paapiman Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) 11 minutes ago, paapiman said:Who said that? Mr = It's what YOU clearly imply (given that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj to only consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as our Guru and to bow our heads to no other)- So according to your line of thinking, even Panj Pyaray are not guru roop. Why should we take amrit from them?According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj - Similarly, tenth master made another great ocean for us, which focuses more on bir ras and evil psyche.Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.- Who said that? A person can attain salvation, even by reciting mool mantar alone. Does that mean, there is no need for SSGGSJ?Some tales do warn women too.Mr = That wasn't the point. Given that Triya Charitar is overwhelmingly slanted towards the male reader it makes a mockery of Gurbani being Jagat Guru as a universal message for male and female. If the writers of Hindu pornographic tales included some relating to men then bully for them. It does not negate the fact that the overwhelmingly majority of Triya charitar tales denigrate women in discordance with Gurmat.- Female mind is more complicated than a male mind, if you believe in science. It makes complete sense that there are more charitars of women than males.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 - So according to your line of thinking, even Panj Pyaray are not guru roop.Mr = We do not bow before them as Shabad Bani but we do accept that they are roop/reflection of our Guru Sahib- Why should we take amrit from them?Mr = Because we as Sikhs should accept our Guru Sahib's guidance unstintingly.- According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj - Similarly, tenth master made another great ocean for us, which focuses more on bir ras and evil psyche.Mr = Agreed that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave another great ocean to us (authentic Dasam Bani). Nonetheless, the majority of Sikhs do not accept that the Triya Charitar sexually erotic tales are part of what Guru Sahib bequeathed us.Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.- Who said that? A person can attain salvation, even by reciting mool mantar alone. Does that mean, there is no need for SSGGSJ?Mr = Hardly, all I am asserting is that many Sikhs do not consider the Triya Charitar sexual erotica tales as Gurbani and nor do many Sikhs believe in the story about our Guru Sahib being Hindu Kings in a previous life who divided up the order of GurGaddi succession like a business deal.Some tales do warn women too.Mr = That wasn't the point. Given that Triya Charitar is overwhelmingly slanted towards the male reader it makes a mockery of Gurbani being Jagat Guru as a universal message for male and female. If the writers of Hindu pornographic tales included some relating to men then bully for them. It does not negate the fact that the overwhelmingly majority of Triya charitar tales denigrate women in discordance with Gurmat.- Female mind is more complicated than a male mind, if you believe in science. It makes complete sense that there are more charitars of women than males.Mr = Lol for the reason you have cooked up or should i perhaps say that I bow to your undoubted greater scientific knowledge ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) 26 minutes ago, paapiman said:- So according to your line of thinking, even Panj Pyaray are not guru roop.Mr = We do not bow before them as Shabad Bani but we do accept that they are roop/reflection of our Guru Sahib- Similarly, we must respect the Gurbani of tenth master- Why should we take amrit from them?Mr = Because we as Sikhs should accept our Guru Sahib's guidance unstintingly.- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee is also Satguru jee's guidance.- According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj - Similarly, tenth master made another great ocean for us, which focuses more on bir ras and evil psyche.Mr = Agreed that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave another great ocean to us (authentic Dasam Bani). Nonetheless, the majority of Sikhs do not accept that the Triya Charitar sexually erotic tales are part of what Guru Sahib bequeathed us.- Majority is not always right. Majority of the so-called Sikhs, don't consume amrit. Does that make them right? If we are unable to understand Gurbani, it is our fault, not Satguru'sDo you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.- Who said that? A person can attain salvation, even by reciting mool mantar alone. Does that mean, there is no need for SSGGSJ?Mr = Hardly, all I am asserting is that many Sikhs do not consider the Triya Charitar sexual erotica tales as Gurbani and nor do many Sikhs believe in the story about our Guru Sahib being Hindu Kings in a previous life who divided up the order of GurGaddi succession like a business deal.- If talking about sex is pinching someone so much, ask that idiot, how was he born? Did he jump off the heavens?- So what, if our Satgurus belonged to the race of Sri Ram Chandar jee? Why does it bother someone? Just because they are Hindus? Well, all our Satgurus were born in Hindu families. It is a fact. Some tales do warn women too.Mr = That wasn't the point. Given that Triya Charitar is overwhelmingly slanted towards the male reader it makes a mockery of Gurbani being Jagat Guru as a universal message for male and female. If the writers of Hindu pornographic tales included some relating to men then bully for them. It does not negate the fact that the overwhelmingly majority of Triya charitar tales denigrate women in discordance with Gurmat.- Female mind is more complicated than a male mind, if you believe in science. It makes complete sense that there are more charitars of women than males.Mr = Lol for the reason you have cooked up or should i perhaps say that I bow to your undoubted greater scientific knowledge ;-)Quote In this way, a woman's brain is a bit more complicated in setup, but those connections may allow a woman's brain to work faster than a man's [source: Hotz].Unquote [1][1] - http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htmBhul chuk maaf Like this Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Paapiman, if by complicated you mean women can multitask better then yes, studies done with women fighter pilots showed they can track more contacts at once in a 3d spatial environment. Men can focus on one task better. But in both directions it's a generality and....complicated does NOT equal evil and immoral. So what MrSingh is saying is that if Sikhi is meant to be universal then where are the 400 or so sexually explicit tales warning Sikh women about the evil and immoral men (which as he said are likely in higher numbers than evil and immoral women)?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Paapi - Similarly, we must respect the Gurbani of tenth masterMr = All Sikhs do. All respect authentic Dasam Bani. Most Sikhs do not consider the sexually erotic Triya Charitar tales to have been authored by Guru Sahib considering their earlier occuremce in canons of Hindu pornography.Mr = Authentic Dasam Bani is indeed revered as Guru Sahib’s guiding words.Paapi - According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj Paapi - Similarly, tenth master made another great ocean for us, which focuses more on bir ras and evil psyche.Mr = Agreed that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave another great ocean to us (authentic Dasam Bani). Nonetheless, the majority of Sikhs do not accept that the Triya Charitar sexually erotic tales are part of what Guru Sahib bequeathed us.Paapi - If we are unable to understand Gurbani, it is our fault, not Satguru'sMr = Agreed. But if pornographic sexual tales of Triya Charitar do not align with Gurmat then why do a minority of self-proclaimed non-Sikhs like yourself insist upon calling Triya Charitar as Dasam Bani?Paapi - Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.Paapi - Who said that? A person can attain salvation, even by reciting mool mantar alone. Does that mean, there is no need for SSGGSJ?Mr = Hardly, all I am asserting is that many Sikhs do not consider the Triya Charitar sexual erotica tales as Gurbani and nor do many Sikhs believe in the story about our Guru Sahib being Hindu Kings in a previous life who divided up the order of GurGaddi succession like a business deal.Paapi - If talking about sex is pinching someone so much, ask that idiot, how was he born? Did he jump off the heavens?Mr = There is nothing wrong in discussing issues of a sexual nature. But don’t ascribe pornographic tales to Guru Gobind Singh Ji and place these pornographic stories parallel to Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. If you want to watch or read porn, watch it in your own bedroom, don’t foist it on the entire Sikh Panth and place it parallel to Maharaj.Paapi - So what, if our Satgurus belonged to the race of Sri Ram Chandar jee? Why does it bother someone? Just because they are Hindus? Well, all our Satgurus were born in Hindu families. It is a fact.Mr = There is no evidence to substantiate that Guru Sahib are descended from the lineage of the Hindu God Lord Ram. Nor is there any historic evidence substantiating any Hindu Khatri Kings from the Bedi and Sodhi clans. What the majority of Sikhs object is the insult of GurGaddi contained in Bachittar Natak where it is alleged that these Hindu Kings did a business deal to divide up the order of the GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708. That is an insult of our Guru Sahibaan beyond measure contained within Chapter 4 of Bachittar Natak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) Paapi - Similarly, we must respect the Gurbani of tenth master Mr = All Sikhs do. All respect authentic Dasam Bani. Most Sikhs do not consider the sexually erotic Triya Charitar tales to have been authored by Guru Sahib considering their earlier occuremce in canons of Hindu pornography.Mr = Authentic Dasam Bani is indeed revered as Guru Sahib’s guiding words.- Humans are no one to decide which Gurbani is authentic or not. Gurbani is the final word of Satguru jee. Some content present in SSGGSJ is also present in earlier Hindu texts. Should we start rejecting that too? Mr = Agreed that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave another great ocean to us (authentic Dasam Bani). Nonetheless, the majority of Sikhs do not accept that the Triya Charitar sexually erotic tales are part of what Guru Sahib bequeathed us.- Majority can be wrong too. Almost all sects of Sikhism, which trace back their roots to tenth master, consider Sri Charitropakhain Sahib jee as Gurbani. Cults/sects which sprang during British rule, have problems with Sri Dasam Bani. Paapi - If we are unable to understand Gurbani, it is our fault, not Satguru's Mr = Agreed. But if pornographic sexual tales of Triya Charitar do not align with Gurmat then why do a minority of self-proclaimed non-Sikhs like yourself insist upon calling Triya Charitar as Dasam Bani?- SSGGSJ also talks about sexuality. So should we start rejecting those verses too? Gurparsaad, Daas will start a new topic on this issue. Paapi - If talking about sex is pinching someone so much, ask that idiot, how was he born? Did he jump off the heavens? Mr = There is nothing wrong in discussing issues of a sexual nature. But don’t ascribe pornographic tales to Guru Gobind Singh Ji and place these pornographic stories parallel to Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. If you want to watch or read porn, watch it in your own bedroom, don’t foist it on the entire Sikh Panth and place it parallel to Maharaj.- So why cannot Satguru jee talk about sex? It is a natural procees. Why are you so ashamed of it? Do you hate this God made process? No sensible Sikh scholar is going to do katha of Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee, where kids, teenagers, women, etc are present. One needs a certain spiritual level, before one can start learning from this great Gurbani. Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 - So why cannot Satguru jee talk about sex? It is a natural procees. Why are you so ashamed of it? Do you hate this God made process? No sensible Sikh scholar is going to do katha of Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee, where kids, teenagers, women, etc are present. One needs a certain spiritual level, before one can start learning from this great Gurbani.So, if it is in fact Gurbani.... then why would no katha ever be done on it? If it's absolutely 100% Gurbani written by Guru Ji then there should be no problem right? Oh wait... you just said above there that only men can reach that certain spiritual level required to be able to learn something from it...How degrading to suggest that men are the only ones who can attain higher spiritual levels. I guess this answers the question why nearly all the stories degrade women and not men! Also, how preposterous to suggest that someone is required to be a high spiritual level in order to understand basic moral concepts which deal with something that has nothing to do with spirituality, but instead deals with the here and now physical! If someone is already that spiritually advanced, I highly doubt they'd need a book to tell them that casual sex is bad! The ones who would need moral guidance about physical / sexual immorality are definitely NOT the ones who are already spiritually advanced! Quite the opposite! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsingh Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) Bachittar Natak (Chapter 4) "Dasam" Granth ਰਿਖੰ ਭੇਸ ਕੀਯੰ ॥ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਾਜ ਦੀਯੰ ॥੫॥रिखं भेस कीयं ॥ तिसै राज दीयं ॥५॥He put on the garb of a sage (rishi) and gave his kingdom to the reciter (Amrit Rai)5.ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਲੋਗੰ ॥ ਤਜੇ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗੰ ॥रहे होरि लोगं ॥ तजे सरब सोगं ॥The people tried to tell the king not to do so, but, he had abandoned all sorrows.ਧਨੰ ਧਾਮ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਗੇ ॥੬॥धनं धाम तिआगे ॥ प्रभं प्रेम पागे ॥६॥And leaving his wealth and property, absorbed himself in divine love.6.ਅੜਿਲ ॥अड़िल ॥ARILਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥दोहरा ॥DOHRAਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.ਚੌਪਈ ॥चौपई ॥CHAUPAIਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth Veda, you gave away your kingdom.ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in the fourth birth."9.ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.ਕਹਾ ਲਗੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਡਰਾਊਂ ॥੧੦॥कहा लगे करि कथा सुनाऊं ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अधिक डराऊं ॥१०॥To what extent, I should narrate the story? It is feared that this book will become voluminous.10.Paapi Ji as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh ... can you please kindly explain to me why Sikhs should believe the above story in Bachittar Natak ... which alleges that our Guru Sahibaan were Hindu Kings in their previous lives (solely from the Bedi and Sodhi clans) who supposedly (according to Bachittar Natak above) did a business deal for land and wealth as Hindu Kings to decide the order of GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708.Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhitan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously? Edited July 26, 2015 by mrsingh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post paapiman Posted July 26, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Paapi Ji as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh ... can you please kindly explain to me why Sikhs should believe the above story in Bachittar Natak ... which alleges that our Guru Sahibaan were Hindu Kings in their previous lives (solely from the Bedi and Sodhi clans) who supposedly (according to Bachittar Natak above) did a business deal for land and wealth as Hindu Kings to decide the order of GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708.So what is wrong with the sakhi?Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhitan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously? Can you please provide evidence that Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee was read to prostitutes? Even if it was, even SSGGSJ verses can be misinterpreted to perform anti-Gurmat activities. So should we stop believing in SSGGSJ?Bhul chuk maaf 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Koi Posted July 26, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Closing statement :Gurbani is Gurbani, whether from Aad, Dasam or Sarbloh Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.If we believe that all ten gurus are the same, then so is their bani. Whilst we all agree that Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru, Dasam and Sarbloh deserve no less respect.We've pretty much cleared up the issue of why the rule exists in the RM regarding parkash of Dasam at the same level as Aad. Hopefully the sangat worldwide will appreciate this and one day we will be able to have darshan of Aad Dasam Sarbloh wherever we go, by Guru's grace. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest isSarbloh100%Gurbani? Posted July 26, 2015 Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Some DDT dont do joint matha tek to Sarbloh GranthModern nihangs do joint matha tek to Sarbloh Granth obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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