paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 16 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: I have also given evidence from Gurbani to prove it is NOT part of Sikhism. The evidence, who provided, is NOT strong enough, as it can be used to prove that great deeds like doing Mercy and doing Charity are NOT part of Sikhism (which would be a false statement). There is a clear mention of HAVAN in SRI BHAGAUTI BRAHAM KAVACH SAHIB. How do you refute that? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Bhai sahib, which mahan Kosh are you referring to? In mahan Kosh, a third meaning, (ਅਸੀਂ, ਹਮ) is also mentioned which perfectly fits in the pankti you quoted. And if we say, in that pankti ਹਮਨ means ਹਵਨ then use of word ਕੀ becomes irrelevant. Trimandeep Singh Read what Daas said. "MUKH ARTH of Haman" 3 hours ago, paapiman said: Mukh Arth of "Haman" is HAVAN. Therefore, One possible ARTH of the above verse is Bhavani jee, please listen to my plea (via HAVAN). Bhul chuk maaf Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Damdami Taksal, which is one of the Puratan Sampradas, DON'T do it. Nanaksar doesn't do it. DDT and Nanaksar also do NOT do Jhatka. Jhatka and Havan are related. That has already been proven in this topic. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, paapiman said: Read what Daas said. "MUKH ARTH of Haman" Bhul chuk maaf Okay, but now what do you say? Which meaning of ਹਮਨ is right one according to your opinion Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Just now, Trimandeep Singh said: Okay, but now what do you say? Which meaning of ਹਮਨ is right one according to your opinion Trimandeep Singh The word "Haman" in that verse might be a "Dehli Deepak". Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, paapiman said: DDT and Nanaksar also do NOT do Jhatka. Jhatka and Havan are related. That has already been proven in this topic. Bhul chuk maaf Yes, I agree with your point that Jhatka and Havan are related. But when did I say DDT and Nanaksar do jhatka? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Yes, I agree with your point that Jhatka and Havan are related. But when did I say DDT and Nanaksar do jhatka? The point is just because DDT and Nanaksar (both Puratan Sampradas) DON'T do Jhatka or follow the Sukha Maryada, we cannot reject these rituals in our Panth. Some rituals are specific to certain Sampradas. The great Nihangs have preserved the Sikh ritual of Havan. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, paapiman said: The point is just because DDT and Nanaksar (both Puratan Sampradas) DON'T do Jhatka or follow the Sukha Maryada, we cannot reject these rituals in our Panth. Yes, you can be right here. This is possible. 6 minutes ago, paapiman said: Some rituals are specific to certain Sampradas. They may be. But we need to judge if they are according to gurmat or not. Your points are convincing. So, conclusion is- Havan may be in line with Gurmat or maybe not. At the end, you have accepted it as Gurmat and I respectfully reject it (but respect those who do it). I think it was fun doing vichar on bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Thank you Paapiman Ji Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Yes, you can be right here. This is possible. They may be. But we need to judge if they are according to gurmat or not. Your points are convincing. So, conclusion is- Havan may be in line with Gurmat or maybe not. At the end, you have accepted it as Gurmat and I respectfully reject it (but respect those who do it). I think it was fun doing vichar on bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Thank you Paapiman Ji Trimandeep Singh Thanks a lot for sharing verses from Sri Dasam Gurbani. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 36 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Bhai sahib, which mahan Kosh are you referring to? And if we say, in that pankti ਹਮਨ means ਹਵਨ then use of word ਕੀ becomes irrelevant. Isn't there only ONE Mahan Kosh in our Panth? The one by Bhai Kahn Singh jee Nabha. Did you apply Gurbani Grammar on that verse? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, paapiman said: Did you apply Gurbani Grammar on that verse? Yes, only then did I realize ਕੀ becomes irrelevant if Haman means Havan. But still grammar applied only according to my limited knowledge. Trimandeep Singh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 11 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Yes, only then did I realize ਕੀ becomes irrelevant if Haman means Havan. But still grammar applied only according to my limited knowledge. Trimandeep Singh Thanks bro. This verse might have multiple interpretations. ਭਵਾਨੀ can also refer to Gurbani. ਭ + ਵਾਨੀ ਭ - Means Prakash ਵਾਨੀ - Mean Bani Prakash wali Bani, which is definitely referring to Gurbani. Can you please form an Arth based on grammar now? Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ ਸੁਣਹੁ= Please listen ਭਵਾਨੀ= Durga Ji (At a deeper level, Vaheguru Ji only because he has described him in verses before this pankti and it is Vaheguru Ji who works through avatars) ਹਮਨ= Mine(ਸਾਡੀ) ਪੁਕਾਰੇ= plea ਕਰਹੁ= please do ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ= Beant kirpa [Oh Bhavani (Vaheguru, creator of durga), please listen to my plea Shower your blessings on this servant.] ********************* But again, these may be wrong. Beliefs also play a role in interpreting meanings. For me, Yagya is not gurmat. But Daas is pretty sure (no bias for Yagya but honest opinion), that 'Me' is right meaning of Haman in the pankti.(ਹੋਰ ਢੁਕਦਾ ਹੈ) Differences in belief were also a reason behind conflicting meanings among Teekakars like Prof sahib singh, Gyani Harbans Singh, Nirmale scholars etc. Bhul chuk maaf Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, paapiman said: This is a good question. Daas still doesn't know the exact answer to this question. I might be wrong here, but Agni Devta is probably considered to be a POSTMAN of Sri Waheguru jee. So it is possible that he may be able to help us, when GURMAT HAVAN in done. The other elements also have significance in GURMAT. We already know the significance of WATER in Gurmat. It can be turned into Amrit. Well, AIR is very important for breathing. Jaaps can be done, with inhalation and exhalation in different sequences. It is also probably a good idea to sit on the ground (EARTH), while doing meditation. Bhul chuk maaf @Trimandeep Singh - You do believe in Paras Kala of Gurbani right? If yes, you should have no problem in believing that when Gurmat Havan is being done, the Agni is being affected by the Gurbani Mantars. Is that right? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ ਸੁਣਹੁ= Please listen ਭਵਾਨੀ= Durga Ji (At a deeper level, Vaheguru Ji only because he has described him in verses before this pankti and it is Vaheguru Ji who works through avatars) ਹਮਨ= Mine(ਸਾਡੀ) ਪੁਕਾਰੇ= plea ਕਰਹੁ= please do ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ= Beant kirpa [Oh Bhavani (Vaheguru, creator of durga), please listen to my plea Shower your blessings on this servant.] Daas might be wrong too, but IMHO, this might be ONE of the Arths of the above verses. ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ - Please listen to me AKAAL SHAKTI. ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ - My Plea through HAVAN.. ਹਮਨ is used as a Dehli Deepak. In the first phrase, ਹਮਨ mean mine and in the second part, it means HAVAN. Therefore, the Arth might be as follows: Please listen to me, Oh Power of Almighty God, my Plea through HAVAN Shower your blessings on this servant. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akali dilsidak singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said: At a deeper level, Guru sahib is not asking Durga but Akaal Purakh who is creator of Bhavani. Guru sahib has used 'Maa' for Akaal Purakh also. ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ I am in ecstasy, O my mother, for I have found my True Guru. galt arth krye ho tuc bhavani is the name for creator itself ਸੋਈ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਗਰੀ ਯਹ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥੨੯॥ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akali dilsidak singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said: THESE ARE KARAM KAAND. sorry but you dont even know what karam kand is please study in taksal learn properly what is karam kaand and what it means please jioooo and singho hawan gupt hunde ne net te os baare gall krn da koi faida nhi taksal ja dalpanth aake pta kr skde ho because new samprdas which are not more than 70-100 years old deny hawan. naale parikarama krna matha tekna also comes in karam kaand and there is another kaand known as upasna kaand 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, akali dilsidak singh said: galt arth krye ho tuc bhavani is the name for creator itself ਸੋਈ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਗਰੀ ਯਹ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥੨੯॥ ਭਵਾਨੀ has multiple meanings bro. In the below verses, ਭਵਾਨੀ refers to Sri Durga jee. ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain. ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, akali dilsidak singh said: and singho hawan gupt hunde ne net te os baare gall krn da koi faida nhi taksal ja dalpanth aake pta kr skde ho Bro, not everyone can go to Punjab and ask those Singhs about Havan. If you have any info on how to perform a Havan, please do kindly share. Daas is in Canada. Thanks a lot Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 21 minutes ago, akali dilsidak singh said: galt arth krye ho tuc bhavani is the name for creator itself ਸੋਈ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਗਰੀ ਯਹ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥੨੯॥ How is his Arth wrong? Even he is saying that ਭਵਾਨੀ is Akal Purakh himself. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 28 minutes ago, paapiman said: ਭਵਾਨੀ has multiple meanings bro. In the below verses, ਭਵਾਨੀ refers to Sri Durga jee. ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain. ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there. Bhul chuk maaf I was going to quote exact same pankti. : ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: @Trimandeep Singh - You do believe in Paras Kala of Gurbani right? If yes, you should have no problem in believing that when Gurmat Havan is being done, the Agni is being affected by the Gurbani Mantars. Is that right? Bhul chuk maaf I believe in paras Kala. If we read bani near water, it becomes amrit, provided gurmukh is rehitvaan naam abhiyasi. If someone listens to Kirtan, it does have effect on him/her. In both acts, water around which bani was read is consumed and in the second one, amrit bani goes into our ears. In Havan, what role does the fire play? If you say while reading bani, it is going in our ears, then even in absence of fire, bani will go in our ears. The role of fire hasn't been told by any of the people who support heaven. You did say that Agni Devta is postman of Vaheguru. But, still without him Vaheguru will listen to us. We don't need anyone to send our message to Vaheguru. Bani is itself a talk with Guru sahib. Note: Veerji, politely Keh reha haan. Trimandeep Singh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Daas might be wrong too, but IMHO, this might be ONE of the Arths of the above verses. ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ - Please listen to me AKAAL SHAKTI. ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ - My Plea through HAVAN.. ਹਮਨ is used as a Dehli Deepak. In the first phrase, ਹਮਨ mean mine and in the second part, it means HAVAN. Therefore, the Arth might be as follows: Please listen to me, Oh Power of Almighty God, my Plea through HAVAN Shower your blessings on this servant. Bhul chuk maaf This is my opinion (not trying to prove yagya gurmat or not, but honest opinion) ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ= Please listen oh Bhavani ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ means plea of. Whose pukaar? If you put meaning Havan then, oh Bhavani listen to plea OF Havan which doesn't make sense. Hence, ਹਮਨ needs to be a living person pleaing to someone. Also, as per your arth, how does ਕੀ mean 'through'? As per your ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ means plea through Havan but how does ਕੀ mean through? Note: Veerji, speaking in polite tone. Trimandeep Singh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said: I believe in paras Kala. If we read bani near water, it becomes amrit, provided gurmukh is rehitvaan naam abhiyasi. If someone listens to Kirtan, it does have effect on him/her. In both acts, water around which bani was read is consumed and in the second one, amrit bani goes into our ears. In Havan, what role does the fire play? If you say while reading bani, it is going in our ears, then even in absence of fire, bani will go in our ears. The role of fire hasn't been told by any of the people who support heaven. You did say that Agni Devta is postman of Vaheguru. But, still without him Vaheguru will listen to us. We don't need anyone to send our message to Vaheguru. Bani is itself a talk with Guru sahib. Note: Veerji, politely Keh reha haan. Trimandeep Singh Doesn't the heat energy of the fire go inside the body? If Gurbani can turn Water into Amrit, it can ALSO turn Fire into SOMETHING. Doesn't it make sense? The Paras Kala of Gurbani will definitely have an effect on Fire. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said: This is my opinion (not trying to prove yagya gurmat or not, but honest opinion) ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ= Please listen oh Bhavani ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ means plea of. Whose pukaar? If you put meaning Havan then, oh Bhavani listen to plea OF Havan which doesn't make sense. Hence, ਹਮਨ needs to be a living person pleaing to someone. Also, as per your arth, how does ਕੀ mean 'through'? As per your ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ means plea through Havan but how does ਕੀ mean through? Note: Veerji, speaking in polite tone. Trimandeep Singh In Punjabi, we might say "Dharti dee Pukaar". Similarly, that verse might be saying "Havan dee Pukaar". So, maybe the Arth might be as follows: ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ; ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ Oh Bhavani (Sri Aad Shakti), listen to the call of the Havan. How's that bro? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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