Har or Hari?

[Ragmaala]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, Daas lives in Ontario, Canada. In which Province does your Ustad jee live?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro he is jus  playing around with you , what he means is that he learns the santhya through his inner intuition/intelligence. There is no Ustad Jee named Narsingh Narayan Jee. He was referring to the avtar of Vishnu, Narsingh Avtar. He is a Bhagat of Vishnu & Narsingh Avatar.

I thought you knew unless you were also playing around lol ;)

[paapiman]

2 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

Bro he is jus  playing around with you , what he means is that he learns the santhya through his inner intuition/intelligence. There is no Ustad Jee named Narsingh Narayan Jee. He was referring to the avtar of Vishnu, Narsingh Avtar. He is a Bhagat of Vishnu & Narsingh Avatar.

I thought you knew unless you were also playing around lol ;)

Bhagat Singh jee - Is Ragmaala jee right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

In regards to farsi words I do think it is important that Sikhs study the original langauges. There is a big difference in listening to the Zafarnama and Goya Ghazals read out by a Persian speaking guy and a Punjabi speaking guy. Hear these for example:

 

 

 

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bhagat Singh jee - Is Ragmaala jee right?

Bhul chuk maaf

Paapimaan I love you man.

Your innocence has floored me, I will tell you bro.

Plus I had my fun already so I'm ready to explain fully.

Ragmaala got it. He is correct. I'm talking about Waheguru . I was playing with you since you kept asking me who my ustad was. I only have Waheguru as my ustad so I thought, hmm what should I say?

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

So I said Shri Nar Singh Narayan ji. That sounded like a old Singh scholar so it was perfect. Then you asked me "What was his background? What sampardya does he belong to?... etc"

I thought about your questions. I thought, what if I took your questions literally, how would that sound?

It sounded funny as hell! Lol!

I'll decode my answers.

[Q= Bro, what is his background? ]

" I will ask him that next time. I met ustad ji many times, though it never occurred to me to ask him about his background. I just mostly talk about myself. Next time I meet up with him, I will ask him about his background. "
Everybody talks to Waheguru only/mostly about themselves. It never occurs to them to talk to Waheguru about Waheguru only, find out Waheguru's true background, not just what they've read or heard.

 

[Q= Which samprada does he belong to?]

"Well he doesn't belong to any one sampardya. He is kind of a freelancer in that respect.
Waheguru does not belong to any one religion.

 

[Q= Does he live in Canada?]

"Yeah I think so. I met Ustad ji in Canada. Where do you live? He could come meet you at your place too. Just give him a call. Here's his phone number - (286) 627-2926. Talk to him on the phone before setting the meeting."
I met Waheguru in Canada, if you call him, he will come to your place.

(286) 627-2926 is one of his names, if you look at your phone's keypad, you can decode it. If you call his name, he will come.

"I doubt he will come right away because he is a very busy man. He might show up at your house unexpectedly so be ready for that."
Waheguru may not come to you right away, when you call him. He may show up unexpectedly when you did not expect it.

"When you call him, show him how you pronounce the word. You might need to pronounce it multiple times. If you care about pronunciation and you show him how well you can pronounce the word, and if he sees you are determined to meet him, he will be more willing to meet up with you. He can judge over the phone whether or not you are serious about this topic."
This is the naam simran, bhagti marg. Pronounce the word again and again, and if the feeling is there, Waheguru will judge through the practice.

[Q= Bhagat jee was the student of Vidya Martand Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale, who was the 12th jathedar of Damdami Taksal (started by Sri Satguru jee - Tenth Master). The first jathedars were Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee Maharaaj and Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj. ]

"Gyani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale ji sounds like a cool guy.  Level 108? That's sounds pretty special bro. Ustad Nar Singh Narayan ji is at Level 1 still. That's nothing, I know. But he is still a good teacher though. "

Level 1 meaning non-dual, Oneness.
That's nothing, meaning that non-dual oneness is Shunayta (Sunn). It's not some 'thing'.
Even though Waheguru is not a 'thing', it still makes him a good teacher.

"I still think you should give him a call. He is still worth meeting with, honestly, even if it's only for a bit. I still meet up with him, even though he has already taught me more than I ever knew before, about a lot of subjects, including pronunciation of words. He is teaching still, after all these years. "

Stillness is sehaj. The non-dual oneness is obtained through Sehaj. That is the main teaching of the Guru. Once Sehaj comes into the mind, Sehaj then becomes your Guru.

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, Daas lives in Ontario, Canada. In which Province does your Ustad jee live?

Yes my Ustad ji lives in Ontario, Canada. Just call (286) 627-2926

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, Keerat Singh said:

Just to add to this discussion as Bhai Mani Singh ji is mentioned, please look at Gurbani Path Darpan by Mahant Surjit Singh from the Sato Gali Taksal. They do pronounce words in accordance with the language they come from. For example masakat is pronounced with sasa pair bindi. Furthermore adak is pronounced in the word. In the Damdami Taksal equivalent, adak is also pronounced. 

I do not believe all unkars and sihari are pronounced. A deeper understanding of the language is needed when it comes to pronunciation. Languages change and develop over time, as we have seen with the entrance of lala pair bindi in Punjabi, this has been introduced in order to preserve the correct pronunciation of words.  

Keerat, I agree with you for the most part.

The rule is  you you don't pronounce the sihari and aunkar. Unless it's on a ਹਿ or ਇ you don't pronounce the sihari. Unless it's on ਉ or ਹੁ, you don't pronounce the aunkar.

I believe that this is a general guideline for beginners. Those who are starting out can learn to read Guru Granth Sahib at a good level if they stick to this.

But I don't think this is the be all and end all of Gurbani pronunciation.

There are certain places where aunkar and sihari are pronounced, where you think they shouldn't be.

Just like there are many places where bindis and addaks, etc are pronounced. Also there are places where original words from source languages come to play. Those should be pronounced in accorance with source language.

All of that is advanced stuff, that beginners cannot grasp. But those who are good at reading Guru Granth sahib should continue to advance their vocabulary of pronunciation and start learning where the beginner guidelines start to break down.

In this respect, OP's question was a good conversation starter.

Har or Hari?

This is perhaps the one of the most obvious cases where the general rule falls apart. The word ਹਰਿ is a name. The sihari is not contributing anything to the grammar of the word. So the beginner guidelines do not hold up and the sihari at the end of the word is pronounced.

This word then is a launchpad into further discussion of where the Sihari and Aunkars should be pronounced.

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, according to the above, the word "ਜੋਰੁ" should be pronounced as "ਜੋਰੁ" and not as ਜੋਰ, as the word "ਜੋਰੂ" exists.

Is it right?

Bhul chuk maaf

ਜੋਰੁ is pronounced as ਜੋਰ.
The word ਜੋਰੂ is a different word altogether, with it's own meaning. Pronouncing the aunkarh in ਜੋਰੁ would alter the meaning of the word.

The meaning of the word also determines pronunciation.

So notice how even the rule I proposed for pronouncing aunkarh, as accurate as it is for some cases, falls apart immediately in other cases, because the reality is much more complex, because now you have different meanings of words coming into the picture.

That's why there are beginner rules for beginners that simplify the entire picture for them. And there are separate advanced rules for the advanced and expert rules for the expert readers that attempt to tackle the complex reality.

Somebody who is a beginner does not (and should not) have to worry about siharis and aunkarhs, otherwise they'd get overwhelmed and learn nothing. And somebody who is advanced does not have to worry about pronouncing ਕਾਦੀਆ or ਸੈੰਭ correctly. But an expert reader should be aware of how to pronounce words from different languages correctly, and ideally they should be able to do so with precision.

I am not saying I am an expert at it. If you asked me to do santhya from start to finish with the standards I proposed, I would probably mess up on every single page or take days to read one page correctly, looking each word up. I can't read Gurbani accurately at that level (at least not yet).

However I am aware of those rules, and I am aware of some of the cases where the pronunciation of the words is not as clear cut as you were told when you were starting out.

[Guest]

Hi all.  I am the original poster.  I thought it was Prabhu too (with 'u' pronounced').

What comes to mind is Bhai Gurdas Vaars.  When he explains the consonants of Gurmantra he says that each one stands for the Naam used in each Jug:

Vaasudev, Hari, Govind, Raam,

So I thought we do use the Sanskrit pronunciations- so say Hari with the 'i' (it is spelt Hare in places too).

Incidently, is Gobind and Govind the same word or different words? Because then we have one word with two different pronunciations written and used.

 

 

[Guest]

By the way what is Muharnee ?

[Guest]

*are

[BhagatSingh]

4 hours ago, Guest said:

Hi all.  I am the original poster. 

Dude by this point why don't you just register lol.
 

Quote

 

I thought it was Prabhu too (with 'u' pronounced').

What comes to mind is Bhai Gurdas Vaars.  When he explains the consonants of Gurmantra he says that each one stands for the Naam used in each Jug:

Vaasudev, Hari, Govind, Raam,

So I thought we do use the Sanskrit pronunciations- so say Hari with the 'i' (it is spelt Hare in places too).

Incidently, is Gobind and Govind the same word or different words? Because then we have one word with two different pronunciations written and used.

 

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ and ਗੋਵਿੰਦ are the same words. They are pronounced the same. The ਬ in ਗੋਬਿੰਦ is secretly is a soft b. (However in some dialects they are pronounced differently where the ਬ is hard.)

This is because a soft ਬ is the closest thing to v sound. ਵ  was seen as a w sound. So ਬ was used to represent the v sound.

That's why ਕਵਿ is sometimes spelled as ਕਬਿ. It's a soft b, used to represent the distinct v sound (separating it from the distinct w sound).

Another example is ਖਤ੍ਰੀ and ਛਤ੍ਰੀ. They are both pronounced as kshatriy (ਕ੍ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰੀਯ). This case is slightly different because the letter for "ksh" is not available in gurmukhi script. It can be represented well by both ਖ and ਛ. But neither one is accurate enough if you don't know how to pronounce the original "ksh".

 

4 hours ago, Guest said:

By the way what is Muharnee ?

ਮੁਹਾਰਨੀ That is what we are discussing. It is the way to pronounce maatras and stuff.

[paapiman]

13 minutes ago, Guest said:

By the way what is Muharnee ?

Guest jee - Please have a look below:

http://media.gursevak.com/Muharni%20and%20importance/01%20Moharni.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

Guest jee - Please have a look below:

http://media.gursevak.com/Muharni%20and%20importance/01%20Moharni.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

It sounds like he is pronouncing all the siharis like ਏ ਘੇ ਤੇ ਬੇ.

I couldn't find a Punjabi or a Hindi video to show a good pronunciation of Sihari but i did find this good Arabic video.

You want to pay attention to the Short Kasra. That is the Sihari or Chotti E.

Skip the first 1 minute.

 

[paapiman]

11 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Paapimaan I love you man.

Your innocence has floored me, I will tell you bro.

Plus I had my fun already so I'm ready to explain fully.

Ragmaala got it. He is correct. I'm talking about Waheguru . I was playing with you since you kept asking me who my ustad was. I only have Waheguru as my ustad so I thought, hmm what should I say?

 

Will talk to you in a pm.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

16 hours ago, paapiman said:

Will talk to you in a pm.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Anytime bro

[Guest]

wow.  thanks guys

[paapiman]

On 1/11/2016 at 10:06 PM, BhagatSingh said:

It sounds like he is pronouncing all the siharis like ਏ ਘੇ ਤੇ ਬੇ.

I couldn't find a Punjabi or a Hindi video to show a good pronunciation of Sihari but i did find this good Arabic video.

You want to pay attention to the Short Kasra. That is the Sihari or Chotti E.

Skip the first 1 minute.

 

Paaji, have you studied Arabic?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, have you studied Arabic?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Very little, kindergarten level.