradictions. The list is endless. Once the above questions are answered we shall list more. Until then we shall await for Muslims to gather their thoughts and explain their flawed book. We appeal to Muslims to give up their belief in false, hateful, limited and contradicting Allah and start following all loving, omnipresent, and omnipotent Waheguru who is within His creation and beyond.

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

@ Harsharan000

Thank you for your reply brother.

Maybe you’re right, maybe I didn’t quite understand what some of the people were trying to tell me. I’ve been studying religion for a while now and I see the same arguments, maybe worded differently but the same deep down.

I also understand this is a forum, and not everyone is a scholar here, although people are very knowledgably about their faith. I did mention this in my last post. Yes I’ve had answer from people, but they don’t really answer my questions, at least I don’t feel they do. Thanks for all of you who at least tried to.

I think some of my points were not being fully understood either or answered. (I can understand not everything I ask will be answered. – that’s fine)

For example I didn’t say Sikki is the same as Hinduism or Christianity, rather Sikhism uses the same rational to try and prove God being one and many at the same time. For example, you said Wahiguru is one. Similar to Hindus and Christians who would say God is one – but then we get into how the one can become more or take forms (temporarily or otherwise.)

So when you say when God comes here for a definite purpose and for a limited time, (I’ll add relative reality to that) for me this is problematic to fathom. Because: – If God is said to be absolute in the Adi-Granth beyond time and space, beyond form, beyond gender, beyond life and death etc and then we say well he can temporarily exist in a relative reality and be in space and time, be born and die (at least be perceived to die in physical form), have gender, etc. to me that’s still contradictory. Essentially you’re saying God can go against his own reality as described in the Mool Mantra - still trying to square the circle.

If God as described in SGGS is beyond time, then how can he exist temporarily? Temporality is a human perception because, as humans are finite, limited to time and space. God is not, there is no temporary world for him. How can he then come into existence in a form and go into non existence, (even if it’s in a non real world for a short time).

Also if God came in Physical form, as Manu, Vishnu etc so that people would “know” him. How could they possible know Him as WahiGuru if the form he came down in was completely contradictory to what wahiguru really is?

Let me put it simply like this in this way (please note I’m not making fun of any religion, but this is how I see the arguments put simply) …

God comes down as a Vishnu, born and raised, although different from everyone else. When he says to a person: I’m God, but I’m neither born nor die, I don’t have a gender, I am beyond space and time ect.

Person says: umm I can see you, you look male, you were born, I know your mom, umm you age like the rest of us, in fact your 15 years old etc …

God in Vishnu form: well this is not me...well it’s me, but it’s not me.

Man: So this is not you? You’re not real?

God in Vishnu form: No I am real, and it’s me, but it’s not me. The real me doesn’t is not like this, I don’t have a form.

Man: I can see you, you have a form, you look like a man, and you’re dressed in clothes.

God in Vishnu form: OK Look, this world is not real, it doesn’t last and I’m only here like this a small while. The real, true me doesn’t have a form, and I stay in the ‘real’ world, which is forever.

Man: So how am I supposed to know the real you, when you have come to me as completely opposite of what you say you are?

God in Vishnu form: Don’t think about it or try to understand instead try to feel the ‘real’ me, not this me, but the real me.

Man. That’s kind of hard when you are standing right there.

And we do this 24 times with different version of not the true God, but a temporarily different one. It doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

CdnSikhGirl · April 11, 2015

Truth Seeker, here is my understanding of how Creator is formless, and is also all forms:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 736:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥

Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.

The actor stages the play,

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥

Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.

playing the many characters in different costumes;

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.

but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||

and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥

Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.

How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?

ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

The Ultimate truth is ONE pure Universal Creative (formless) Consciousness. From this ALL forms arise. Consciousness doesn't just happen, consciousness just 'is' because its the base truth to all reality.

Think of it as a dream. This reality is as a dream... SGGSJ likens it to a dream many times over. Think when you dream at night. The 'YOU' that's dreaming essentially is formless (Your consciousness...your physical body is not in the dream). There are many characters in the dream, and they are ALL you. Even if you only interact and experience as one at one time only. In reality, every character, every blade of grass, every stone are you. While in the dream, those forms seem just as real as forms in this reality do.... until you wake up. Now, understand WHO is the dreamer really? This reality is another dream.

Creator, has no form (Ultimate reality), but has many millions of forms (everything within the dream). Those forms can even have their own dreams where they create again...a dream within a dream.

Kirtan Sohila describes it as thus: "You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses."

Creator / Consciousness has no form. It just 'IS' Yet, through its own creation, it is ALL FORMS. Yet all those forms (us) are only experiencing through a tiny veil of consciousness. The Doer, the Experiencer behind ALL of us, is one in the same, but our experiences differ because of this illusion of separateness. It's really ONE dream and ONE dreamer only.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

April 11, 2015

If God as described in SGGS is beyond time, then how can he exist temporarily? Temporality is a human perception because, as humans are finite, limited to time and space. God is not, there is no temporary world for him. How can he then come into existence in a form and go into non existence, (even if it’s in a non real world for a short time).

Also if God came in Physical form, as Manu, Vishnu etc so that people would “know” him. How could they possible know Him as WahiGuru if the form he came down in was completely contradictory to what wahiguru really is?

I see no contradiction, i see Unborn God(Nirgun) is expressing itself in visible form which appears and disappears, its a play. Here is great shabad of absolute reality in gurbani, starting of shabad is great absolute statement Ikongkar Satgurparsad (One universal Light/knowledge which is pure existence consciousness bliss realized by grace of Guru) - this is repeated each and every time in each composition in the beginning which means absolute reality is mentioned first, upheld first than relatives realties unfolds:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=736&punjabi=t&id=31585#l31585

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥

Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī. The actor stages the play,

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥ नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥ Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.

playing the many characters in different costumes;

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥

Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā. but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥

Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1|| and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥ कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥

Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.

How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?

ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥ Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.

Countless waves rise up from the water.

ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥

Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā. Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.

ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥ बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥

Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā. I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -

ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥ Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||

when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||

ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥ सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥ Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.

The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,

ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥

Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās. but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.

ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥

Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār. Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.

ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥ भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥ Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||

Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||

April 11, 2015

Satkirin_Kaur penji we mentioned the above shabad at the same time..lol..what are odds eh? hehe - enjoy

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

@ N30 S!ngh

Thanks for the reply. Some of your answers I’ve just answered in the previous post. (About relative and absolute realities)

“ 1. Gurbani fragments absolute reality further into relative realities-sargun/ sargun avtars etc to help seeker understand divine or transcendent in stages. Bhrahma,Vishnu, shiv are part of relative realities, they don't really exist in absolute reality-truth - Mool mantra points out absolute truth which is God is only one expressing itself via creation, destruction, preservation. It's shift of perception of seeker or shift of consciousness for seeker its not theological matter, it’s experiential. Looking at this from theological point of view, its fundamental profound mistake as thats not how it meant to be looked at.”

Your argument that God can have forms in this relative reality, temporarily - still states God can have forms. Although he creates a temporary reality, and comes for only a short time, but he does it nevertheless.

So what your saying is: God can have forms, live in time and space, be born and die – but in another reality. (ours) – a reality which he creates and controls. But in his own reality he is one. Although, how can a being that is beyond space and time bring himself into space and time is still beyond me. Like I said before, to me this is similar to say Christianity, were God comes as Jesus in this reality, (as a human) so that people may know him. Well not the real him but a version of him. And feel him via the Holy Ghost, a different incarnation of him. And when people go to heaven they are in the real true reality and they see him as Jehovah. Same parallel can be given with Brahma (the one God in the true reality – not knowable to humans but trinity can be in this worldly reality.

Also Christians, Jews and Muslims have God as omnipresent and transcendent. They don’t believe God sit’s on his thrown without interacting with his creation. I’ve noticed on this forum Sikhs (not all of them) have very limited or in some cases completely incorrect knowledge of other religions.

Some interesting points from Bijla Singh article:

Before I answer them, I would point out here that this is a Q&A section on Sikhism, not Islamic theology. I came here to learn about Sikhism not defend Islam, showing contradictions in Islam or other faiths. Showing contradictions in other faiths doesn’t prove Sikhism or its point. The only point that is remotely relevant to this topic of 24 forms of a formless God, is the starting of Bijla Singh’s article, when he says “To Muslims this simple yet so elegant concept is hard to grasp since Allah in Quran has love only for selected individuals and hates “disbelievers”. This is a non sequitur argument, he is starts by making a comparison between God is within creation and beyond (omnipresent and transcendent) and makes the conclusion Muslims can’t understand this because God in Islam hates disbelievers???

Out of the 14 random points of contradiction in Islam, everything from Alcohol to divorce and everything else, nothing is on topic here. If the Koran had 24 forms of Allah then I’d see the point of mentioning this here. Like I said I’m not here to defend Islam, if I have questions about Islam’s contradictions I go to the Islamic forums and talk to Muslims. I suggest you do the same or at least put these in the Islam section of the forum so Muslims on the forum can answer them for you.

As a side note, I’m not a scholar on Islamic theology, however I can tell from some of these questions Mr Bilja Singh doesn’t know much about Islam either. Just to take his first two questions: as far as I believe Muslims don’t drink alcohol because it’s intoxicating and harmful. In paradise they believe it’s not intoxicating or harmful but pure, hence allowed. The second question is about the Christian belief of original sin but aimed at Muslims?

Slightly on topic, compassion between God in the Abrahamic faiths and Sikhism, ALL of them believe in God as transcendent and omnipresent (Zahir and Batin in Islam, Sargun and Nirgun in Sikhism) however they all– like the oneness of God, differ on what that really means. I suggest you go to some Islamic, Christian and Jewish forums to ask them what they believe. For myself, I’m going to look more into the Sikh concept of Sargun and Nirgun to try and understand more about the 24 forms of God in Sikhism in compassion to the Mool Mantra.

Can someone explain this verse to me, I’ve never come across it before and I’m intrigued. Thanks for posting it.

nira(n)kaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. (Ang 250)

Thanks.

harsharan000 · April 11, 2015

And we do this 24 times with different version of not the true God, but a temporarily different one. It doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

Very good

at least here we agree.

Not only to you, but to neither of our sikh brothers makes sense either.

And not because of anything else, but for us, Vishnu is not the Supreme Reality, call it God if you want. Neither he, nor any of the other avatars.... all these gods, godesses, angles...are much much below Wahiguru, there is no comparison.

These avatars come to establish order and righteousness, while He comes for the sole purpose of giving freedom to whosoever comes under His shelter. Freedom from the clutches of mind and its allies, the vices... Only then the soul is totally free from absolutely everything.

Saints, have said, God is an Consciouss Energy, of the highest order.

So let me put you simple in this way. We as children, we have played with toys like battery operated soldiers or dolls for example...

The power making them function is the energy in that battery, the energy in that battery as container, has no gender, color, size, or name ....but its presence in different bodies, such as a male toy soldier, or baby female doll, does not convert that energy like the inert nature of those bodies ...

The energy is the same irrespective of where or in whom it is manifested. In a similar way, Wahiguru in a particular body, is that level of consciousness, never the body. The true home of ours as souls, is where Wahiguru is, and the fact is, we by ourselves can never ever reach there, not only because we are limted, but we are also weak...so unless, He, the most powerful, comes here and gives us His hand, we have absolutely no chances to get freed by our ownselves....

For example, some men as astronauts go to a planet out there in the space, and somehow they are trapped there ... the Spatial headquarteres are aware of this sitaution...so they send another technician astronaut to assit them, and gets them freed ....and when they all return to the earth, all of them discard the coverings on them, which were meant for the natural conditions out there ...so when they are back home, they remove those dresses and become normal here again...it would be absurd to keep dressing as astronauts here, isn´t it?

In the same way, when the (Atma) soul and Parmatma(Supreme Soul) reach their natural true abode, they discard all the three bodies, like the physical, the astral, and the causal ...Pure spirit in that Pure realm.

All the incarnations or avatars of the gods, godesses are in the boundaries of Illusion, at most, places like Swarg, or Baikunth...they too are subject to dissolution and grand dissolutions....

While on the other side, Guru Sahibans, Bhagat Janas, being the embodiment of Akal Purukh, the absolute Power. have no such restrictions, in them that Supreme Power works, and all other lesser beings, in the planes of Illusion, recognize the Light, the refulgence of that Supreme Being, no body can stop Him, as He is the Master of everything...and so, whosoever comes at their shelter, are carried across.

This is what I meant above, when I said, the soul drop is at the shore, the sea as mighty as it is, can not take the astrayed drops on the shore, until it takes a limited form of a wave, comes to the seashore, collects those drops at that time there, and takes them back into the Ocean and makes them one with the Ocean....

The waves will continue coming to the shore as longs as there are still drops out there, beacsue ultimately, sooner or later, the drops are same in essence and nature as the sea... The Sea is more consciouss of taking the drops back, then the very drops are conscious of their true nature...as they are mixed with the sand, thinking to be very much part and parcel of the beach.

So it is for this sole purpose, taht He comes here as Gurmukhs or Bhagat Janas or our very own Guru Sahibans. Christ also said, I and the Father are one, he who hath seeth me, has seen the Father. Nobody can go to the Father except unto me.

So who is Christ? Was He the body? No, He was that Power of God, working in that particular body, for that particular time being. When His alloted task was finished, He merged back into Hs True form of Naam, of Shabad, of the Holy Ghost or Word, as named in the bible.

After that, He has come at differnt places, in diffrent bodies, in different countries, in different communities...but always the message has been the same. Wahiguru is within your temple body, through a particular technique(meditation) vacate your physical body, hold on to that Unstruck Melody within each one of us, and reach home in his company. there is no other way, you may research the teachings of any such Gurmukh, be it may from east, west, nort our south...

Because if God is one, the way to Him has to be one, it can be different for different religions, different nationalities, etc.

Outwards, there may be differnt ways and methods to reach a particular place, but inwards, there where He is, it is only one way.

The way of Naam. That is why Guuru Nanak said: Nanak: Naam jahaz hae, jin chareeya, seyee, utareeya paar. He did not say, that in order to meet Him and merge in Him, one had to belong a particular religion, or do so and so rituals, or pilgrimages, or fastings, etc ...

The list of human nonsenses is quite a big one, and thus we are called manmukhs. cause we follow the dictates of our own minds, when, they have laid it all in a simple way for us in the Bani...but the fact is, we are donkeys, or even worst then them ... cause at least they have no sense to behave otherwise, while we having common sense, we prefer to behave as beasts ...shame on us!

Sat Sree Akal

Edited April 12, 2015 by harsharan000

harsharan000 · April 11, 2015

nira(n)kaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. (Ang 250)

Thanks.

It means, even if He is in a particular body as the Conscious power in it, it does not becomes limited or diminished,

His Shabd True form, is the same, if not satisfied, we can check it, by going within ourselves, and see it with our spiritual eyes, their Akhand Jot, the Jot of Wahiguru.

Here is when the Bani says: "Nanak, Sadh, Prabh, bhed na paee"

You see, the True Guru is not the body. That is why the Bani says:even if there were hundreds of thousands of Suns and moons together, even then, without a True Guru, the Shabad Guru, there would be utter darkness(ignorance, agyanta).

Why do we love so much our Guru Sahibans or Bahgat Janas?

Because we get the perfume of Wahiguru (Naam/Shabad)from them. Though we are spiritually blind yet. But we are attracted as bees to the Lotus flowers (them).

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited April 12, 2015 by harsharan000

Kuttabanda2 · April 12, 2015

wow ! wasn't expecting so many responses. Thanks guys. Still not happy with the answers, however too tied to go through all your answers and then reply. will do so tomorrow. This is quite interesting for me.

As a quick note (for now), it's interesting how Hindu deities are being reinterpreted as famous people in the past that were turned into deities. The Dassam garnth doesn't claim this, in chaubees avtaar or chand di var. Seemingly Hindu accounts of ancient deities are given instead where words like Lord, Devi etc are used to describe them.

again when you then say:

"They who leave Akaal Purkh, and start to worship Hindu deities,
They will wander through birth after birth, and will never find true peace.
They who do idol worship and do not treat another Sikh with respect.
That person is forever without a Guru, and is destroyed by the Lord of the world."

This further gives evidences of contradiction. (for me at least) I found similar arguments from Christians defending the bible.

Thanks for now, I'll give a more detailed reply tomorrow.

I used a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib on the dieties being famous people ( characters from History and popular mythology) part. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib's philosophy is only understood when in line with Guru Granth Sahib Jee, if you look at them as two seperate scriptures, with no connection to each other, and use no philosophical basis of concepts from the First and primary Granth then you will form incorrect assumptions and conjectures. At least in my opinion. Edited April 12, 2015 by Kuttabanda2

Kuttabanda2 · April 12, 2015

@truthseeker546

"yeah that's my point, on one hand you have the above verse, and on the other, you have chaubees avtar, chand di vaar. It seems to me that these texts were written by different people who had different ideas about who or what God is, hence the contradictions.

As for your point of the avtaar being famous people, this is a weak attempt to try and reconcile the problem. If they were infamous/famous people then why are they mentioned in the chapter of 24 incarnations (of God), there were many famous people throughout history. why are these Hindu Gods mentioned?"

The Avtar Katha was made for the Khalsa to learn moral and ethical lessons because those types of stories were more familiar to Indians, as Sikhi started in the Indian subcontinent. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Jee is supposed to be understood within the parameters of Sri Guru Adi Granth Sahib Jee's concepts.

Again, looking at Dasam Patshah Jee's bani like if it's a foreign Composition which is totally different to Guru Granth Sahib is not really smart, Because that's how people start doubting Dasam Bani.....and Voila! You have Bhasaurias and the Anti- Dasam Bani lobby.

If you consider it to be a weak attempt, than that's your opinion.

A majority of the Khalsa at the time was of Hindu Background, it's pretty logical to use historical and mythological figures whom they have knowledge of and can relate to. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee might have written about other historical figures and deities as well, we don't have his all of his Bani with us. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Jee was made with strenuous effort of Bhai Mani Singh Jee to collect as much as he could. There was also the Vidya Sagar Granth which had compositions of the Kavis and himself. Since it's lost, we're not quite aware of all of it's content, the same goes for other Banis of Dasam Patshah.

The entire Khalsa Panth uses Guru Granth Sahib's philosophy when understanding other Granths.

As for Chandi Di Var:

ਖੰਡਾ ਿਪ੍ਰਥਮੈ ਸਾਿਜ ਕੈ ਿਜਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ੳੁਪਾਿੲਅਾ ॥

"At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world."

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਿਬਸਨ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਿਜ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਿੲ ਬਣਾਿੲਅਾ ॥

"He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature."

ਿਸੰਧ ਪਰਬਤ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਿਬਨੁ ਥੰਮਾ ਗਗਨ ਰਹਾਿੲਅਾ ॥

He created the oceans, mountains and the earth made the sky stable without columns.

ਿਸਰਜੇ ਦਾਨੋ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਿਤਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਰਚਾਿੲਅਾ ॥

"He created the demons and gods and caused strife between them."

Note: Devte is used to refer to Hindu Gods (whom we don't consider to be God or divine beings).

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਿਜ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਿੲਅਾ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

-ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ/ ਵਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੳੁਤੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ, ਪਾਿਤਸਾਹੀ ੧੦

^ what does this tell you about Chandi?

"Chaubees Avtar was written so that the Sikhs did not have to rely Brahmins/Pandits. " umm so you have most of the dassam granth devoted to these deities. ?

that makes a lot of sense. ?"

So what if it's devoted to the Hindu Pantheon? It explains the Charitar (character) of each deity. Doesn't necessarily imply that the writer worships them or believe in them to be gods. Again, many of the Sikhs came from Hindu Background, do you expect him to use a figures or mythology irrelevant to their culture and social/cultural environment?

"All these Avtars were written by the 10th Guru and the absolute oneness of God was written by the first Guru - either they had very different ideas on God or these books were tampered or changed. "

Have you read the 6th chapter of Bachitar Natak? Sri Akal Ustat? Seems like you haven't.

"One person gives me an answer these were only famous people not deities, another says no, they are temporary states of God on earth. That's just to point out one contradiction. Is this because some of the people here belong to Tat Kalsa (akali, Nihung) and the others to Sanatan Sikh sabah (nirmalas, namdhari) ???"

Most people on here are groupies or members of Nanaksar, Nirmalas, Nihang Dals, or some other sect, and many times even within these sects, there are sub sects, and even within these sub sects people will differ on opinions, though usually the differences are resolved.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Kuttabanda2

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