Nearly 10 million Sikhs have lost their religion because of this organisation

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

Long and uncut hair are two different things.I don't think Indians kept uncut hair apart from Rishi muni's

Indians kept long hair.

Warriors, saints, common people, not everyone but certainly many did.

In that sakhi, Guru Gobind Singh ji points this out and says - keeping hair is part of Indian tradition.

This was his motivation, at least partly, for instilling it into Khalsa.

[angy15]

21 hours ago, paapiman said:

We need to set a minimum criteria for people who can become members of major religious organizations. If a prospective member is a non-Amritdhari, then at least he should be away from the 4 cardinal sins.

Then the very idea that sikh is auniversal religion becomes questionable.When the foundation stone of Harmandir shaib was laid down by a muslim saint.When it has four entrance representing entrance to all four caste.It was to show that anyone and anybody can come and gain spiritual wisdom irrespective of his situation .

 

On 4/29/2018 at 11:55 AM, angy15 said:

In 2008, the SGPC disallowed Bhai Ghulam Mohammad Chand, a descendant of Guru Nanak’s life-long friend and musician Bhai Mardana – arguably the first Sikh – from singing a devotional song in the Golden Temple because he was not Amritdhari.

Above incident indicates that when  we bound ourself with a  belief system than a  conflict is inevitable .When we have belief system  we try to make it common everywhere trying to impose it on everyone.

If we go by  logic of SGPC quoted above  then  all Bhagats (15 bhagats), Bhatts (11 bhatts)  are  disallowed  beacuse they have to prove that they are amritdhari.

You can Allow Queen of England  wear socks and a hat enter Darbar Sahib. 

We have reduced the Sikh religion  into a set of believes.

Religion cannot be abt belief system .Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a perfect example of it without any conflict.

Satnam

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Visiting is not the same as Saving. Kabir ji is referring to the Saint that taught him and saved him. And that Saint is Guru Ramanand ji.

But isn't ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ a plural word? So, how can it refer to only one personality?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Wasn't it obvious from my clarification on ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ? Are you sure you watched the videos you posted, Paapiman bhra ji

Daas does not remember all the arths of the verse (the video was posted in 2016) , but remembers the one which can be interpreted to mean that Sri Waheguru jee desires people to keep kesh.

If you heard the katha links, why did you say this then?

On 4/30/2018 at 10:00 PM, BhagatSingh said:

There is no mention of keeping kesh in Guru Granth Sahib. I looked through your thread and there is none there either.

Do you believe that their interpretations are wrong?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

But isn't ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ a plural word? So, how can it refer to only one personality?

Yes it is. It is referring to the whole group that Kabir ji hangs around with, Guru Ramanand ji and his sikhs.

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Daas does not remember all the arths of the verse (the video was posted in 2016) , but remembers the one which can be interpreted to mean that Sri Waheguru jee desires people to keep kesh.

Waheguru ji wants some people to shave their head also, as much as we may not like that.

Quote

If you heard the katha links, why did you say this then?

Watch that video you posted, 1 hour time stamp one, and then read my reply and it will make more sense.

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Do you believe that their interpretations are wrong?

Talk to me about your interpretation.

1. What have you interpreted (in what way) and 2. why? (on what basis)

and we can talk about it.

If you ask me why don't you like that interpretation by XYZ person? like as a hypothetical, then I don't care to discuss it.

If i am speaking to you I just care about you and what is relevant to you.

So tell me about you and I am willing to discuss it.

[paapiman]

6 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Talk to me about your interpretation.

Daas believes that their interpretations are right as they are Sampradai Gyani. They learnt those arths from Taksali Mahapurakhs or their teekas.
 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 4/30/2018 at 10:00 PM, BhagatSingh said:

It only has multiple interpretations if your ideological disposition is so inflexible that you cannot swallow its actual meaning.

Multiple correct interpretations.

 

On 4/30/2018 at 10:00 PM, BhagatSingh said:

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥  
Kabir ji says when one (ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ) loves the Oneness, then the (ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ) feeling of two (the feeling of having a separate and independent sense of self) goes away.
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ 
It does not matter (ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ) whether you keep long hair or matted hair, or whether you (ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ) shave your hair.

The above interpretation is right, especially from a contextual perspective as a Sadhu (with matted hair) and a bald Sadhu (who were having a discussion) were given a reply by Bhagat jee to their question via the above verse.

But, to state that this is the only correct interpretation of the above verses is a sign of a shallow intellect and narrow mindedness. Gurbani verses are like a ocean. Can you imagine a person trying to contain it in a small water bottle?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

30 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Waheguru ji wants some people to shave their head also, as much as we may not like that

And why would you say that? Evidence from Gurbani? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 4/30/2018 at 10:00 PM, BhagatSingh said:

ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ does not mean ਘਰ ਮੁੜ ਆਇ - to return home

That arth which is based on ਘਰ ਮੁੜ ਆਇ is not relevant to this discussion.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

18 minutes ago, paapiman said:

The above interpretation is right, especially from a contextual perspective as a Sadhu (with matted hair) and a bald Sadhu (who were having a discussion) were given a reply by Bhagat jee to their question via the above verse.

@BhagatSingh

Apologize bro for providing incorrect information.

The uthanka of those verses is as follows:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:02 PM, paapiman said:

@BhagatSingh

Apologize bro for providing incorrect information.

The uthanka of those verses is as follows:

That's correct.

This is interpretation is derived from the correct translation and interpretation.

It is an extension of what keeping hair and shaving mean within a broader context of a culture or tradition. Keeping hair could mean asceticism or it could mean house-holder's life depending on culture.

The meaning is that keeping hair / shaving is not relevant when it comes to losing the sense of self and merging into everything, and neither is the life of a householder / cave-dwealler / monk in a monastery.

It is encapsulated concisely in Guru Nanak Dev ji's words.

Je jaanase Brahmam karamam, sabh phokat nischau karamam.

 

On 5/2/2018 at 5:55 PM, paapiman said:

That arth which is based on ਘਰ ਮੁੜ ਆਇ is not relevant to this discussion.

When a bad translation leads to an incorrect interpretation of the verse we are discussing, then it is very relevant to the discussion.

On 5/2/2018 at 5:46 PM, paapiman said:

And why would you say that? Evidence from Gurbani?  

Evidence for what? That everything that happens is because Waheguru ji wants it to happen?

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, angy15 said:

It was to show that anyone and anybody can come and gain spiritual wisdom irrespective of his situation .

That is correct, but that does not mean that the leadership/management of Sikh organizations can also be given to anyone and anybody. Sikh organizations must be led by Rehatvaan Gurmukhs. Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) clearly gave leadership duties of the Panth to the Panj Pyare.

12 hours ago, angy15 said:

When the foundation stone of Harmandir shaib was laid down by a muslim saint.

Just letting you know that the above theory is not accepted by all Sikh scholars. Maybe a discussion for a different topic.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

Evidence for what? That everything that happens is because Waheguru ji wants it to happen?

 

3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Waheguru ji wants some people to shave their head also, as much as we may not like that.

Everything happens under his watch. But that does not mean that God wants people to perform bad deeds.

It is like saying that Waheguru jee wants some people to drink alcohol or smoke tobacco, which is incorrect.

Anyways, we will go off-topic if we start discussing this in great details.

Is there any evidence from Gurbani, with which you can prove that Waheguru jee wants people to shave their heads?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[angy15]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Rehatvaan Gurmukhs

Are Amritdhari Sikhs only Rehatvaan Gurmukhs?

 

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) clearly gave leadership duties of the Panth to the Panj Pyare.

O.k Agreed, so SGPC were right when Bhai Ghulam Mohammad Chand was denied to perform Kirtan ?

[angy15]

 

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

hat is correct, but that does not mean that the leadership/management of Sikh organizations can also be given to anyone and anybody

Agreed Managing gurudwaras you need to have some rehat but can you deny a true seeker,or devotee specially from performing a kirtan just beacuse he has not taken amrit.

[paapiman]

33 minutes ago, angy15 said:

O.k Agreed, so SGPC were right when Bhai Ghulam Mohammad Chand was denied to perform Kirtan ?

SGPC was wrong in barring Bhai Ghulam jee from doing kirtan, as he was a Sehajdhari Sikh. He had no obligation to partake Khande da amrit.

The confusion in this matter is the definition of a Sehajdhari Sikh.

Here is a topic addressing that concern.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[angy15]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Is there any evidence from Gurbani, with which you can prove that Waheguru jee wants people to shave their heads?

Gurbani   guides us  how to turn inwards.Inward step can be taken only by an individual .its concerns only with  you .Thats why Guru Granth Sahib  is beyond a set of beliefs.It is upto the individual how he wants to take the steps.

[BhagatSingh]

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

Everything happens under his watch. But that does not mean that God wants people to perform bad deeds.

That's exactly what it means. The Supreme Watcher is the Supreme Doer.

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

It is like saying that Waheguru jee wants some people to drink alcohol or smoke tobacco, which is incorrect.

Yes he does. That's why they do it.

Believe it or not everyone here is doing exactly what God wants. You are replying exactly how God wants, and I am replying exactly as God wants, etc etc.

The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better.

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ॥

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥੩॥

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੀਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਾਨੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੪॥੬੬॥੧੩੫॥

[angy15]

On 5/1/2018 at 7:30 AM, BhagatSingh said:

There is no mention of keeping kesh in Guru Granth Sahib. I looked through your thread and there is none there either.

It only has multiple interpretations if your ideological disposition is so inflexible that you cannot swallow its actual meaning.

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥  
Kabir ji says when one (ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ) loves the Oneness, then the (ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ) feeling of two (the feeling of having a separate and independent sense of self) goes away.
ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ 
It does not matter (ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ) whether you keep long hair or matted hair, or whether you (ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ) shave your hair.

ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ does not mean ਘਰ ਮੁੜ ਆਇ - to return home
ਘਰਰਿ means ਰਗੜ ਕੇ and ਮੁਡਾਇ means to shave.

If you understand the nature of self, then you know hair has nothing to do with losing that sense of self and merging into Oneness.

 

ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ ਮੇਰਾ ਘਰੁ ਧੁੰਧਰਾਵਾ ॥
ਬਿਟਵਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਮਊਆ ਲਾਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Kabir ji's mother says  - these Shaven-headed Saints have ruined my house, they have caused my son to chant Ram Ram.

ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥੨॥੩॥੩੩॥
Kabir ji says - listen mother, these Shaven-headed Saints have actually helped me transcend my condition.

Well this post to an extent clarifies abt what Gurbani says abt  hair .and also  what I am trying convey is

Gurbani  is a  guide for us  to  turn inwards .It is not asking to  belief something  .Its ays if you love  GOD it doesnt matter whether you have long hair, or no hair. Which what it makes it a universal teacher.

Bhai Vir Singh defines  ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ as:

 

Satnam 

[angy15]

A sakhi from Guru Nanak life:

A Shaikh asked the Guru what religious denomination his head-dress denoted,and why he did not shave his head in orthodox fashion

The Guru Replied:

"When man hath shaved his mind he hath shaved his head

Without shaving his mind he findeth not the way.

Let him cut off his head and place it before his guru.

if he resign his own wisdom,he shall be saved by the wisdom of his guru.

To become the dust of the feet of all is to shave the head.

Such  a hermit appreciateth the words of the guru:

That is the way in which the head is shaved,O brother."

 

 

[amardeep]

Sikhi has become more homogenious in the past 100 years resulting in many heterodox Groups having left the panth over the generations. Our old discussion on why Sikhi failed to spread covers some of these Groups and dilemmas
 

 

[paapiman]

On 5/3/2018 at 2:38 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Yes he does. That's why they do it.

Believe it or not everyone here is doing exactly what God wants. You are replying exactly how God wants, and I am replying exactly as God wants, etc etc.

Daas can reply to this point of yours, but if done, we would go off-topic then. Maybe we can discuss this in a separate topic in the future.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:49 PM, paapiman said:

Daas can reply to this point of yours, but if done, we would go off-topic then. Maybe we can discuss this in a separate topic in the future.

Please do.

And include a discussion of the following shabad.