Purpose Of Dasam Granth

[Guest Orochimaru]

What about in guru argun sahib jis time guru granth sahib was aad granth sahib and wasnt given gurgaddi , why did guru arjun sahib have so much respect bowed to aad granth sahib (correct if im wrong someone i dont havr good memory) aad granth wasnt guru that time bur why singhs and gurus respected aad guru granth sahib so much , because it is gods words, same as sri dasam granth sahib ji given to sikhs 

[paapiman]

What about in guru argun sahib jis time guru granth sahib was aad granth sahib and wasnt given gurgaddi , why did guru arjun sahib have so much respect bowed to aad granth sahib (correct if im wrong someone i dont havr good memory) aad granth wasnt guru that time bur why singhs and gurus respected aad guru granth sahib so much , because it is gods words, same as sri dasam granth sahib ji given to sikhs 

That's a great point. Fifth master even bowed to Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee. This is a clear evidence that Sikhs must bow to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, even though it has not been given the status of guru.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

That's a great point. Fifth master even bowed to Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee. This is a clear evidence that Sikhs must bow to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, even though it has not been given the status of guru.

Bhul chuk maaf

Then why does Gurmat Rehet Maryada specifically tell you not to? Are you admitting that you only follow parts of Gurmat Rehet Maryada?? Jus the parts you like? I thought you revered Gurmat Rehet Maryada as the ineffable words of Guru Ji himself?? 

Edited July 24, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Can someone please confirm the authenticity and narration of the below sakhi?

When Sikhs asked eight master about the next guru, Maharaaj had mentioned that you can bow to Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee, implying that Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee is your next guru. After that, Maharaaj had said "Baba Bakalay".

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[Crystal]

Then why does Gurmat Rehet Maryada specifically tell you not to? Are you admitting that you only follow parts of Gurmat Rehet Maryada?? Jus the parts you like? I thought you revered Gurmat Rehet Maryada as the inedible words of Guru Ji himself?? 

Ask AKJs why they  only follow parts which suit them. 

Crystal

[CdnSikhGirl]

I am pretty sure that none of the RMs actually ORDER anyone to eat meat!  One can be a vegetarian without breaking any rehet! However, bowing to any other than SGGSJ IS going against a direct order in both SRM and GRM.  

[Koi]

[Koi]

I am pretty sure that none of the RMs actually ORDER anyone to eat meat!  One can be a vegetarian without breaking any rehet! However, bowing to any other than SGGSJ IS going against a direct order in both SRM and GRM.  

[Koi]

To be fair Satkiran, you're just doing the same. picking and choosing to suit your point. You want to use the SRM to prove your point? Fine . then do you agree Guru Granth sahib Ji allows eating of meat?

The problem with using the SRM verbatim is that it tells us to only bow to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, yet tells us to believe completely in the bani of the ten Gurus. So:

- if dasam bani is accepted then we should bow to it as it us the Guru's bani. To make a distinction between the two is the same as saying the First and the Tenth were not the same. 

- if we do not accept it, we break rehat. 

Therefore, just holding on to SRM will in itself undermine your whole argument, and leave you with a logical falicy

[CdnSikhGirl]

That's the thing... Though some of the works in Dasam Granth are not disputed much of what is in there is not widely accepted.  I believe in The banis that are not disputed.  But I remain reserved on the parts that a majority of the Panth are also not sure on.  

Bowing to to something as Guru is different than believing and respecting... I fully respect Banis that are 100% accepted as being from Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I already said as such. If you are playing word semantics and saying that any bani equals the guru well then whatever... But the way it's written is gurbani is guru (as a whole) not single compositions but the entire culmination.  It's like an encyclopedia is not one article from it.  If I am misunderstanding then I'll take my words back but then it makes no sense to tell us directly not to bow to any other as guru besides Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  And how can We bow to something that's still experiencing much dispute even to this day as even being authentic?  (Pls check out Sikh Khoj and Amardeeps post about rise of Dasam Granth as it has much historical fact!!)

the reason as I said before that SGGSJ is Guru is not because of any single bani... It's the whole it's the culmination of the entire works put together.  At least that's my understanding.  

And to answer you in meat I'm not against Sikhs who eat meat.... if I ever gave you that impression then sorry... U were mistaken.  Though I don't eat it I never claim it's because of Sikhi for me it's factory farming and all the antibiotics and hormones being injected into the animals.  But I do eat free range eggs and dairy.  And many Sikhs who claim vegetarianism is mandatory would scoff at me for eating eggs... All I meant was no Rehet actually orders anyone to eat meat so if they choose not to, they are not going against any Rehet.  SGGSJ doesn't actually concentrate on physical things as such... From what I see it takes physical references and uses them to shift us to thinking about what matters.... Mind, ego, thoughts deeds and our relationship to Waheguru.  It doesn't come off as a rule book at all.  But I always look to see the metaphor the allegory and not just read the first line of a shabad and take it literally.  I read the full shabad and ask myself what is this conveying.  The bits about meat usually are in context of  "these people avoid meat but what good is that without nam" etc or "who says what is a vegetable or meat" pointing to the fact that all is one anyway... So I always try to approach gurbani looking at the metaphors and allegories to arrive at the real message.  

Ps it's not just SRM it's also GRM that says outright do not bow to any other as Guru.  

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Panj Pyaray are guru-roop.

Shastars are guru-roop.

 

Saadh-Sangat is guru-roop.

 

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee is guru roop

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 25, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

[paapiman]

When Maharaaj did parikarma at Hajoor Sahib after giving guruship to SSGGSJ, 5 singhs were at Tabeya and a shastar was placed near SSGGSJ too.

Therefore, Maharaaj did parikaram of SSGGSJ, 5 Singhs, Shastar and Saadh-Sangat.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

You claimed before that Rehet is most important over everything... and you claimed at one point that DDTs GRM is the actual word of Guru Ji himself... so do you follow GRM or not Paapiman?? 

I myself, follow SRM - ALL of it. Therefore I can not be called a hypocrite.  Yes this includes the meat bit. I don't care if some Sikhs eat meat - I don't but I don't force vegetarianism as part of Rehet.  

I am just asking you - do YOU personally follow ALL of the GRM?  You are always quoting it and trying to force it down other's throats as THE rehet maryada... the one EVERYONE should follow.  Are you saying you go against it on this issue/???  And don't skirt the answer... answer the question.

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Koi]

You claimed before that Rehet is most important over everything... and you claimed at one point that DDTs GRM is the actual word of Guru Ji himself... so do you follow GRM or not Paapiman?? 

I myself, follow SRM - ALL of it. Therefore I can not be called a hypocrite.  Yes this includes the meat bit. I don't care if some Sikhs eat meat - I don't but I don't force vegetarianism as part of Rehet.  

I am just asking you - do YOU personally follow ALL of the GRM?  You are always quoting it and trying to force it down other's throats as THE rehet maryada... the one EVERYONE should follow.  Are you saying you go against it on this issue/???  And don't skirt the answer... answer the question.

 

Actually Satkiran, it is seems that it is you who is "skirting" the question.

According to SRM, meat is permissible. However, is meat permissible according to the Guru's bani? If yes, no probs. If no, then probs. :)

In a previous quote you said:

"Bowing to to something as Guru is different than believing and respecting... I fully respect Banis that are 100% accepted as being from Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I already said as such. If you are playing word semantics and saying that any bani equals the guru well then whatever... But the way it's written is gurbani is guru (as a whole) not single compositions but the entire culmination."

The point is the Gurbani is Gurbani, whether from the First or the Tenth. They are read the same, treated the same etc.:

Nanak Guru Gobind SIngh Ji, Pooran Har Avtaar.

Jag Mag Jot Biraaj Rahi, Sri Guru Granth Majhaar.

Again, we all agree Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru. But Dasam and Sarbloh do not deserve any less respect.

Another question: Which baani's from Dasam do you believe in and which do you question? Perhaps we can take it from there to get a better understanding.

 

Small note: Loving the discussion guys! Thanks, and let's keep it clean ;)

[CdnSikhGirl]

I told you outright... meat is not prohibited in SRM!  I don't know why you keep thinking I am telling people that they have to be vegetarian... they don't.  I DO NOT EVER SAY THAT VEGETARIAN IS MANDATORY.... does that clear it up for you?????????? Or will you just post again suggesting that I said something against meat when I did not???  I told you about 4 times now that although I am vegetarian for personal reasons, I do not ever say that Sikhs must be vegetarian!!! Cleared UP??? I hope so!!!!  In fact I distinctly remember saying that Gurbai does not say anything against meat eating... it uses reference to it to draw our attention to something else.  In fact, in some verses it comes straight out saying that those who avoid meat for religious reasons are hypocrites - who is to say what is a vegetable or meat... so please  please please do not keep saying I ever said anything against Sikhs who consume meat.  As long as it's not ritualistically kllled (Muslim way).  So what question exactly am I skirting???

 

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Guest]

Everyone if they can provide closing statements on this topic, i think this topic has run its course.

My closing statement- Purpose of dasam granth don't even know where to begin, its very backbone of khalsa panth, if sri guru granth sahib ji is soul -atma of khalsa panth, sri dasam granth sahib ji is life force-energy motion force within the soul. Just like sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth sahib have to be properly contextualized, interpreted from absolute to relative aspects, looked into via different aspects of divine. Those who are against sri dasam granth or surely inadvertently against metaphysics behind sri guru granth sahib ji as well as sidhant is intertwined with each other. Leaving historical manuscript, dates aspect out of debate speaking strictly from metaphysics/gnosis/multitude aspect of divine perspective message in sri dasam granth sahib and sri guru granth sahib is one and same.

[paapiman]

The point is the Gurbani is Gurbani, whether from the First or the Tenth. They are read the same, treated the same etc.:

 

Good point.

Choice is simple.

SSGGSJ = Sri Dasan Granth Sahib jee OR Tenth master different from other nine masters

Choose one.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Closing statements:

1. Satguru jee, using three Gurbanis from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee for amrit ceremony, is a clear indication that there is no difference between SSGGSJ and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee.

2.  Fifth master even bowed to Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee (not yet bestowed guruship). This is a clear evidence that Sikhs must bow to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, even though it has not been formally given, status of a guru.

3. Different forms of Satguru jee are: Gurbani, Panj Pyaray, Saadh Sangat, Shastars and Brahamgyanis.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 25, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Good point.

Choice is simple.

SSGGSJ = Sri Dasan Granth Sahib jee OR Tenth master different from other nine masters

Choose one.

Bhul chuk maaf

DG = SGGSJ OR Gurmat Rehet Maryada... choose one.

Are you saying that you no longer hold GRM to be THE infallible rehet that EVERYONE must follow??

[mrsingh]

Thank you SikhKhoj Paji for the kind welcome :-)

You are absolutely right that bir ras existed within the Sikh Panth prior to the Arya Samaj printing presses putting together the Sodhak Committee with Khemu Ram Bedi (who personally decided that Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib was best lumped together with with the 400 odd Triya charitar sexually erotic tales).

What's interesting is that simply because Bachittar Natak states it many people are quick to believe that our Guru Sahibaan were all Hindu Kings in their previous lives who decided the order to the order of GurGaddi succession like a business deal.

I find that as equally insulting of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh as the allegation that these old Hindu erotica tales (Triya Charitar within Charitropakhiyan) were personally written by Guru Sahib (at a time when they were busy defending the poor, the weak and the needy from oppression, defending the Sikh Panth from potential Genocide from the Muslims and eradicating pride in ancestry amongst Sikhs in order to create a united Panth).

 

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by mrsingh

[paapiman]

 

I find that as equally insulting of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh as the allegation that these old Hindu erotica tales (Triya Charitar within Charitropakhiyan) were personally written by Guru Sahib (at a time when they were busy defending the poor, the weak and the needy from oppression, defending the Sikh Panth from potential Genocide from the Muslims and eradiciting pride in ancestry amongst Sikhs in order to create a united Panth).

 

 

Satguru jee had to defend his Sikhs from evil and cunning women too.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

Satguru jee had to defend his Sikhs from evil and cunning women too.

In other words, in your opinion, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is deficient in this aspect is what you are trying to say.

Given that the message of Sikhi is universal and not proscribed for one gender, how comes there are not 400 odd sexually erotic tales to warn female Sikhs of the evil and cunning men that exist in greater numbers?

[paapiman]

In other words, in your opinion, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is deficient in this aspect is what you are trying to say.

Who said that? 

According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?

Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?

Given that the message of Sikhi is universal and not proscribed for one gender, how comes there are not 400 odd sexually erotic tales to warn female Sikhs of the evil and cunning men that exist in greater numbers?

Some tales do warn women too. Have you read all the charitars? 

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

Who said that? 

Mr = It's what YOU clearly imply (given that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj to only consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as our Guru and to bow our heads to no other)

According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?

Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj 

Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?

Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.

Some tales do warn women too.

Mr = That wasn't the point. Given that Triya Charitar is overwhelmingly slanted towards the male reader it makes a mockery of Gurbani being Jagat Guru as a universal message for male and female. If the writers of Hindu pornographic tales included some relating to men then bully for them. It does not negate the fact that the overwhelmingly majority of Triya charitar tales denigrate women in discordance with Gurmat.