paapiman Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 p.s. - I currently serve on the management committee here as treasurer. My sangat supported me when I fought for the right of Sikh women to tie turban in Canadian military, and when the story made it to even Indian newspapers when I became the first Sikh woman to tie dastar in Royal Canadian Navy, my Sangat bestowed me with siropa for opening the door for future Singhnis to do the same without having to fight for it. I am trying to be the change I want to see, by trying to make a difference where I can to uplift other Sikh women and girls. I don't actually do much langar seva... I was never good at cooking. But I try to do seva wherever else I can. Outside of being on the executive committee, I am part of the Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group and helped plan a National event at the base here, involving all the different ethnic communities and I was liaison for the Sikh community and the Hindu community here locally to raise awareness of who we are. All this even though I am not Punjabi. I am a gori who embraced Sikhi for the ideals it teaches in Gurbani about equality. I greatly appreciate your efforts in fighting for Sikh rights (even though you are a non-Indian in ancestry). You should be a role model for many Sikhs around the globe. All Sikh females should look upon you for inspiration. Once again, thanks a lot for whatever you have done for the khalsa panth. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harjots8963 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Satkirin IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MEN VA WOMAN EQUALITY. IN SIKHI BOTH ARE EQUAL. The reason as Brahamgiani Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale explained that woman are not allowed in the panj Pyare is because at the time when guru maharaj asked for 5 heads all were male. Again stop putting a western mindset into Sikhism. There is no inequality in Sikhism. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harjots8963 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 If a Brahamgiani with so much bhagti doing over 100 japji sahibs daily gives a bachan I'm not going to argue. And I'm not a taksali. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 When kalghidar pita asked for 5 heads and 5 Bibis came up instead I would only want 5 Bibis to give me Amrit.. If a man wanted to be in the panj pyare I would not agree with him cause 5 Bibis came forward and no man... It is not sexism it is just what it is.. For example kalghidar pita gave the 5 kakars which are kes, kangha, Kara, kashehra, and kirpan.. If somebody came and said I also want a spear or bow and arrow to be a kakar everybody would disagree... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 I know eh, everyone needs to calm down, our true nature is still achal morat as mountain pure still lake. just step back Wow where is that lake? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Satkirin IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MEN VA WOMAN EQUALITY. IN SIKHI BOTH ARE EQUAL. The reason as Brahamgiani Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale explained that woman are not allowed in the panj Pyare is because at the time when guru maharaj asked for 5 heads all were male. Again stop putting a western mindset into Sikhism. There is no inequality in Sikhism. Bro, I don't think she is putting a western mindset to it. Most likely, there are Indian women out there too, who think like her. I guess, we will have to respect their opinion. She always has an option of taking amrit from AKJ or 3HO, who have no problem with ladies as Panj Pyaray. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 When kalghidar pita asked for 5 heads and 5 Bibis came up instead I would only want 5 Bibis to give me Amrit.. If a man wanted to be in the panj pyare I would not agree with him cause 5 Bibis came forward and no man... It is not sexism it is just what it is.. For example kalghidar pita gave the 5 kakars which are kes, kangha, Kara, kashehra, and kirpan.. If somebody came and said I also want a spear or bow and arrow to be a kakar everybody would disagree... You are still missing the point... if replicating the original five exactly were that important then why is there no restriction on which castes can be panj pyares? There were only some castes who were represented.... How about black men or caucasian men... there were none of them who volunteered that day. How about different names? Maybe panj pyares should all have the exact same name as the original five? Hmmm what about strict vegetarian... Why is it the only thing that needs to be replicated as per the original their gender?? Also, Amrit Sanchar is SPIRITUAL rebirth... beyond this physical life, gender does not exist. IN fact... we are all referred to as soul BRIDES... therefore our souls are all feminine. Also Gurbani says that he IS the male and he IS the female. Therefore... really, it was the same ONE light in all who volunteered... and the SAME ONE light was also in everyone else in attendance that day. Also, the men of today, were not there that day. So why should they get to enjoy the laurels of the original five, simply because they have the same physical genetalia?? And as I said if it were the fact of replicating the original, then only those castes that volunteered that day should be allowed as well? That argument is weak. Five SIKHS gave their heads. Their physical gender had nothing to do with them volunteering their heads. Five SOULS gave their heads... not five penises. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 You are still missing the point... if replicating the original five exactly were that important then why is there no restriction on which castes can be panj pyares? There were only some castes who were represented.... How about black men or caucasian men... there were none of them who volunteered that day. How about different names? Maybe panj pyares should all have the exact same name as the original five? Hmmm what about strict vegetarian... Why is it the only thing that needs to be replicated as per the original their gender?? Also, Amrit Sanchar is SPIRITUAL rebirth... beyond this physical life, gender does not exist. IN fact... we are all referred to as soul BRIDES... therefore our souls are all feminine. Also Gurbani says that he IS the male and he IS the female. Therefore... really, it was the same ONE light in all who volunteered... and the SAME ONE light was also in everyone else in attendance that day. Also, the men of today, were not there that day. So why should they get to enjoy the laurels of the original five, simply because they have the same physical genetalia?? And as I said if it were the fact of replicating the original, then only those castes that volunteered that day should be allowed as well? That argument is weak. Five SIKHS gave their heads. Their physical gender had nothing to do with them volunteering their heads. Five SOULS gave their heads... not five penises. I agree with her, with regards to the above argument. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Bro, I don't think she is putting a western mindset to it. Most likely, there are Indian women out there too, who think like her. I guess, we will have to respect their opinion. She always has an option of taking amrit from AKJ or 3HO, who have no problem with ladies as Panj Pyaray. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Not just AKJ or 3HO. There are Gurdwaras who don't follow any jatha and just go by Sikh Rehet Maryada which specifically states either men or women can be panj pyares. I already mentioned that all of Kashmir follows only SRM. I am taking Amrit in Srinagar. And you are right, I am not thinking western mindset. I read Gurbani for myself with open mind. SGGSJ is our highest authority. Rhetnamas came AFTER and were human interpretation OF Guabni not the other way round. So any rhetnama should agree with Gurbani. And that is how I look at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Satkirin IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MEN VA WOMAN EQUALITY. IN SIKHI BOTH ARE EQUAL. The reason as Brahamgiani Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale explained that woman are not allowed in the panj Pyare is because at the time when guru maharaj asked for 5 heads all were male. Again stop putting a western mindset into Sikhism. There is no inequality in Sikhism. Bro, do you know if Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindrwale also gave the same reason? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Not just AKJ or 3HO. There are Gurdwaras who don't follow any jatha and just go by Sikh Rehet Maryada which specifically states either men or women can be panj pyares. I already mentioned that all of Kashmir follows only SRM. I am taking Amrit in Srinagar. And you are right, I am not thinking western mindset. I read Gurbani for myself with open mind. SGGSJ is our highest authority. Rhetnamas came AFTER and were human interpretation OF Guabni not the other way round. So any rhetnama should agree with Gurbani. And that is how I look at it. You are the BIG BOSS. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 When kalghidar pita asked for 5 heads and 5 Bibis came up instead I would only want 5 Bibis to give me Amrit.. If a man wanted to be in the panj pyare I would not agree with him cause 5 Bibis came forward and no man... It is not sexism it is just what it is.. For example kalghidar pita gave the 5 kakars which are kes, kangha, Kara, kashehra, and kirpan.. If somebody came and said I also want a spear or bow and arrow to be a kakar everybody would disagree... Then you would also have to restrict those from being Panj Pyares who were castes differing from the original five... using your thinking. Because nobody from those castes volunteered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harjots8963 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Caste doesn't exist in sikhi. Again Sgpc was dissolved in 1986. That was Sarbat Khalsa's decision. Damdami Taksal, Nihang Singhs the other Sampradays that Were mentioned are all Puratan Maryada. Sgpc came around in the 20s. If you want to talk about inequality then it would be the type of things like people saying that If a man gets Khanda amrit then a female should receive kirpan amrit. Now THAT would be inequality or against Maryada. If Sant Jarnail Singh Ji was senior then why on earth are the "sant"? Same for sant kartar singh ji or Sant gurbachan singh ji. Do you hear how silly that sounds? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a3w0d0CIvh4 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 My view of women can be in be in panj pyares if we see khalsa genderless. I beleive women can be in panj pyare seva as englightenment does not have gender(panj pyares were enlightened ones), its just from traditional historical perspective- panj pyare seva in five main takth of sikhism is usually reserved to only males as per tradition. This should not be seen as sexism or anything like that it just different duties roles of panj takth (thrones) of sikhism. Satkirin_Kaur penji we cannot really expect to change different orders maryada especially amrit sanchar panj pyares being male-from traditional maryada at five takths-five pillars in Sikhism, please take amrit from non takth groups which are acceptable in the panth as valid groups- AKJ/3HO/Dodra or SGPC be done with this dilemma already 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Then you would also have to restrict those from being Panj Pyares who were castes differing from the original five... using your thinking. Because nobody from those castes volunteered. You should only be worried if you cannot find any group in Sikhism, allowing women in Punj Pyaray. But there is AKJ, 3HO, etc which allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Therefore, you shouldn't be worried about gender inequality at all and be happy. Take Amrit and get the blessings of the Almighty Lord. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited April 20, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Caste doesn't exist in sikhi. Neither does gender: Page 23, Line 11ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਚੋਲੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਜ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ Āpe hovai cẖolṛā āpe sej bẖaṯār. ||1|| He Himself is the Bride in her dress, He Himself is the Bridegroom on the bed. ||1|| Page 1020, Line 15 ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥ Āpe purakẖ āpe hī nārī. You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female. Page 219, Line 6 ਝੂਠਾ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਰੈਨਾਈ ॥੧॥ Jẖūṯẖā ṯan sācẖā kar māni▫o ji▫o supnā rainā▫ī. ||1|| The body is false, but they believe it to be true; it is like a dream in the night. ||1|| Page 1403, Line 17 ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥ Āpe nar āpe fun nārī āpe sār āp hī pāsā. He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board. Page 93, Line 18ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥ Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3|| O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3|| Page 907, Line 7 ਰਹੈ ਗਗਨ ਪੁਰਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮੈਸਰਿ ਅਨਹਤ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗੀਣਾ ॥੨॥ Rahai gagan pur ḏarisat samaisar anhaṯ sabaḏ rangīṇā. ||2|| He abides in the Tenth Gate, and looks equally upon all; He is imbued with the unstruck sound current of the Shabad. ||2|| Page 1061, Line 19 ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਵਹੈ ਇਕ ਰੰਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਵਣੈ ਸਭ ਵਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥ Gẖat gẖat pa▫uṇ vahai ik rangī mil pavṇai sabẖ vajā▫iḏā. ||4|| The breath flows equally through the hearts of each and every being. Receiving the breath, all the instruments sing. ||4|| Page 1103, Line 18 ਦਰਸਨੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਭਏ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੨॥ Ḏarsan cẖẖod bẖa▫e samaḏrasī eko nām ḏẖi▫āvhige. ||2|| Giving up the different schools of philosophy, I look upon all equally; I meditate only on the One Name. ||2|| Page 605, Line 6 ਸਭਿ ਘਟ ਆਪੇ ਭੋਗਵੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ Sabẖ gẖat āpe bẖogvai pi▫ārā vicẖ nārī purakẖ sabẖ so▫e. The Beloved Himself enjoys every heart; He is contained within every woman and man. Gender is TRANSITORY. It's ONLY function is physical procreation. Outside of that we are find our TRUE identity which is genderless. Gurbani says that God is within male and female equally and says this over and over... yet humans still let Ego (male ego) get in the way of recognizing that gender is part of the illusion. Who cares if it happened to be five males that first time? See PAST their gender. It wasnt their penis that volunteered! It was the SOUL within the LIGHT within them that volunteered. And that SAME LIGHT is in EVERYONE male and female!!! God was equally within ALL present that day! see the SOUL and not the physical shell. Why are you so attached to your male form??? Why you do put so much importance on your gender? Edited April 14, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 We need to realize this issue of female being in panj pyares di seva isn't as serious as there are other valid sikh groups are doing such as AKJ, 3HO, Dodra..and in real life no one is raising any objection to it, in real life- sikhs are understanding, they understand they are variations in the maryada they go along fine, unity within diversity. It just for whatever screwed up reasons sikh youths online get worked up on these small arbitrary maryada details - spent too much arguing on this..Frankly, its not worth it when we realize and can relate to it immense endless infinite unfathomable ocean of knowledge in Gurbani all these small trivial matters cease to exist. I invite everyone to take a break from this thread, may be explore really deep profound topics we have on sikhawareness.com regarding gurbani, soul, mind, meditation etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Yes I am taking Amrit in Kashmir, and though they are no specific Jatha they allow women Panj Pyares. And have had female Panj Pyares. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Yes I am taking Amrit in Kashmir, and though they are no specific Jatha they allow women Panj Pyares. And have had female Panj Pyares. Enjoy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Yes I am taking Amrit in Kashmir, and though they are no specific Jatha they allow women Panj Pyares. And have had female Panj Pyares. As long as you are happy, it should be all good. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Whatever makes you are happy satkiran... Just don't have the idea that the contributors of this thread are sexist... But you still will beleive it regardless... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Let me see if I can show you how we differ in thinking...Page 599, Line 2ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2|| How you see Vaisakhi 1699: How I see Vaisakhi 1699: The physical shell is not the entity... the Divine Light within is. Once you learn to see past the physical shell, and see that light, gender no longer matters. This is how I have learned to see the world, and everyone within it. No matter their caste, colour, creed, ethnicity, or gender. I only see that light. So to me, there is no competition - no reason to restrict anyone because ALL are emanations the same ONE light. So to me, saying 'no woman gave her head that day' and use it as a reason to limit that light in any female form, does not make sense. I don't see female or male. Those are just shells that are being used. They mean nothing and will become dust. The entity is not the gender. The entity is the light inside. The gender did not chose to give their head. The light within those physical shells did. The physical shell had nothing to do with it. The Divine Light emanating from within did. And it's the same Divine Light within ALL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Okay okay 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) Bro my grandmother took khandey di Pahul from hazur sahib in 1980... My brother in law's cousin sister got khandey di Pahul from hazur sahib in 2013... It's something you heard but I have people in my own family who took Amrit from hazur sahib! Bro, have a look below. Proof that women were given Kirpan da amrit at Sri Hajur Sahib jee. This is from Gurbani Path Darpan. Bhul chuk maaf Edited October 1, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 SRM Sikh Rehat Maryada. Completely incomplete. Its too bad and it is sad. Close your eyes and do simran the truth of Sikhi will prevail inside of yourself. Completely poor judgment of laws. I shall ask all those who have 100% completely followed SRM and then re-took Amrit what and how did they came to realize the SRM has so many Flaws. Learn about the truth why some Puratan Gursikhs walked out. Why did the Sikhs walk out when Article 25 was being written. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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