Premi Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 I posted this topic on SS a few months ago, the responses from the more learned Sangat were limited. I am re-asking, and changing what I write, but would like to generate discussion based on Rehitnamas and other Itihaasik examples. What is the Sikh approach to handling crime and punishment. Other than during war where killing opponents is fair game, what is considered right/acceptable in Sikhi towards other crimes? Personally, I'm in favor of rehabilitation as far as possible, and a lot could be achieved with parchaar to correct people. But if that is not available, then many fail rehabilitation and continue to re-offend. Also, I think if keeping someone imprisoned, they should be treated humanely with basic but reasonable conditions. is hard labor a fair punishment ? Is capital punishment acceptable in cases of murder or rape ? I think it might be, but there's a risk if they are actually innocent. What about middle eastern practices like 'flogging'? What to do with less serious crimes, e.g. petty theft, low level fraud ? In countries where Sikhs have migrated to, they have been the subject of the local laws. Muslims have 'Sharia' and have pushed for it in some non-Islamic countries. How would a Sikh nation's legal system work ? How far and practical could a 'Panj Piare' be convened for deciding on outcomes of cases ? Would they decide for non-Amritdharis ? Or would we have another system ? Regarding Western legal systems, I found this https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/25059/why-12-jurors-why-not-11-10-9-1 Why 12 Jurors, why not 11, 10, 9, 1? Ask Question Asked 4 years ago Active 1 year, 2 months ago Viewed 7k times 4 The question might seem basic, but why do juries in the United States consist of 12 members? Was there an experimental determination of this number? Would the addition or removal of a juror operate more effectively? united-statesjurylegal-history Share Improve this question Follow edited Apr 25 '19 at 0:52 ventsyv 12311 silver badge77 bronze badges asked Jan 3 '18 at 10:13 Bluebird 40333 silver badges1212 bronze badges Add a comment 4 Answers ActiveOldestVotes 7 The origin of the jury is a complex mix of Saxon, Danish and Norman custom which morphed and melded along with English Common Law, which is the basis of the law in all ex-British colonies including the USA. Danish towns in the north and east of England had hereditary “law men”, often 12 in number who decided legal disputes. In parallel the West Saxons (Wessex) in the south and west charged 12 theigns in each area with keeping the peace. When the Normans conquered (who were also of Viking origin) they adopted and adapted the existing legal structures. In the 12th century, Henry II established that a jury of 12 should decide land disputes. Meanwhile other juries of various sizes were formed to investigate crimes and bring charges - this is the origin of the Grand Juries that still live on in the USA although they have been replaced by a judge in other common law jurisdictions. Ultimately the jury that brought charges and the jury that decided guilt were split and the size was standardised. However, it is incorrect to say that it is always 12: some jurisdictions have different numbers for different purposes. For example, rule 48 of the US Federal rules for civil procedure sets the number at not less than 6 and not more than 12. The jury system continues to evolve with various jurisdictions adopting different numbers, majority verdicts and judge only trials. There is nothing special or “scientific” about 12: it is what it is because it is what it is. Share Improve this answer Follow answered Jan 3 '18 at 12:16 Dale M♦ 138k1111 gold badges148148 silver badges256256 bronze badges Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – feetwet♦ Jan 4 '18 at 1:40 Worth noting that the U.S. Supreme Court just changed the law to require a jury of 12 in felony cases as a matter of constitutional law at the state level in the last year or so. Prior to that, smaller, and non-unanimous juries were allowed. Juries of less than 12 are allowed in misdemeanor and civil cases. Grand juries are required to have 23 members in many jurisdictions, and the size of a coroner's inquest jury is also not always 12. I have tried many civil cases to juries of 7. – ohwilleke Oct 30 '20 at 23:33 Add a comment 2 It isn't 12, for federal trial courts it's at least 6 and no more than 12. https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_48 For grand juries it's more https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/jury-service/types-juries. In az it's 6,8, or 12 depending on the matter being considered. https://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title21/00102.html. I can't go through all the states but it's not always 12. Share Improve this answer Follow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 8 hours ago, Premi said: I posted this topic on SS a few months ago, the responses from the more learned Sangat were limited. I am re-asking, and changing what I write, but would like to generate discussion based on Rehitnamas and other Itihaasik examples. What is the Sikh approach to handling crime and punishment. Other than during war where killing opponents is fair game, what is considered right/acceptable in Sikhi towards other crimes? Personally, I'm in favor of rehabilitation as far as possible, and a lot could be achieved with parchaar to correct people. But if that is not available, then many fail rehabilitation and continue to re-offend. Also, I think if keeping someone imprisoned, they should be treated humanely with basic but reasonable conditions. is hard labor a fair punishment ? Is capital punishment acceptable in cases of murder or rape ? I think it might be, but there's a risk if they are actually innocent. What about middle eastern practices like 'flogging'? What to do with less serious crimes, e.g. petty theft, low level fraud ? In countries where Sikhs have migrated to, they have been the subject of the local laws. Muslims have 'Sharia' and have pushed for it in some non-Islamic countries. How would a Sikh nation's legal system work ? How far and practical could a 'Panj Piare' be convened for deciding on outcomes of cases ? Would they decide for non-Amritdharis ? Or would we have another system ? Regarding Western legal systems, I found this https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/25059/why-12-jurors-why-not-11-10-9-1 Why 12 Jurors, why not 11, 10, 9, 1? Ask Question Asked 4 years ago Active 1 year, 2 months ago Viewed 7k times 4 The question might seem basic, but why do juries in the United States consist of 12 members? Was there an experimental determination of this number? Would the addition or removal of a juror operate more effectively? united-statesjurylegal-history Share Improve this question Follow edited Apr 25 '19 at 0:52 ventsyv 12311 silver badge77 bronze badges asked Jan 3 '18 at 10:13 Bluebird 40333 silver badges1212 bronze badges Add a comment 4 Answers ActiveOldestVotes 7 The origin of the jury is a complex mix of Saxon, Danish and Norman custom which morphed and melded along with English Common Law, which is the basis of the law in all ex-British colonies including the USA. Danish towns in the north and east of England had hereditary “law men”, often 12 in number who decided legal disputes. In parallel the West Saxons (Wessex) in the south and west charged 12 theigns in each area with keeping the peace. When the Normans conquered (who were also of Viking origin) they adopted and adapted the existing legal structures. In the 12th century, Henry II established that a jury of 12 should decide land disputes. Meanwhile other juries of various sizes were formed to investigate crimes and bring charges - this is the origin of the Grand Juries that still live on in the USA although they have been replaced by a judge in other common law jurisdictions. Ultimately the jury that brought charges and the jury that decided guilt were split and the size was standardised. However, it is incorrect to say that it is always 12: some jurisdictions have different numbers for different purposes. For example, rule 48 of the US Federal rules for civil procedure sets the number at not less than 6 and not more than 12. The jury system continues to evolve with various jurisdictions adopting different numbers, majority verdicts and judge only trials. There is nothing special or “scientific” about 12: it is what it is because it is what it is. Share Improve this answer Follow answered Jan 3 '18 at 12:16 Dale M 138k1111 gold badges148148 silver badges256256 bronze badges Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – feetwet Jan 4 '18 at 1:40 Worth noting that the U.S. Supreme Court just changed the law to require a jury of 12 in felony cases as a matter of constitutional law at the state level in the last year or so. Prior to that, smaller, and non-unanimous juries were allowed. Juries of less than 12 are allowed in misdemeanor and civil cases. Grand juries are required to have 23 members in many jurisdictions, and the size of a coroner's inquest jury is also not always 12. I have tried many civil cases to juries of 7. – ohwilleke Oct 30 '20 at 23:33 Add a comment 2 It isn't 12, for federal trial courts it's at least 6 and no more than 12. https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_48 For grand juries it's more https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/jury-service/types-juries. In az it's 6,8, or 12 depending on the matter being considered. https://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title21/00102.html. I can't go through all the states but it's not always 12. Share Improve this answer Follow Very intellectually complicated topic bro. Punishment for a few crimes is simple, but for many, it will probably take a plenty of time to come up with a suitable punishment. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premi Posted January 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2022 @dalsingh101 and @shastarSingh are very knowledgeable about Sikh itihaas, maybe they can give examples ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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