Har or Hari?

[Guest guest]

Hi

I seriously think the word used in Gurbani is Hari.  But every where I hear it pronounced Har.

I was showing someone I could read Gurbani Saloks and he kept correcting me when I said Hari.  I dont see the logic in this.  Can some one explain?

Also in the Guru's names, you see it is spelt: Guru HariGobind Guru Hari Rai, Guru Hari Kisan

 

[amardeep]

What makes you think its hari? If you listen to nitnem of taksal its har all the way through.

[BhagatSingh]

Guest you are correct. ਹਰਿ is a Name. So you pronounce the siharee.
ਹਰ - Har
ਹਰਿ - Hari
ਹਰੀ - Haree (normally written a Hari also)

All our Gurus have two names, when they only have one name then Dev is added.
Guru Nanak Dev ji
Guru Angad Dev ji
Guru Amar Das ji
Guru Ram Das ji
Guru Arjun Dev ji
Guru Hari Gobind ji
Guru Hari Rai ji
Guru Hari Krishan ji
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji
Guru Gobind Singh ji


The rule as normally told to us is that unless it's on a ਹਿ or ਇ you don't pronounce the sihari. You never pronounce aunkar unless it's on ਉ or ਹੁ.

However that rule is broken many times.

Examples of names-
ਮੂਰਤਿ is murti not murat
ਆਦਿ is adi not aad

Example of noun-
ਭਗਤਿ is bhagti, not bhagat. Bhagti (verb) is what a bhagat (noun) does.

Commonly when speaking punjabi we say murti, adi and bhagti, but for some reason we forget that pronunciation when reading bani.

[Guest]

Not hari but hare pronounced 

[BhagatSingh]

On a related note, here's how I think you are supposed to read the manglacharan.

Btw no taksal, no scholar will/can tell you this.

Gurmukhi -
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈੰਭ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Read as follow -
ਓਂ ਸਤ੍ਯ ਨਾਮ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸ੍ਵੰਭਵ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ooooom... satye naam karta purakh nirbhau nirvair akal murti ajunee swaimbha gur prasadi.

Analysis -
ੴ is not a word. Like ਰਹਾਉ it is an action. It is performed. ੴ is Ek Onkar "One continuous Om". Hence you make a continuous Om sound. This is a really old tradition and is present in other Indic religious books.

ਸਤਿ - the sihari here indicates the ਯ. ਸਤ੍ਯ is original word and sihari mimics it nicely.

ਨਾਮੁ - I have never heard naam being pronounced with a short 'u' ever. I could be wrong.

ਕਰਤਾ - straightforward

ਪੁਰਖੁ - the ਖ here is special. It's not pronounced like kh. It's not sh either like how Hindi speakers pronounce it in purush.  It's more like kh and sh compressed - khsh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WYaMkcSIxM

ਨਿਰਭਉ - straightforward

ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ - I have never heard nirvairu ever so I think it is nirvair. But I could be wrong.

ਅਕਾਲ - straightforward

ਮੂਰਤਿ - The original word is spelled with a short 'i' at the end, and is pronounced as Murti. Hence ਮੂਰਤਿ is also pronounced as Murti.

ਅਜੂਨੀ - straightfoward

ਸੈਭੰ  ਸੈੰਭ the tipee ੰ is on the ਸ not on the ਭ. It is pronounced Swambhau ਸ੍ਵੰਭਵ
The maatra is meant to indicate the ਵ at the feet of ਸ. ਸੈੰ  is here pronounced as ਸ੍ਵੰ. ਸ੍ਵੰ means self, ਭਵ means existence.
Guru Arjun Dev ji writes- ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ਕਲਿ ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਦੀਪਾਈ ॥੧੮॥ Notice the spelling here - ਸੰਭਉ
Kavi Kalyya ji writes - ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵੀਅਣਿ ਬਖਾਣਿਅਉ ॥ Notice the spelling here - ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ

ਗੁਰ - straightforward

ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ - Prasadi? not sure. ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤੇ ਮਧਿ ਸੋਈ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

[paapiman]

11 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Hi

I seriously think the word used in Gurbani is Hari.  But every where I hear it pronounced Har.

I was showing someone I could read Gurbani Saloks and he kept correcting me when I said Hari.  I dont see the logic in this.  Can some one explain?

Also in the Guru's names, you see it is spelt: Guru HariGobind Guru Hari Rai, Guru Hari Kisan

 

Guest jee -  ਹਰਿ is neither pronounced as Har, nor as Hari. It is pronounced as ਹਰੇ, but with slight pronunciation of the laan. The Sihari is a lagu matra. Some people pronounce it as Har, as they believe that the Sihari is silent. There is no doubt that pronouncing it as Hari or Haree is completely wrong.

It is similar for ਮੂਰਤਿ.

Please listen to Bhagat jee, who has one of the best (if not the best) Gurbani ucharan in the world. Listen to how he pronounces  ਮੂਰਤਿ.

http://www.gursevak.com/readsggs

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

11 hours ago, paapiman said:

Guest jee -  ਹਰਿ is neither pronounced as Har, nor as Hari. It is pronounced as ਹਰੇ, but with slight pronunciation of the laan. The Sihari is a lagu matra. Some people pronounce it as Har, as they believe that the Sihari is silent. There is no doubt that pronouncing it as Hari or Haree is completely wrong.

It is similar for ਮੂਰਤਿ.

Tip is sihari
Teep is bihari
Tay is lanv

There is a difference between Hare ਹਰੇ and Hari ਹਰਿ and Haree ਹਰੀ

 

Quote

 

Please listen to Bhagat jee, who has one of the best (if not the best) Gurbani ucharan in the world. Listen to how he pronounces  ਮੂਰਤਿ.

http://www.gursevak.com/readsggs

Bhul chuk maaf

Best? haha. He's pronouncing it all wrong. It's never Namu. It's never Nirvairu. That's not how it works.

The best way to know when to pronounce aunkarh or not is to look at the dulainkarh version.

Example #1 - How to pronounce ਨਾਮੁ?
Ask, does the word ਨਾਮੂ exist?
Answer - No!
So ਨਾਮੁ is pronounced as ਨਾਮ.

Example #2 - how to pronounce ਪ੍ਰਭੁ?
Ask does the word ਪ੍ਰਭੂ exist?
Answer - Yes!
So ਪ੍ਰਭੁ is pronounced prabhu.

His pronunciation of ਮੂਰਤਿ is bad also.

It's  Muh - Rtih . Rtih is conjoined.   NOT  Muh - Rah - Tih, which is wrong.
The ਰ is not a separate ਰ, it's conjoined with ਤ.  Sanskrit: मूर्ति  See that hook above the second letter. That's a conjoined R.
The word  ਰਤਿ (Rah- Tih) is different from the -ਰਤਿ in ਮੂਰਤਿ (-rtih)

We say ਮੂਰਤਿ correctly in common dialect.
 

[Guest]

thank you all for responses.  i appreciate every single one.

[paapiman]

On 1/4/2016 at 2:44 PM, BhagatSingh said:

The best way to know when to pronounce aunkarh or not is to look at the dulainkarh version.

Example #1 - How to pronounce ਨਾਮੁ?
Ask, does the word ਨਾਮੂ exist?
Answer - No!
So ਨਾਮੁ is pronounced as ਨਾਮ.

Example #2 - how to pronounce ਪ੍ਰਭੁ?
Ask does the word ਪ੍ਰਭੂ exist?
Answer - Yes!
So ਪ੍ਰਭੁ is pronounced prabhu.

 

What is your source for above? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

14 hours ago, paapiman said:

What is your source for above? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

It's a pattern that exists in Guru Granth Sahib.

The aunkarh and sihari are not always pronounced. They are sometimes used as symbols of grammar and there is a way to find out if that's the case.

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

It's a pattern that exists in Guru Granth Sahib.

The aunkarh and sihari are not always pronounced. They are sometimes used as symbols of grammar and there is a way to find out if that's the case.

Paaji, can you please state which samprada pronounces ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabh) as ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhu) ?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

1 minute ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, can you please state which samprada pronounces ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabh) as ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhu) ?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I never said you pronounce ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabhu) as  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhoo).

There is a difference between the pronunciation of ਪ੍ਰਭ (Prabh), ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabhu) and ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhoo).

[paapiman]

1 minute ago, BhagatSingh said:

I never said you pronounce ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabhu) as  ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhoo).

There is a difference between the pronunciation of ਪ੍ਰਭ (Prabh), ਪ੍ਰਭੁ (Prabhu) and ਪ੍ਰਭੂ (Prabhoo).

Bro, Daas thinks (might be wrong) that you are applying Hindi rules on Gurmukhi. Have you heard Moharnee? Moharnee is the first step in learning the correct pronunciation of Gurbani.

Anyways, please state which samprada pronounces ਪ੍ਰਭੁ as Prabhu and not as Prabh?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[BhagatSingh]

Just now, paapiman said:

Bro, Daas thinks (might be wrong) that you are applying Hindi rules on Gurmukhi. Have you heard Moharnee? Moharnee is the first step in learning the correct pronunciation of Gurbani.

Many words used in Gurbani are Sanskrit words. So it helps to know the original word when pronouncing it in Gurbani like ਮੂਰਤਿ and ਸੰਭਉ.

Quote

Anyways, please state which samprada pronounces ਪ੍ਰਭੁ as Prabhu and not as Prabh?

Read my posts above. I am disputing the common pronunciation of gurbani as done by scholars and sampardyas.

The link you posted has the guy reading every aunkarh in every word. In my opinion, that's wrong. You don't read every aunkarh like ਨਾਮੁ and ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ but you do read the aunkarhs in words like ਪ੍ਰਭੁ and ਸਾਧੁ.

 

 

[paapiman]

38 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Many words used in Gurbani are Sanskrit words. So it helps to know the original word when pronouncing it in Gurbani like ਮੂਰਤਿ and ਸੰਭਉ.

Bro, many words in Gurbani are of Farsi/Arabic origin. So, according to you, we should pronounce them as the native speakers pronounce them? That does not seem right.

Sri Satguru jee has established a pronunciation system for us. The first step to it is Muharnee. All Sikhs must follow it. There are many languages used in Gurbani, all written in Gurmukhi. Most words, irrespective of the language, will be pronounced according to the set rules. We cannot use a different rule for a Sanskrit word and a different one for a Farsi word.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

25 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Bro, many words in Gurbani are of Farsi/Arabic origin. So, according to you, we should pronounce them as the native speakers pronounce them?

The answer is a big YES!

An example - ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
Here the word ਕਾਦੀਆ is pronounced as Qazia.
There was no letter for the Z sound at the time of Baba Nanak so he used the closest one to represent that sound.

In the Gurmukhi system, good pronunciation always triumphs good spelling. You should know how to pronounce a word correctly before you spell it out on paper. So you don't rely on spelling, you rely on a master who knows how to pronounce and learn from him.

[paapiman]

22 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

The answer is a big YES!

An example - ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
Here the word ਕਾਦੀਆ is pronounced as Qazia.
There was no letter for the Z sound at the time of Baba Nanak so he used the closest one to represent that sound.

It is pronounced as Kadeeya, not Qazia. Who told you to pronounce it as Qazia? Who is your santheya ustaad?

The closest word to Z sound is J sound. Sri Satguru jee could have used the word Kajeeya, instead of Kadeeya, but he did not.

 

23 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

In the Gurmukhi system, good pronunciation always triumphs good spelling. You should know how to pronounce a word correctly before you spell it out on paper. So you don't rely on spelling, you rely on a master who knows how to pronounce and learn from him.

Who is the greatest master - Dhan Dhan Dhan Baajjan wale Sri Satguru jee.

Maharaaj taught santheya to Singhs and Taksaals were established to disseminated that information. We should follow the Taksaals.

IMHO, you should go through the link below. Santheya by Bhindran Taksaal.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FGurbani_Ucharan%2FBhindran_Taksal_Santhya

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

 It is pronounced as Kadeeya, not Qazia. Who told you to pronounce it as Qazia? Who is your santheya ustaad?

Shri Nar Singh Narayan ji. He is my ustad for everything. He taught me how to pronounce words correctly.

 

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

The closest word to Z sound is J sound.

No. The closest to Z is ਦ. Feel it in your mouth. Z and ਦ sounds are pronounced very similarly.

American pronunciation of the "th" in the word "there" is halfway between z and ਦ. It's no coincidence. In certain European accents, like the French accent, "there" is pronounced as "zere".

So that's why Baba Nanak spelled Qazia as ਕਾਦੀਆ. He found it to be the closest letter. When you pronounce it you have to have that in the back of your mind and pronounce it correctly.

Remember when it comes to Gurmukhi, pronunciation is greater than spelling, far greater. In Guru Granth Sahib, the same word can be spelled in different ways however it retains its pronunciation. So you have to know the pronunciation, and to know how to pronounce certain words, you have to go to the source words or source language.

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Maharaaj taught santheya to Singhs and Taksaals were established to disseminated that information.

[citation needed]
That may be true who knows but their pronunciation isn't very good in the 21st century, as your link demonstrates.

 

[paapiman]

11 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Shri Nar Singh Narayan ji. He is my ustad for everything. He taught me how to pronounce words correctly.

Bro, what is his background? Which samprada does he belong to? Does he live in Canada?

Bhagat jee was the student of Vidya Martand Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale, who was the 12th jathedar of Damdami Taksal (started by Sri Satguru jee - Tenth Master). The first jathedars were Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee Maharaaj and Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, what is his background? Which samprada does he belong to? Does he live in Canada?

 

I think bhagat means Him lol

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, what is his background?

Bro, good question. Hmmm... I will ask him that next time. I met ustad ji many times, though it never occurred to me to ask him about his background. I just mostly talk about myself. Next time I meet up with him, I will ask him about his background.

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Which samprada does he belong to?

Well he doesn't belong to any one sampardya. He is kind of a freelancer in that respect.

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Does he live in Canada?

Yeah I think so. I met Ustad ji in Canada. Where do you live? He could come meet you at your place too. Just give him a call. Here's his phone number - (286) 627-2926. Talk to him on the phone before setting the meeting.

I doubt he will come right away because he is a very busy man. He might show up at your house unexpectedly so be ready for that.

When you call him, show him how you pronounce the word. You might need to pronounce it multiple times. If you care about pronunciation and you show him how well you can pronounce the word, and if he sees you are determined to meet him, he will be more willing to meet up with you. He can judge over the phone whether or not you are serious about this topic.
 

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bhagat jee was the student of Vidya Martand Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale, who was the 12th jathedar of Damdami Taksal (started by Sri Satguru jee - Tenth Master). The first jathedars were Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee Maharaaj and Srimaan Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj.

Gyani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale ji sounds like a cool guy.  Level 108? That's sounds pretty special bro. Ustad Nar Singh Narayan ji is at Level 1 still. That's nothing, I know. But he is still a good teacher though.

I still think you should give him a call. He is still worth meeting with, honestly, even if it's only for a bit. I still meet up with him, even though he has already taught me more than I ever knew before, about a lot of subjects, including pronunciation of words. He is teaching still, after all these years.

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Yeah I think so. I met Ustad ji in Canada. Where do you live? He could come meet you at your place too. Just give him a call. Here's his phone number - (286) 627-2926. Talk to him on the phone before setting the meeting.

Paaji, Daas lives in Ontario, Canada. In which Province does your Ustad jee live?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Keerat Singh]

Just to add to this discussion as Bhai Mani Singh ji is mentioned, please look at Gurbani Path Darpan by Mahant Surjit Singh from the Sato Gali Taksal. They do pronounce words in accordance with the language they come from. For example masakat is pronounced with sasa pair bindi. Furthermore adak is pronounced in the word. In the Damdami Taksal equivalent, adak is also pronounced. 

I do not believe all unkars and sihari are pronounced. A deeper understanding of the language is needed when it comes to pronunciation. Languages change and develop over time, as we have seen with the entrance of lala pair bindi in Punjabi, this has been introduced in order to preserve the correct pronunciation of words.  

[paapiman]

19 minutes ago, Keerat Singh said:

Just to add to this discussion as Bhai Mani Singh ji is mentioned, please look at Gurbani Path Darpan by Mahant Surjit Singh from the Sato Gali Taksal. They do pronounce words in accordance with the language they come from. For example masakat is pronounced with sasa pair bindi. Furthermore adak is pronounced in the word. In the Damdami Taksal equivalent, adak is also pronounced. 

Bro, how can Daas acquire Gurbani Path Darpan by Mahant Surjit Singh jee?

Do you believe that all words In Gurbani are pronounced in accordance with the language, they come from? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[paapiman]

On 1/4/2016 at 2:44 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Example #1 - How to pronounce ਨਾਮੁ?
Ask, does the word ਨਾਮੂ exist?
Answer - No!
So ਨਾਮੁ is pronounced as ਨਾਮ.

Example #2 - how to pronounce ਪ੍ਰਭੁ?
Ask does the word ਪ੍ਰਭੂ exist?
Answer - Yes
So ਪ੍ਰਭੁ is pronounced prabhu.
 

Paaji, according to the above, the word "ਜੋਰੁ" should be pronounced as "ਜੋਰੁ" and not as ਜੋਰ, as the word "ਜੋਰੂ" exists.

Is it right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf