paapiman Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Charitar: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 This Charitar teaches us the importance of making sure that our financial paperwork and other legal documents are accurate. The Mughal was the payer (of the salary), but was officially made a debtor, who owed money to the thief. Going (a bit) off on a tangent, but very relevant in real life. People should always consult lawyers before engaging in any big financial/business transactions. They make sure that the other party is unable to use any legal loop hole, which can cause you grief in the future. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 I like this one. It talks of the often discussed notion from Gurbani of how one can go from high to low in no time. How social and power structures can change in the blink of an eye. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, amardeep said: I like this one. It talks of the often discussed notion from Gurbani of how one can go from high to low in no time. How social and power structures can change in the blink of an eye. ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ If he should cast an angry glance, He can transform kings into blades of grass. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, paapiman said: ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ If he should cast an angry glance, He can transform kings into blades of grass. Bhul chuk maaf Beautiful. Where/whats the word for angry in this sentence ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 14 minutes ago, amardeep said: Beautiful. Where/whats the word for angry in this sentence ? ਉਪਠੀ means ਉਲਟ (opposite). ਉਲਟ ਨਦਰਿ would refer to unacceptable/harsh glance, which could allude to angry glance, unkind glance, unmerciful glance, etc. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Going (a bit) off on a tangent, but very relevant in real life. People should always consult lawyers before engaging in any big financial/business transactions. They make sure that the other party is unable to use any legal loop hole, which can cause you grief in the future Since this tale is related to fraud, Daas will share a real life experience of my father. My father was about to buy a lease for a small business. Now, the owner had a loan against that business corporation. He did not reveal that information to my father. Now, my dad could have bought this lease without a lawyer, but luckily he did not. If he had completed this transaction (without the lawyer), that loan would have fallen on my father's head, without him having any foreknowledge about it. It is very much possible that the owner was trying to con my dad. He fleeced him in an another event for a small amount, so the suspicion could be very well justified. Therefore, it is utmost important to hire a lawyer for big financial transactions (buying real estate, lending money, preparing a will, etc). Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 May be the wise minister is trying to convey a message to Chitar Singh via the character of the Mughal in this tale. If you (Chitar Singh) go ahead with the death penalty and then later regret it, none of your subjects will have any sympathy for you. In this tale too, the people made fun of the distressed Mughal, even though he was the innocent party in this case. They (subjects) might say "why did you trust your wife over your son in the first place" (notice the similarity with this tale - "why had you taken loan from him"). They might say "how could a son (prince) rape his step mother (queen)" (notice the similarity with this tale "If you had borrowed money from some one, how could he steal from you?"). Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 26 minutes ago, paapiman said: ਉਪਠੀ means ਉਲਟ (opposite). ਉਲਟ ਨਦਰਿ would refer to unacceptable/harsh glance, which could allude to angry glance, unkind glance, unmerciful glance, etc. Bhul chuk maaf Yes I got it as opposite also. I just hate translations that describes God as angry, wrath, happy etc like some emotional figure that keeps changing mood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Another possible interpretation: The subjects might say "Why did you attack and kill Chitar Mati's father. What, then if she has exacted revenge on you now" (notice the similarity with this tale ‘Why had you taken loan from him? What, then, if he has taken your horses in lieu (of his money)". Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, paapiman said: May be the wise minister is trying to convey a message to Chitar Singh via the character of the Mughal in this tale. If you (Chitar Singh) go ahead with the death penalty and then later regret it, none of your subjects will have any sympathy for you. In this tale too, the people made fun of the distressed Mughal, even though he was the innocent party in this case. They (subjects) might say "why did you trust your wife over your son in the first place" (notice the similarity with this tale - "why had you taken loan from him"). They might say "how could a son (prince) rape his step mother (queen)" (notice the similarity with this tale "If you had borrowed money from some one, how could he steal from you?"). Bhul chuk maaf Good observation of likeness 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, paapiman said: Another possible interpretation: The subjects might say "Why did you attack and kill Chitar Mati's father. What, then if she has exacted revenge on you now" (notice the similarity with this tale ‘Why had you taken loan from him? What, then, if he has taken your horses in lieu (of his money)". Bhul chuk maaf The above can possibly happen after the death penalty is handed to the prince. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, paapiman said: Since this tale is related to fraud, Daas will share a real life experience of my father. I will share a real experience of a close relative. She was friends with a woman, who asked her for money. This same woman had asked me for money some time earlier but my gut instinct was that she was not trustworthy. My relative asked me for some money to lend her, but I knew her friend could not be trusted and I refused. I told me relative don't give her any money. Howver she ended up giving her the money. Some months later my relative told me what happened. She got me involved and then I asked her (ex)friend, why aren't you returning the money ? She said "she only paid me back the money she took from me earlier." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 3:51 PM, paapiman said: his Charitar teaches us the importance of making sure that our financial paperwork and other legal documents are accurate. I thin it says make sure your house is in order. The Mohghal had no proof whereas the thief had proof. So who would the local people believe? Who was more able to provide proof? So in the minds of the locals the Moghal had no leg to stand on. When I read this I thought also of the King in the root story. How he had no proof that his son was guilty. He was looking at the Queen as the proof. But just like the thief, who had the actual proof in writing, the King had only the word of a person, who he was infatuated with. If we look at it from the Prince's side, we see it in reverse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 hours ago, chatanga1 said: But just like the thief, who had the actual proof in writing, the King had only the word of a person, who he was infatuated with. Maybe the wise minister's way of saying that you don't even have any concrete evidence against your son. At least, the thief acquired solid proof and then used it to con the Mughal. But, you are/were about to hang your son (ending a life which is much more serious that stealing) based on weak evidence. Maybe, the minister is indirectly implying that you are even worse (logically speaking) than that thief. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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