Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Bikramjit's right: laleshvari's post is really outrageous, shame on to you lalleshvari!!! Keep taking the pills 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Punjabiyat is a concept that has been foisted on Sikhs and purely Sikhs because we seem the most gullible in espousing this fake concept. No. Punjabiyat is something that has been fought for by Sikhs. As I said before the Muslim Punjabi and the Hindu Punjabi couldn't care less about Punjabiyat because they have got their share of Punjab. If that is true than Sikhs have their share also, in the Punjab state. I am not surprised that as a Hindu Punjabi you want Sikhs to blindly follow your lead because it suits the Hindus to have Sikhs hoodwinked by Punjabiyat rather than follow a political agenda which caters for Sikh aspirations. 1) I am not a Hindu, i am a Sikh. You have a problem with that i am at New Southgate in North London, i will be moving to Hertfordshire on the 20th of September. You can pay me a visit anytime and you can tell me to my face that i am not a Sikh but am a Hindu. I dont care who you are, you are a NOBODY to tell me that i am a Hindu. <Admin- Cut> Please no fightin here!!!!!. Use pm feature!! I support Sikh aspirations for justice, but not fictions of Khalistan on Punjab's soil. The democratic aspirations of 64 % of the population of Punjab. Had Sikhs been over 90% in Punjab state and the majority of those Sikhs wanted a Khalistan i would have no problem with it. What do you call West Punjab and Haryana and Himachal. You need to wake up and smell the coffee my friend. Pakistan's Punjab province is Muslims, fair enough. Haryana and Himachal are not Hindu since Sikhs, Muslims, Christians are free to worship in peace there and freely build places of worship. Your stats are virtually the same data. So how does my data differ from yours ? Excuse me, i misread "sq miles" for "sq km". My mistake. Ambala, Sirsa and Kurukshetra were always Punjabi areas under Sikh Maharajas until the British took over. The Hindu Punjabi because of his inherent hatred of the Sikhs lied in the census of 1951 and made these areas Hindi speaking. I would not be surprised if the Undian government tampered with those census results to make it look as though Ambala, Kangra, Simila etc were "Hindi" areas. Have you heard about democracy ?. If your have 51 % and they vote for you, you own that region. Why would you want a hostile minority which is only 2% less than the majority you represent? (Im talking in hypothetical terms) I thought it was more to do with Hindu Punjabis wanting to deny Punjabi language it's rightful place. That was the main reason. It was however, unopposed, even encouraged by some Sikhs who wanted the East Punjab to brake so that there would be a Sikh majority state within Undia. There was either Punjabi Suba or Maha Punjab. In the long term Punjabi Suba has probably been best for Punjabiyat and Sikhism. Doesnt mean we cant now expand Punjabi Suba to Maha Punjab. It is my choice as to what degree I identify with my religion, language and culture. I am not a descendent of ones how denied their mother language and I require no certificate from you to prove my loyalty to my region. 1) Dont try and belittle me over the internet. You dont know me or my family. I personally invite you to New Southgate, we can even meet at Gurdwara Nanak Darbar a little distance from Arons Grove station sometime before Friday so that we can clear the air of any confusion your cross eyed self has about me. 2) If you put religion before Punjabiyat then why talk of Punjab when the reality is that Punjab is multi-religious and have never belonged to exclusively to Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 alright, apparently the initiator of this thread was very serious about this. I will be honest in what I believe the problems would be. My fear, as a sikh, would be that we would end up creating a facsist regime. We would have stupid rules such as "only amritdhari's can be in parliament and so on and so on". I know this sounds far fetched but I see international headlines echoing things like "the new sikh state, caught in the dilemna, of standardizing the use of "pig iron" in all public places" etc etc (I am not making a joke, but reflecting what I think would happen). Your point is valid that having our own base would allow us to be able to do seva projects etc etc. My point of contention though is that, as a sikh, I don't see these initiatives being taken right now... how could I expect that that spirit will be there afterwards. Lets be realistic for a second, our religion isn't reaching out to our own kids, ie.. people born to sikh houses aren't all that keen on keeping the identity in tact, nor is the guru's message really being exemplified by people. Look for example at the way this topic has been mocked and defended. Look at the way the proposition I made < which was made with the intention of empowering ourselves with our current resources> was dealt with. It was valid and could have easily been employed or viewed as part of the scheme by the person who readdressed it in that long message that had everyones name in it;but instead, it was rebutted. My honest view is that whoever refuted it could have easily said "good point, that could be a part of the plan". This type of reaction would have worked towards a consensus. Going forward, I am willing to look at this with open eyes. Bring out some more reasons as to how you think this would succeed. In actuality, we have resources outside of india that can easily fund this venture. I see merit in it. I would ask the supporters of this idea some questions. 1)what would be the constitution? 2)what would be the political aim? (My honest opinion is that it isn't hindu india that needs to be exposed as much as the sikhs merit. Right now, we don't have a presence. We don't have the political unity. Hence we are not heard. People know that the golden temple was attacked, but no one cares. The atrocity is easily blanketed by the "terrorist" stigma attached to the sikhs. We could try to make india look bad, but how are we going to succeed when countries like england, U.S., and Canada have been keenly building ties with india.... we will be shouting they are bad, and we will look like seperatists who do nothing but hate or "expose". My view on how to achieve this would be this, lets not be strangers to the global world. Let us build strong ties with affluent members of the business community in other countries. Let us use our identity and success to penetrate the global market and then establish business in this country. Let us have a practical, cosmopolitan society where everyone is free. You see, I can see something of this sort occuring, only because the world is slowly moving in that direction. What I would want to see though is that type of initiative from sikhs. I think I have babbled a fair bit, but I believe there is merit in what I have said. I believe a country like this, if politically engineered by cosmopolitan, secular sikhs, would succeed. unfortunately my fear is that we would have country with people who are at each other's throats for not rehitvaan amritdhari's in control of everything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Fighter Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Could you put some light on what ISLAND have you identified for Sikhs? :twisted: There's no point, your brain wouldn't be able to comprehend the information. what is illogical is to try and create a Sikh country in Punjab and re-name it 'Sikhistan' or 'Khalistan'. I would oppose any attempt to create a Sikh country in Punjab, i may even fight against it. I hate fundamentalists from all religions and am not interested in a theocratic Sikh government ruling such an ancient and diverse place like the Punjab, which has a history dating back long before even Christianity and Buddhism. I agree but you seem to miss a major point, Sikhs do not have their slice of Punjab. Once they get it, it should be still called Punjab. They should then try and create a PU (Punjabi Union - based on EU!) This would solve all the problems until Punjabis can put religious differences aside and become one, but this will not happen until Islam in West Punjab has gone. Until then the best we can do is have a PU. By the way, true Sikhism is amazing, it is not like the BS espoused by the Khalistani fascists. True Sikhism has no fundementalism. Please PN bro, do some more homework and you will realise that Sikhism is the best and most free religion ever. 1. FYI of Lallesvari and Punjabi Nationalist' date=' please read freedom fighter's post more carefully then you wouldn't have gone off on a tangent.[/quote'] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 PN wrote: If that is true than Sikhs have their share also, in the Punjab state. Dear PN, this is patenly false, Sikhs have some weak control but they do not have sovereignty (even virtual), if they did, then 1984 would never have happend! Punjabi Hindus DO have virtual sovereignty in Haryana and HP, also Punjabi Muslims are the effective rulers of ALL Pakistan let alone merely West Punjab! Although I share your sentiments, Sikhs cannot bargain with something they do not have! (Punjab) Punjabi Hindus and Muslim can! Once Sikhs get Punjab, then your plan will work like a dream... As i said what will happen to the gurdwaras? You ur self have said sikhs don't have any power then what will prevent the non sikhs from distroying our gurdwaras, and historical places? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 this "idea" is fairly good... but lets look a lil deeper into it if a island was made which was mainly sikhs.. run by sikhs.. with sikh based law, allot of people from india would want to immigrate, but as amardeep paji said.. what would happen to the gurdwaras in india??.. soon places would fill up and it would just lead to the richest people being able to live there.. how many poeple could this island accomodate? few hundred?.. sorry to seem negative, but all those millions that we would spend on making a island for ourselfs could be much better spent on helping others in india.. skools for children whos parents cannot afford to give them an education, decent living accomodation for homeless people, langar halls, refurbishment of old gurdwaras people think more about a homeland, dont get me wrong i think it would be a great thing, but our first purpose is to do seva for others rather then for ourselfs if we could show the world wat sikhism is about, helping others the way we should do, then a homeland can be easily earned with the help of western countries 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 My fear, as a sikh, would be that we would end up creating a facsist regime. We would have stupid rules such as "only amritdhari's can be in parliament and so on and so on". I know this sounds far fetched You have made a good point. During the militancy period in Punjab it is said that there are incidents when some Khalistani sympathizers went overboard and harassed Sikh girls and boys outside colleges and schools etc for things like cutting their hair or trimming their beard, among other things. Are fanatics like this any different from the Taliban? Sikh leadership should be made-up of open-minded, tolerant and educated people. Not deceitful people interested only in their own pocket or those who want to force their narrow minded view on the World on their co-religionists. I agree but you seem to miss a major point, Sikhs do not have their slice of Punjab. Once they get it, it should be still called Punjab. They should then try and create a PU (Punjabi Union - based on EU!) This would solve all the problems until Punjabis can put religious differences aside and become one, but this will not happen until Islam in West Punjab has gone. Im not sure that Islam will ever vanish from the West Punjab since it has become so deeply rooted there, not just in a physical sense (Badshahi Mosque, Lahore etc) but also in the psyche of the Punjabi Muslims who have become among the most extreme Islamists in the World. Traditionally, Punjabi Muslims have been liberals. Much of Punjab's Muslims were converted by Sufis, although they are now mainly Sunni Muslims. It wasnt until Pakistan was created that fundamentalism has become deeply embedded in West Punjab that the Punjabi Muslims nowadays rival the Arabs in terms of fanaticism. You know that Punjabi Muslims have not just been fighting 'Jihad' in Kashmir but also in Afghanistan and apparently, even as far away as Chechenya. Inspite of this, i dont think a common cultural, linguistic and ethnic bond between the two Punjab's is impossible, but Islam vanishing from Punjab seems highly unlikely. I think Islam will vanish from Iran and Turkey before it vanishes from Punjab. Although i would love this, merging the two Punjab's as a single country is totally out of the question since there are more Muslims in the single Punjab province than there are non-Muslims in the states of Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh combined. This is good but you should (in my humble opinion bro) identify with almighty God and Sikhism first (even if it's only 1% more, you will understand as you get older) because these are eternal and the truth. I appreciate this and i also encourage other Sikh youth to put Wahe-Guru and Sikhism before their ethnicity and culture, but i myself have made my choice for now, sorry to say... Exactly, until Islam and Hinduism are around, true unity is impossible, once we get rid of these foreign "religions" we are in business, until then only PU based on EU is possible. I wouldnt call Islam or Hinduism foreign as such since Punjab was the birth place of Vedic Dharma and the Vedas texts. Islam has existed in Punjab for over a 1000 years so we cant call it foreign anymore. But, recent Hindu sects like Arya Samaj are indeed foreign and must be dealt with. Arya Samaj is not native to Punjab and is anit-Sikh, no doubt. Arya Samaj is a political organization which is using religion as a cover for its agenda. It is a pitty that Arya Samaj has seemingly become so popular among Punjabi Hindus. In what way? The Muslim League wanted the entire Punjab province to join Pakistan and they fought toot-and-nail for the whole of it right up until 1947. Had East Punjab taken the same route that Jammu-Kashmir did in 1947 and become an independent country i have no doubts that the Pakistanis would have also invaded Punjab as they did in Kashmir. True when applied to the WHOLE of Punjab but untrue when applied to modern Punjab. 64% Sikh majority is not enough to call Punjab state "Sikh". To call Punjab "Sikh" you would need over 90% majority. Agreed. Also, Sikhs should start converting as many Punjabi Hindus as possible! This would add weight to the cause. Punjabi Hindus should stop calling themselves "Hindus" because first of all that word was given to the Undians by the Arabs in a derogatory sense. It was not used as a word to describe people of a certain religion. Second of all "Hinduism" is not a religion. It is an umbrella-term for a thousand-&-one different cults and sects, some of which have no conformity or relationship with eachother. "Hinduism" was something that was invented by the British during the British Raj. Punjabis of that faith should identify their religion as Vedic Dharm, and even though Sikhism does not believe in missionary activity, i would not oppose Sikh organizations being set-up to spread Sikhism among Punjabis of Vedic faith. They do this to us, so why not do it to them? Im not talking about distorting their history, but just introduce them to real Sikhism and let them decide if they want to embrace it. Also, as Sikhs we fight for truth right? Then why do we not expose "Hinduism" for the fraud that it is? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dear Friendz, with utmost respect to "noble" views of everybody, I would like to be a part of this debate... So with your permission... Dear Freedon Fighter, you are talking in terms of IDEAL conditionz... but thingz do not generally take shape like this in reality... Just by bullying & making derogatory on otherz, we can not influence anybodyz opinion... Itz called Supression... and itz a useless phenonmenon... Do you think you are the first person who has coined this idea... somebody informed in this thread that Equador had offered to Sikhs to buy some land from them in 1985... 1. What were the facts that lead to the dropping of that Idea...? I have been watching this thread... Dear FF, just honestly tell yourself how many of the personz debating in this thread have actually changed their opinionz and shited to your perspective ? NO ONE... So whatz the logic in investing so much energy in writing such forceful and offensive replies... NOTHING !!! Why are you not ready to face any criticizm...? Remember: Any good plan is ready to be implimented only when it is baked in criticizm... time and again... ie. it is critically acclaimed... Instead of arguing un-necessarily: Let allow everybody come to have a look at the blue printz and cricially analyze it... We can not launch such a big project on our own... for that we need to think and work as a team to produce some forceful dialogue... Well !! On the face of it the plan seemz to be pretty much practical... Let me start from step number ONE ie. ============================== A. WE WILL BUY A ISLAND... ============================== But before that first of all we have to remove all the hindrances that would come in our way... Friendz!! I am not at all discouraging anybody... Just representing the facts as they come to my mind... so some of the queries may be out of sequence... kindly bear with by logic... Ok here I go... 2. How are we gonna convince the Sikhz to migrate to a remote alien Island... ? 2a. How are we gonna educate them about this... ? 3. How many of them would actually be ready to relinquish their acres of landz in villages or their pakka homes in townz and their jobz and pensionz and what not...? 4. How is this venture gonna be advertised in General Sikh Public...? 5. Dont you think as soon as we would announce our planz, extremistz groups would become active to take advantage of the situation...? They would start wielding their swords and blazing gunz... 6. Are you aware that once we declare that Sikhs have a separate Soverign Entity, the Sikhz putting up in India would become alienz in their homelandz... coz they would have got no valid visaz to visit India...? They could be prosicuted on the suspicion of Spying coz they know so much about the mainland of India and its configuration...? 6a. Dont you think that Sikhz would be put up in Jails like those Concentration Campz being considered as traitors...? 7. Once we are declared aliens, would we be able to dispose off our belongingz...? I am afraid, there would be no taker for it...? 8. Without valid Visaz how are we supposed to land on our Sikh Island... ? 9. Are you aware that most of Sikhz working in Army would be court-marshalled at first instance... ? 10. Are you aware that jobs of the working people would be gone in no time and their saving of lifetime would be confusicated...? Would Sikhz be mentally ready for all this...? 11. Are you aware that all properties of the Sikhz would be confusicated and no compensation would be given...? 12. Once we have aquired a Island... Do you think Indian Government would wait for Sikhs to complete the construction of that Island and then deport all sikhz to that Island...? 12a. Won't they throw out all the Sikhz out of Indian boundaries at first instance...? I guaurantee you that no Nation would come to rescue us in that case... coz India is now the most powerful emerging power in this New World Order and nobody can now dare to question Indiaz Authority...? 13. How much time and space it would take to complete the task of building such a Island... ? Probably a quarter to half of a millenium...? Is it worthwhile...? It is much easier for companies to make small islands as their basez coz factories dont take too much space to accommodate 500-100 people. But to accomodate millionz of Sikhz itz not easy to apprehend... This list is not at all exaustive, I will add up my queries as they come to my mind... Ok Now we move to our first Step... butofcourse only after we have removed all the above hindrances... ================================================================================================ STEP ONE A. WE WILL BUY A ISLAND... the following issues need to addressed towardz achieving the first step... ================================================================================================ 14. Can anybody tell me what are the optionz we have? I hope its not liek Alaska... ssssssso much cold... no sun for six monthz... no nightz for six monthz... I wont even pay a penny for such a land... USA bought it so that they could launch their NASA programmes without any interfarence from Russia... 15. Ok, Now what we have bought an Island... a simple question really: What would be the name of that Island... ? What about Sikherica, SikhLand, Sikistan, Sikhasia... Kindly suggest... 16. What would be status of the natives already living there for centuries...? 17. Wont they protest against this Invasion...? 18. How would we treat the agitating Natives...? 19. Would they be treated as first grade Citizenz like the rest of the Sikhz or ab-originalz... the outcastz...? 20. How would we tackle them ? There is a possibility that they may revolt againt us... Then we will definitely supress them... and hence the bloodshed... 21. Would they be treated as slaves...? 22. Would they be forced to convert into Sikhism...? 23. Does SGGS advocate forced conversionz... ? 24. What if they refuse to embrace Sikhism...? 25. Would they be put in jailz and tortured til they die or embrace Sikhism... ? 26. Then what would we do when they would lodge protests with UN against the atrocities by Sikhs (sounds wierd)? This list too is not at all exaustive, I will add up my queries as they come to my mind... My apprehension is that even the idea of making a Sikh colony in a Island would spell doom for native Sikhs living in India... And ofcourse Steel Bangle said... "people think more about a homeland, dont get me wrong i think it would be a great thing, but our first purpose is to do seva for others rather then for ourselfs" I would ofcourse continue... Regardz 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh It is just me or are there people on this thread who are making comments without reading the proposal set out by Freedom Fighter ? Ideal Singh Have you actually read the thread before putting up your comments ?. The proposal is for an island or some land to be bought by Sikhs abroad which will serve to give the Sikhs some sovereignity over their affairs. As far as I am aware FF is not proposing that ALL Sikhs migrate to this island thus leaving Punjab devoid of Sikhs. So your comment about India putting Sikhs in concentration camp smacks of a lack of understanding of this proposal. Punjabi Nationalist I am not a Hindu, i am a Sikh. You have a problem with that i am at New Southgate in North London, i will be moving to Hertfordshire on the 20th of September. You can pay me a visit anytime and you can tell me to my face that i am not a Sikh but am a Hindu. I dont care who you are, you are a NOBODY to tell me that i am a Hindu. Earlier you wrote My immediate family (parents) are not Sikhs, but my Papa's family (I assume from both parents) is mixed Sikh/Hindu ancestry, i have second cousins and distant relations who are 'Singhs'. I cant explain it without looking at my family tree. Anyway, i consider myself to be a Sikh but i have not "converted" or taken amrit, i have simply embraced Sikhism and that is good enough for me. I have no plans on taking amrit because quite honestly, i identify with Punjabiyat rather than with Sikhism. Sikhi is not a cut and paste religion to which any tom dick and harry can claim to belong. You wrote quite honestly, i identify with Punjabiyat rather than with Sikhism, still claiming to be a Sikh ? Research Sikhi before you put such gibberish on this forum. As for meeting me I have sent you a PM in this regard I would not be surprised if the Undian government tampered with those census results to make it look as though Ambala, Kangra, Simila etc were "Hindi" areas. I would blame the India govt for many things but give them their due. Nehru publically criticised the Punjabi Hindus for disowning Punjabi in the 1961 census. Perhaps you should try get some knowledge on the things that you want to discuss rather than coming up with your own version of events. Your strategy seems to be to absolve the Punjabi Hindus of their responsibility of allowing the Haryana and himachal Hindus to take over huge wedges of Punjabi speaking territory and blame the Indian government instead. To be blunt the Punjabi Hindus have become minorities in the three states carved out of Punjab. In Haryana they are dominated by the Hindi speaking Haryanvis, in Himachal by the Hindus of the Hills and in Punjab by the Sikhs. Their monumental mistake of not siding with the Sikhs and having a true 'Punjabi' state which would probably have had 50-50 Sikh and Hindu population has made them people without a state. In suits the purpose of the Punjabi Hindus to have Sikhs chasing after Punjabiyat because it allows the 34 % Hindus to get some ministerialships in the Punjab govt. The Punjabiyat experiment was tried by Badal in 1997 and all that happened was a 'Sikh' government with Hindu ministers telling Sikhs that they were Hindus. The death knell of Punjabiyat was sounded when the congress came to power last year. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Read my post more deligently Mr. Bikz before you jump to any conclusionz about my knowledge on this topic... As soon we declare a Soverign Sikh State, We would be aliens in India... and thrown out of india... Be far sighted while making you judgements of this stature... Read my post more deligently... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Huh ??? :shock: :? I don't get you. Here's a recap. Sikhs buy an island say off the coast of South America. They declare this island a sovereign Sikh state. According to you India will then start rounding up Sikhs as aliens and put them into concentration camps ?? Can anyone else explain to be why these two things are linked ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Sikhi is not a cut and paste religion to which any tom dick and harry can claim to belong. You wrote quite honestly, i identify with Punjabiyat rather than with Sikhism, still claiming to be a Sikh ? Research Sikhi before you put such gibberish on this forum. I choose to keep my religious beliefs private, or personal to myself. As far as religion goes i am comfortable keeping it to myself and do not feel the need to use it as an identity. Being part of a collective identity i feel more strongly attached to my ethnic and cultural roots. This might be different had i been born a Sikh. There is no "claim" of being a Sikh. You either are or you're not. There is one authority on Sikhism and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib. As for meeting me I have sent you a PM in this regard And it went no where. Spare me from your false set and petty pride problems. Also refrain from making personal comments against other people who you have no knowledge about, unless you are looking to make enemies which you shall make. I would blame the India govt for many things but give them their due. Nehru publically criticised the Punjabi Hindus for disowning Punjabi in the 1961 census. Nehru also made comments about Sikhs and Hindus coming from Pakistan as "pouring into New Delhi". Your strategy seems to be to absolve the Punjabi Hindus of their responsibility of allowing the Haryana and himachal Hindus to take over huge wedges of Punjabi speaking territory and blame the Indian government instead. Not at all. I also blame those Punjabi Hindus who betrayed their language, culture, and the Sikhs in favor of foreign Hindi culture and fictional pan-Hindu identity. There are sections of the Punjabi Hindu community who even today support the anti-Punjabi propaganda and promote hateful lies likes "Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi" and Gurmuki is a "Sikh language". I am not taking any of the blame away from them. But then again, i dont lump all Punjabi Hindus as anti-Sikh/Punjabi, which they are not. To be blunt the Punjabi Hindus have become minorities in the three states carved out of Punjab. In Haryana they are dominated by the Hindi speaking Haryanvis, in Himachal by the Hindus of the Hills and in Punjab by the Sikhs. There is no distinction between Punjabi speaking Hindus and Hindi speaking Hindus in Haryana and Himachal. Haryana never existed until 1966, it has always been Punjab. Himachal also never existed and has always been under the Punjabi cultural sphere. The only difference in Himachal is that there is also a Pahari influence in some districts and in Haryana Braj is spoken by some of the people. The people of both states are still Punjabis by race. (Minus migrant Hindians and Paharis) Their monumental mistake of not siding with the Sikhs and having a true 'Punjabi' state which would probably have had 50-50 Sikh and Hindu population has made them people without a state. This is the twisted thinking i cant get my head around. There is no such thing as "Hindu Punjab" or "Sikh Punjab". These divisions are created and promoted by liars and anti-Punjabi elements. You think that the majority of Punjabis have a split mentality like this? In suits the purpose of the Punjabi Hindus to have Sikhs chasing after Punjabiyat because it allows the 34 % Hindus to get some ministerialships in the Punjab govt. Not really. Why would there be a problem in having a Punjabi Hindu or Christian or Buddhist in government? I dont buy this hidden agenda. Punjabiyat and religion and two entirely different things and should be separated. It is in the best interests of all Punjabis, regardless of faith, to express solidarity with eachother as far as common language, culture, kinship, history etc goes. Sikh issues do not need to revolve around the running of the state. Why would you want to put a more political emphasis on Sikhism in place of spirituality and faith? Which is what Sikhism is before anything else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 IDEAL Singh, do you actually live in Punjab or are you joking? If you live in Punjab, please tell us your views on Punjabiyat and the current relationship between the different religious groups of Punjab. Thanks, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 I don't get you. Here's a recap. Sikhs buy an island say off the coast of South America. They declare this island a sovereign Sikh state. According to you India will then start rounding up Sikhs as aliens and put them into concentration camps ?? Can anyone else explain to be why these two things are linked ? Dear, Can you explain why & how these two thingz are not co-related... :roll: I am sure you know that an Alien is person who is not of origin of a country he is living... not from outer space !! Soevery person of Indian origin living outside India is a Alien... I think you are mistaking concentration campz for Jewish Concentration Campz... I am talkng about 1984 seige on Sikhz in & around Punjab... when the Sant 'B' declared Punjab a separate soverign state... Have we forgotten that in 20 yrz...? Just dont pickup a single line from the whole post... If you can refute all first '13' questionz only then I would consider about the possibility of a Separate Soverign State... Oopz a Colony. Are we not discussing about the praciticaliblity of the whole idea or just building castles in thin Air... ? In simple termz my question is: How would Indiaz take that Soverign State ? And How would this state be known to the whole world... As a country or what ? You would say that we damn care what the Indianz think about it... But it matterz to Sikhz putting up in India, who would have to face the wrath of the insult that would be metted to Indianz, in case, we declare a separate soverign state... may that be even somewhere in South America or Marz... Please enlighten me, Sir !!! Humbly 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 IDEAL Singh, do you actually live in Punjab or are you joking? If you live in Punjab, please tell us your views on Punjabiyat and the current relationship between the different religious groups of Punjab. Thanks, What makez you think these lines? :roll: I am no scholor on Punjabiyat except for that, with Godz grace, I can read and write Gurumukhi and trying to understand it... about the Rest I am least bothered... Regardz 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 PN wrote I choose to keep my religious beliefs private, or personal to myself. As far as religion goes i am comfortable keeping it to myself and do not feel the need to use it as an identity. You are the one who brought your religion into the debate and volunteered information about your background. Now it suddenly becomes private and personal when it is pointed out that you cannot claim to a Sikh in one part of the debate yet state that you identify more with Punjabiyat than Sikhism. Being part of a collective identity i feel more strongly attached to my ethnic and cultural roots. This might be different had i been born a Sikh. There is no "claim" of being a Sikh. You either are or you're not. There is one authority on Sikhism and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Another ignorant comment from someone who wants to cut and paste his 'sikhi'. You could qualify to being a Sehajdhari rather than a Sikh but since Sehajdharis are technically on the path to Sikhi and you have clearly stated that a parochial concept is more important than Sikhi to you then you probably don't qualify as a Sehajdhari either. And it went no where. Spare me from your false set and petty pride problems. Also refrain from making personal comments against other people who you have no knowledge about, unless you are looking to make enemies which you shall make. Well you know what occurred by PM. I still await the required details Nehru also made comments about Sikhs and Hindus coming from Pakistan as "pouring into New Delhi". Please refrain from coming up with arguments that go at a tangent to that which is being debated. You accused the GOI of trying to falsify census returns for the language and I pointed out that Nehru had actually criticised the Punjabi Hindus for giving Hindi as their mother tongue. Your comment does not add to the argument. Not at all. I also blame those Punjabi Hindus who betrayed their language, culture, and the Sikhs in favor of foreign Hindi culture and fictional pan-Hindu identity. There are sections of the Punjabi Hindu community who even today support the anti-Punjabi propaganda and promote hateful lies likes "Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi" and Gurmuki is a "Sikh language". I am not taking any of the blame away from them. But then again, i dont lump all Punjabi Hindus as anti-Sikh/Punjabi, which they are not. Well at least you have modified your argument. Initially it was the GOI's fault and then it was Sikhs who knew they would gain a Sikh majority state. There is no distinction between Punjabi speaking Hindus and Hindi speaking Hindus in Haryana and Himachal. Haryana never existed until 1966, it has always been Punjab. Himachal also never existed and has always been under the Punjabi cultural sphere. The only difference in Himachal is that there is also a Pahari influence in some districts and in Haryana Braj is spoken by some of the people. The people of both states are still Punjabis by race. (Minus migrant Hindians and Paharis) The Haryanvi Hindu is distinct from the Punjabi. History lesson. The southern parts of Haryana were never a part of Punjab and were only added to Punjab in 1857 after the mutiny. The true Haryanvi is more like the people of Meerut-Saharanpur than the Punjabis. The Punjabi speaking area of Haryana was a part of Punjab under Sikh rulers until the British took over. Present Jind district of Haryana was a part of Patiala state and the city and surroundings was a Sikh state. Punjabi was dominant in all the northern districts of Haryana before 1947. The Punjabi Hindus lied and now they live under the Haryanvi Hindus. It is foolish to state that Haryanvis are Punjabis, their language depending on which part of Haryana they are from is either Baagri or Hindi. This is the twisted thinking i cant get my head around. There is no such thing as "Hindu Punjab" or "Sikh Punjab". These divisions are created and promoted by liars and anti-Punjabi elements. Unfortunately you cannot understand the ground realities that the Muslim. the Sikh and Hindu Punjabi identifies with their religion more than their Punjabiyat. Just because you are the opposite doesn't make them wrong and you right. Not really. Why would there be a problem in having a Punjabi Hindu or Christian or Buddhist in government? Because the whole mentality is such that they will promote their own religion. What happened with Badal under the false Punjabiyat slogan chose to allow BJP Hindus into the Punjab govt. One of these Hindu ministers Laxmi Kanta even sat throughout the Ardas during a Sikh religious function. If she does not respect the Ardas that is her choice but then don't turn up at Sikh religious functions when you don't respect the Ardas. Sikh issues do not need to revolve around the running of the state. Why would you want to put a more political emphasis on Sikhism in place of spirituality and faith? Which is what Sikhism is before anything else. Try looking up the concept of Meeri-Peeri and then discuss Sikhism and politics on this forum GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 piri-miri does not necesseraly imply a nation-state. what about the idea of an international state within the state then: much more effective!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 piri-miri does not necesseraly imply a nation-state. what about the idea of an international state within the state then: much more effective!!!! How can you have an international state 'within' the state. The whole concept of an international state means that it transcends the boundries of various states. But I do get what you mean. I assume you are suggesting a council of Sikhs representing Sikhs within their respective countries ?. This is not what Meeri-Peeri means. Meeri is the political power and political power that is exercised through the power of statehood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 are you sure that's what meeri is? are you sure it's not just political power, or politcal strength? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 are you sure that's what meeri is? are you sure it's not just political power, or politcal strength? Meeri means supreme political power. In the context of when the term came into Sikhi, political power meant the power to rule, to levy taxes, to take part in military campaigns and generally be free from the overlordship of others. Political power cannot be divorced from statehood. The creation of Meeri-Peeri by Guru Hargobind was the precursor to Sikh statehood. There is a story that one day Guru Hargobind and his Sikhs were out hunting with their hawks when they managed to capture the Emperor's hawk. The Emperor's party when over to get the hawk and the Sikhs did not part with it and it is said that the Sikhs reply to the Emperor's party was than just as they had seized the hawk they would also take political power. They said that they had the Baaj ( Hawk ) of the emperor and soon they would also take the Taaj ( crown ) as well. In fact a battle was fought purely because the Sikhs refused to hand over the hawk. It was also around this time that the Sikhs started to refer to the Guru as 'Sacha Patishah' or true emperor. This is an overtly political term implying that the Guru was the true emperor in religious as well as political matters. The Guru also maintained an army. In those days the only personages who could have an army would have been the governors of the Subas and Rajas or Nobles who had sworn loyalty to the Emperor as well as agreed on the number of soldiers to be supplied in any campaign. The Guru did not swear loyalty or ever supply men for the Emperor's campaigns. In this context Meeri means 'supreme' political power. In the present if a Sikh party controls the Punjab government like the Akalis did until recently then they did not technically have Meeri. Since some of the their political decisions had to vetted and approved by the GOI. Meeri only comes through statehood since any other type of political power is subject to the patronage of others. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Fighter Posted September 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 As i said what will happen to the gurdwaras? Which Gurdwaras? The ones in Punjab will be looked after by the Punjabi Sikhs as they are today. this "idea" is fairly good... but lets look a lil deeper into it if a island was made which was mainly sikhs.. run by sikhs.. with sikh based law, allot of people from india would want to immigrate, but as amardeep paji said.. what would happen to the gurdwaras in india??.. Bro, this new country will only be aboe to accomodate a maximum of around 1-2 million Sikhs as well as the maybe 500,000 natives (Russians)... As for the other 20 million+ Sikhs in "Indian" Punjab, they will ALL get DUAL NATIONALITY, a free "Sikhland" passport! So that in the event of trouble, they can freely leave "India" and go to another country where they will be safe. Because "Sikhland" will have excellent relations with EU and USA, hopefully Sikhs with a "Sikhland" passport can travel to these countries where they will be safe. Dear Friendz, with utmost respect to "noble" views of everybody, I would like to be a part of this debate... So with your permission... Dear Freedon Fighter, you are talking in terms of IDEAL conditionz... but thingz do not generally take shape like this in reality... Well, they will go well because we will plan properly before we commence on this great project. Just by bullying & making derogatory on otherz, we can not influence anybodyz opinion... Itz called Supression... and itz a useless phenonmenon... Do you think you are the first person who has coined this idea... somebody informed in this thread that Equador had offered to Sikhs to buy some land from them in 1985... Errr, yeah, I think that was, errr, me! :roll: 1. What were the facts that lead to the dropping of that Idea...? I am not sure, I will find out, I will also see if we can revive the offer from Ecuador! I have been watching this thread... Dear FF, just honestly tell yourself how many of the personz debating in this thread have actually changed their opinionz and shited to your perspective ? NO ONE... Considering the fact that there have been several people who actually think the idea is plausible leads me to the conclusion that either you are very slow or have not read my posts with due care and attention, I will favourably conclude that it is indeed the latter! So whatz the logic in investing so much energy in writing such forceful and offensive replies... NOTHING !!! Where have I conucted such an excersise? Please highlight this! Why are you not ready to face any criticizm...? Remember: Any good plan is ready to be implimented only when it is baked in criticizm... time and again... ie. it is critically acclaimed... Instead of arguing un-necessarily: Let allow everybody come to have a look at the blue printz and cricially analyze it... Again more advice lacking substance, you clearly have not been reading my posts. We can not launch such a big project on our own... for that we need to think and work as a team to produce some forceful dialogue... In several posts I have highlighted the need for such a structure, yet you continue to state the obvious! :roll: Well !! On the face of it the plan seemz to be pretty much practical... A tad contradictory my friend, please refer to you prior counter productive sttaements. Let me start from step number ONE ie. Thank God, about bloody time. ============================== A. WE WILL BUY A ISLAND... ============================== But before that first of all we have to remove all the hindrances that would come in our way... Friendz!! I am not at all discouraging anybody... Just representing the facts Facts? Please explain how something can be declared as a fact (a statement of truth) when one has no clue as to what he is talking about, as I shall demonstrate in the following. as they come to my mind... so some of the queries may be out of sequence... kindly bear with by logic... Ok here I go... 2. How are we gonna convince the Sikhz to migrate to a remote alien Island... ? Considering that Sikhs are the number ONE illegal immigrants from "India" it should not be so hard as to convince them to come to a modern country designed exclusively for them! A country where they are the MASTERS and not the SLAVES! Where there rights, religion, culture, language, family will be cared for and protected! 2a. How are we gonna educate them about this... ? Errr, like everyone else does in business, ADVERTISING! 3. How many of them would actually be ready to relinquish their acres of landz in villages or their pakka homes in townz and their jobz and pensionz and what not...? Many thousands will SELL up and move to "Sikhland", like the Jews did in "India" when they moved to Israel in the 1950's. We know this from the huge numbers of illegal Sikh immigrants entering the EU, Canada, Australia, the USA etc. They would love to come to a country based on European standards and European standard of life! 4. How is this venture gonna be advertised in General Sikh Public...? TV, Radio, Internet, Newspapers, Magazines etc.! 5. Dont you think as soon as we would announce our planz, extremistz groups would become active to take advantage of the situation...? They will be BARRED from "Sikhland" unless they renounce their extremeist views. ALL applicants will be screened thoroughly before being given citizenship. All their records, medical, police, and others will be fully checked. They would start wielding their swords and blazing gunz... Not in "Sikhland" they won't as they will not be allowed in! 6. Are you aware that once we declare that Sikhs have a separate Soverign Entity, the Sikhz putting up in India would become alienz in their homelandz... LOL! what? Where did you come up with this nonsense from? This is utter garbage. "Sikhland" will be set up by Western Sikhs not "Indian" Sikhs! The "Indian" gov. cannot blame Punjabi Sikhs for anything as they will have nothing to do with it. coz they would have got no valid visaz to visit India...? They could be prosicuted on the suspicion of Spying coz they know so much about the mainland of India and its configuration...? Errr, all Sikhs who do not have an "Indian" passport are considered aliens, thus it won't make any difference at all. I don't see your point. 6a. Dont you think that Sikhz would be put up in Jails like those Concentration Campz being considered as traitors...? Which Sikhs? How can Western Sikhs be put in "Indian" jails? 7. Once we are declared aliens, would we be able to dispose off our belongingz...? I am afraid, there would be no taker for it...? You are confusing issues here. Sikhs in "India" cannot be touched as they have done nothing. Western Sikhs are already aliens anyway, thus their actions have NO implications for Sikhs in "Indian" occupied Punjab. 8. Without valid Visaz how are we supposed to land on our Sikh Island... ? Please use some common sense, "India" cannot stop ANY citizen from leaving the country. Once some Sikhs are out of "India" they may apply for "Sikhland" citizenship and then have dual nationality, one "Indian" and one "Sikhand". They may also come and live in "Sikhland". 9. Are you aware that most of Sikhz working in Army would be court-marshalled at first instance... ? Actually you are wrong, they wouldn't! Please refer to the prior posts for more info. 10. Are you aware that jobs of the working people would be gone in no time and their saving of lifetime would be confusicated...? Would Sikhz be mentally ready for all this...? Nothing can be confiscated, you are living in a dream world. On what gorunds can anything be confiscated. 11. Are you aware that all properties of the Sikhz would be confusicated and no compensation would be given...? By whom? For what reason? Do you thinks Sikhs will just sit there and do nothing? :roll: 12. Once we have aquired a Island... Do you think Indian Government would wait for Sikhs to complete the construction of that Island and then deport all sikhz to that Island...? What do you mean "Indian" gov.? They have NOTHING to do with it, it is none of their business! What alien Western Sikhs do is their business and their business alone. I don't think you understand international law my friend. Most of what you have said amounts to persecution and ethnic cleansing, these are serious crimes under internation law, most countries would be seriously pissed off at such blatent human rights abuses. 12a. Won't they throw out all the Sikhz out of Indian boundaries at first instance...? Firstly you are wrong, and secondly can you ever imagine Sikhs being thrown out of their own motherland Punjab? Do you think that they will just lie down and give up? There will be all out civil war my friend and the Sikhs will not be the only ones, the 20 million Christians and 120 million Muslims will also rebel. "India" would be in chaos and break in to many many pieces. Sikhs will cease Punjab and declare independence! I guaurantee you that no Nation would come to rescue us in that case... coz India is now the most powerful emerging power in this New World Order and nobody can now dare to question Indiaz Authority...? LOL! What utter crap! "India" is a low life 3rd world sh*t hole, FYI, China is the most powerful emerging nation, it is less than 20 years away from FIRST WORLD SUPERPOWER STATUS! China could destroy "India" in a week if it wanted to. Also, the invading Chinese army would be supported by 200 million Sikhs, Muslims, Christians and other anti-"India" forces. 13. How much time and space it would take to complete the task of building such a Island... ? Probably a quarter to half of a millenium...? Is it worthwhile...? Errr, last time I checked it was around 10-15 years! It is much easier for companies to make small islands as their basez coz factories dont take too much space to accommodate 500-100 people. But to accomodate millionz of Sikhz itz not easy to apprehend... What? You don't seem to understand, "Sikhland" will be a FINANCIAL CENTER not an industrial one, we will have no factories, only service industries which hardly need any space... This list is not at all exaustive, I will add up my queries as they come to my mind... Ok Now we move to our first Step... butofcourse only after we have removed all the above hindrances... ================================================================================================ STEP ONE A. WE WILL BUY A ISLAND... the following issues need to addressed towardz achieving the first step... ================================================================================================ 14. Can anybody tell me what are the optionz we have? I hope its not liek Alaska... ssssssso much cold... no sun for six monthz... no nightz for six monthz... I wont even pay a penny for such a land... USA bought it so that they could launch their NASA programmes without any interfarence from Russia... There are many locations from a cool climate in Russia, to an exotic Island or two in the Carribean, maybe a few Islands in the pacific and Indonesia or land in South or Central America! We will go for the best deal available. Maybe we will build our own artificial one near UK, USA etc. Here's an example of one near Japan: Japan's Osaka airport, built in the Sea of Japan! 15. Ok, Now what we have bought an Island... a simple question really: What would be the name of that Island... ? What about Sikherica, SikhLand, Sikistan, Sikhasia... Kindly suggest... Republic of Sikhland 16. What would be status of the natives already living there for centuries...? Automatic citizens with full rights. 17. Wont they protest against this Invasion...? No, it will inolve their consent and they will be paid since it is their land we will be buying, also they will have dual nationality, Russian? and "Sikhland"... They can stay or leave, it is their choice. 18. How would we treat the agitating Natives...? Very well, they will be full citizens. 19. Would they be treated as first grade Citizenz like the rest of the Sikhz or ab-originalz... the outcastz...? How many times u wanna ask the same questions? please refer above. 20. How would we tackle them ? There is a possibility that they may revolt againt us... Then we will definitely supress them... and hence the bloodshed... Errr, no, because THEY are the one's who want to sell the land. Remember, they are not selling the whole country, just a small part of it, which will make them very rich! 21. Would they be treated as slaves...? Jesus Christ, no! Why are u asking the same questions over again? 22. Would they be forced to convert into Sikhism...? No. Natives will have the right to practice their religion/culture freely, only new immigrants must convert to Sikhism. Why ask this again? I already said this in my first post! 23. Does SGGS advocate forced conversionz... ? NO! 24. What if they refuse to embrace Sikhism...? N/A (Not Applicable, incase you didn't know what that mean't) 25. Would they be put in jailz and tortured til they die or embrace Sikhism... ? N/A 26. Then what would we do when they would lodge protests with UN against the atrocities by Sikhs (sounds wierd)? N/A This list too is not at all exaustive, I will add up my queries as they come to my mind... Fine, just don't repeat things 3000 times! My apprehension is that even the idea of making a Sikh colony in a Island would spell doom for native Sikhs living in India... Based on what? There is NO connection! :roll: And ofcourse Steel Bangle said... "people think more about a homeland, dont get me wrong i think it would be a great thing, but our first purpose is to do seva for others rather then for ourselfs" Errr, yeah, and so we will get our homeland and then serve our people, where's the problem? I would ofcourse continue... Regardz I look forward to it! :roll: P.S. PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND MY POSTS PROPERLY BEFORE REPLYING! THANKS... Also I agree with PN, we should expose "Hinduism" for the evil ideology that it really is! Thanks, FF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 hahahaha FF nice post - u obviously have put quiet allot of thought into this... but where would u start to set the ball rolling? put me down for a plot 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Well Well Well... Dear All, I duly acknowledge your concern and dedication on this topic. And dont worry about my knowledge on this subject. I had posted my reply late on this topic coz I was reading the whole discussion thouroughly and doing some research which is reproduced in the end... Dear FF... How can you be so sure about your planz, when you have miserably failed to respond to even my every first simple query and subsequently to next 12 queries... Rolling your eyez wont provide the answers !!! My first question was: 1. What were the facts that lead to the dropping of that Ecquador Idea...? My question still standz tall... Let the everybody know why it was dropped? Do some research !! Or should I do it for you? Considering the fact that there have been several people who actually think the idea is plausible leads me to the conclusion that either you are very slow or have not read my posts with due care and attention, I will favourably conclude that it is indeed the latter! I am, no doubt, very slow... but I have a very important quality is missing in all your postz and that is: I think before I write and you dont think even after you have written and posted... I have read all your posts and your commentz in support of the cause... ironically the fact of the matter is that all of your postz are based of pure assumptions and rendered useless until you consider my first 13 queries... What Amrican Sikh or French Sikhz crap you are booasting off...? My dear friend!! All these Sikhz have their rootz firmly fixed in India by some way or the other... All have migrated from India for greener pastures but their heart and families still live in India... Do you think they are going to endanger their lives for a placid piece of land. Why do you people cant think in the borader perspective... ? I wonder... Freedom Fighter... you act very clumsily when you say that you wont allow entry to Extremists into Sikhland... What does that mean...? that meanz you are acting as a separate nation with your own army and weaponz and in frustration the Indianz would target the Sikh people living in india... I am shocked that you people can not relate the two thingz... Facts? Please explain how something can be declared as a fact (a statement of truth) when one has no clue as to what he is talking about, as I shall demonstrate in the following. Rather, you yourself have miserably failed to demonstrate anything constructive... to me atleast... The fact that you can not find any co-relation with Sikhs living in India and those living abroad, makez me wonder what are you demonstrating... Let me describe whether you are demonstrating or purely Assumping... Let me enumerate step by step... 1. Considering that Sikhs are the number ONE illegal immigrants from "India" it should not be so hard as to convince them to come to a modern country designed exclusively for them! A country where they are the MASTERS and not the SLAVES! Where there rights, religion, culture, language, family will be cared for and protected! Purely a Assumption (# 1) Be specific... 2a. How are we gonna educate them about this... ? Errr, like everyone else does in business, ADVERTISING! ASSUMPTION (# 2) Are we talking about business !!! This is no business... Do you assume Channels gonna advertise this...? No printing press is gonna print any such materalz... no one is going to circulate this stuff...? Who will do it... Be specific... 3. How many of them would actually be ready to relinquish their acres of landz in villages or their pakka homes in townz and their jobz and pensionz and what not...? --->>Many thousands will SELL up and move to "Sikhland", like the Jews did in "India" when they moved to Israel in the 1950's. We know this from the huge numbers of illegal Sikh immigrants entering the EU, Canada, Australia, the USA etc. They would love to come to a country based on European standards and European standard of life! ASSUMPTION (# 3) What Europeon standardz and Europeon standard of life you are talking about? Be specfic... 4. How is this venture gonna be advertised in General Sikh Public...? --->>TV, Radio, Internet, Newspapers, Magazines etc.! ASSUMPTION (# 4) Who is going to allow you to propogate such stuff on these mediaz... Who is gonna print such magazinez & newspaperz... & who is going to allow such printing of material ? First confirm the resources then come up such assumptionz. Be Specific... 5. Dont you think as soon as we would announce our planz, extremistz groups would become active to take advantage of the situation...? --->>They will be BARRED from "Sikhland" unless they renounce their extremeist views. ALL applicants will be screened thoroughly before being given citizenship. All their records, medical, police, and others will be fully checked. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 5). Wrong judgement. I am talking about Sikhz residing in India and Extremistz groups in India. How are you going to screen them. Be specific... How are you going to check up their records with... Who is going to give you the recordz to check up their history... their bakcground... Be specific about the resources... 6. Are you aware that once we declare that Sikhs have a separate Soverign Entity, the Sikhz putting up in India would become alienz in their homelandz... --->>LOL! what? Where did you come up with this nonsense from? This is utter garbage. "Sikhland" will be set up by Western Sikhs not "Indian" Sikhs! The "Indian" gov. cannot blame Punjabi Sikhs for anything as they will have nothing to do with it. PURE ASSUMPTION (# 6): You smile is beautifull when you LOL... But How are you so sure that Indian Gov will not blame Punjabi Sikhs and how have you simply assumed that: Punjabi Sikhz have nothing to do with it. Mind you, all Western Sikh have their immediate relatives putting up in Punjab... so your assumption that they have nothing to with it is baseless and pure short-sighted. coz they would have got no valid visaz to visit India...? They could be prosicuted on the suspicion of Spying coz they know so much about the mainland of India and its configuration...? --->>Errr, all Sikhs who do not have an "Indian" passport are considered aliens, thus it won't make any difference at all. I don't see your point. Purly Short sightedness... (#7) When you would be able to realize the co-relation between the Indian Sikhz and Rest of Sikhz living abroad then all these quering would appear relevant to you... Wake up my dear friend... 6a. Dont you think that Sikhz would be put up in Jails like those Concentration Campz being considered as traitors...? --->>Which Sikhs? How can Western Sikhs be put in "Indian" jails? Purly Short sightedness... Read point 6 more deligently. 7. Once we are declared aliens, would we be able to dispose off our belongingz...? I am afraid, there would be no taker for it...? --->>their actions have NO implications for Sikhs in India. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 8) How can you be so sure... Please explain... 8. Without valid Visaz how are we supposed to land on our Sikh Island... ? --->>Please use some common sense, "India" cannot stop ANY citizen from leaving the country. Once some Sikhs are out of "India" they may apply for "Sikhland" citizenship and then have dual nationality, one "Indian" and one "Sikhand". They may also come and live in "Sikhland". Pure ASSUMPTION (# 9) Who is going to stop Indian from not allowing Sikhz to do it? Be specific... Which International Law you are referring too... 9. Are you aware that jobs of the working people would be gone in no time and their saving of lifetime would be confusicated...? Would Sikhz be mentally ready for all this...? --->>Nothing can be confiscated, you are living in a dream world. On what gronds can anything be confiscated. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 10) How can you claim it? Plz Elaborate... Dont just refute everything !! 10. Are you aware that all properties of the Sikhz would be confusicated and no compensation would be given...? --->>By whom? For what reason? Do you thinks Sikhs will just sit there and do nothing? Purly Short Sightedness... (# 11) You can not act like a Ostrich who hids his mounth in sand and thinks everything is fine. What can the Sikhz do when they would only see all the gunz blazing towardz them...? Nothing but sitting ducks... 11. Once we have aquired a Island... Do you think Indian Government would wait for Sikhs to complete the construction of that Island and then deport all sikhz to that Island...? --->>What do you mean "Indian" gov.? They have NOTHING to do with it, it is none of their business! What alien Western Sikhs do is their business and their business alone. I don't think you understand international law my friend. Most of what you have said amounts to persecution and ethnic cleansing, these are serious crimes under internation law, most countries would be seriously pissed off at such blatent human rights abuses. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 12) Which countries would be pissed off at such human rights violations... Be specific... Before any country could react, misery would be complete on the Sikhz... No country would even come to do a post-mortem. 12a. Won't they throw out all the Sikhz out of Indian boundaries at first instance...? --->>the Sikhs will not be the only ones, the 20 million Christians and 120 million Muslims will also rebel. "India" would be in chaos and break in to many many pieces. Sikhs will cease Punjab and declare independence! Pure ASSUMPTION (# 13) No body would come forward for the cause of Sikhz coz they are not benefitd from this sacrifice... What will the Chistianz and Muslimz get out of it... you forget about Godhra... Nobody would listenz to your yearningz. You mean to assume that indian govt sit and watch all this happening in front of their eyez. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 14) Sikhz will cease Punjab and declare independence. Be specific... How are they gonna do it... by consuming alchohal and dancing. Who would help them in fighting with Indian Army and provide them meanz to fight... You And Not me is in the dreamland... Wake up Dude... Wake up to reality... 13. I guaurantee you that no Nation would come to rescue us in that case... coz India is now the most powerful emerging power in this New World Order and nobody can now dare to question Indiaz Authority...? --->>LOL! What utter crap! "India" is a low life 3rd world sh*t hole, FYI, China is the most powerful emerging nation, it is less than 20 years away from FIRST WORLD SUPERPOWER STATUS! China could destroy "India" in a week if it wanted to. Also, the invading Chinese army would be supported by 200 million Sikhs, Muslims, Christians and other anti-"India" forces. Pure ASSUMPTION (# 15) By Laughing out Loud you are trying to hide your short sightedness on the whole topic. China can do nothing of India... or for that matter noone can touch Indian territory... you forget the ruthless suppression of Punjab cause and the Kashmiri people... Where were these so called Human Rightz Organisationz in 1984. No one came forward... You totally deal in assumptionz and your whole posts are based on ifz and butz... And I deal in Factz... and to support my calimz, read carefully the below given research carefully about your dream artifical Island i.e. have a look at your venture into the dreamland of Japan Osaka Airport... Here is the fact file of Japanz Osaka Kansai Airport from own website: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_International_Airport This man-made island project was proposed for a space as small as this (1 x 4 kilometers). And it took 34 yrs to build such an airport and they are already considering that as the biggest blunder in the Japanz History... How much time it would take us to build a aritifical island to support 1-2 million Sikhz you can imagine... The Airport is quickly sinking into the depthz of the ocean... Read the whole post please... Specially the last paragraph... Here it goez... In the 1960s Kansai was losing trade to Tokyo. An airport near Osaka and Kobe was needed. Osaka airport was surrounded by buildings and could not be expanded. Neighbors were angry of noise. Tokyo Narita protests showed the degree of opposition to near-city airports in Japan. Initially, the airport was planned to be built in offshore of Kobe, but the city of Kobe refused the plan. Decision to build an airport "in the sea" was made. Located in Osaka Bay it could be open 24-hours per day. Only fishermen protested but they were silenced by hefty compensations. Engineers faced the risk of earthquakes (worst in the world) and typhoons (sea surge of 3 meters). A man-made island project was proposed (1 x 4 kilometers). Construction started in 1987, the sea wall was finished in 1989 (made of rocks and 48,000 pieces of 4-pointed concrete blocks), 3 mountains were excavated for earth (21 million cubic meters of earth), 10,000 workers, 10 million workhours, 3 years, 80 ships, 30 meter layer over the sea floor (inside the sea wall), 3 km bridge built to connect the island ($1 bn, completed 1990). By 1990, the island had sunk 8 meters (far more than predicted) and the project became the most expensive blunder in human history after 20 years of planning, 3 years of construction and several billion dollars invested. 1991 - start of the terminal construction (the longest building in the world). Island sinking was solved by adjustable-length columns on which the terminal sits. 1994 - airport opened. 1995 - survived Kobe earthquake unscathed mostly due to the use of sliding joints (20 km from the epicenter of a quake that resulted in 5000 dead). Even the glass in windows stayed intact. 1998 - survived typhoon 200 km/h. 2003: Still sinking (30 cm/year) and serious countermeasures will be needed in 5-10 years. Total cost, $15 bn, 40% over budget (mostly due to sinking problems), still in debt ($560 million in annual interest). Second runway was planned but the present debt makes it impossible, esp. that the estimated cost is $30 bn (the second island would go even deeper into the sea). In the meantime, Tokyo's Narita expands and the economic value of Kansai is being undermined. Come to discussion table on this topic with concrete planz... Your knowledge on this topic lefts a lot to be desired... Well I have no time to analyse your rest of the assumtious posts... ...so waiting for your reply... and hopefully everybody would comeup with some concrete factz and figurez and not a ideological one-sided, assumptious replies... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Ideal Singh Tusin ta sirr khah liya Understand this. Sikhs buy an island.. possibly unhabited and allow any number of Sikhs from outside India to migrate there. Don't worry we won't send a snatch squad to kidnap you from your beloved India. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 why don't we have an island for men and an siland for women joined by a bridge to avoid lust :stupid: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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