Mixed marriage Midlands, UK - Canceled

[Premi]

 

 

 

 

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

So when they say they are for Sikhs only...is the definition Racist ( I mean it means Punjabis?) or is it inclusive like the religion is supposed to be of all mankind, white, black, brown,  this caste, that caste, as long as they are willing to embrace Sikhi ( Sikhsm)? And if the latter reason is given what about the 70% Punjabi Sikhs who take these vows but are either actually atheist, agnostic or fake Sikhs? To me sometimes the guys that run things back in Punjab aren't the most educated even within their own religion? SO clarity is needed it? To me it just appears to smell like the Gurus said one thing, but the Indian - Punjabi Caste / Race prejudice is dominating and being conflated with the Sikhi priniciples? Surely in the long term such as policy could lead to an axe cutting our own Sikh foot off, decreasing the world's Sikh population who will then just assimilate into other cultures / other cultures won't adapt Sikhi, whilst Hindu faith, Budhist faith and other carry on expanding??? Just a thought???

[Premi]

I think it's fine if the non Sikh intends to actually become a Sikh but not if it is just for show.

Never see Muslims converting when they marry out so we should do same

And if Anand Karaj is intended with one party who is non Sikh, there should be proof of commitment that they are on the path

Maybe a compromise for non-practising Sikhs would be some verbal agreement that they will take steps to become more into Sikhi

[dalsingh101]

56 minutes ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

So when they say they are for Sikhs only...is the definition Racist ( I mean it means Punjabis?)

Not really. Afghan Sikhs are included, so it is beyond 'race'. Plus anyone who actually truly believes Panjabis are some homogenous genetic group is a moron of the highest proportion. 

 

Quote

To me it just appears to smell like the Gurus said one thing, but the Indian - Punjabi Caste / Race prejudice is dominating and being conflated with the Sikhi priniciples?

This is obviously the case. I mean one particular skirt wearing, head waggling jaat has been causing havoc in this respect for ages, but I can only think with cards in the air right now, we can't tell where we will be going in future until the cards settle down somewhat. 

 

[dalsingh101]

55 minutes ago, Premi said:

Maybe a compromise for non-practising Sikhs would be some verbal agreement that they will take steps to become more into Sikhi

This one is dodgy, I think more than that is needed. Words are easy.  

[Premi]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

This one is dodgy, I think more than that is needed. Words are easy.  

Maybe the best thing would be they attend Gurdwara every 2 weeks or something for 30 mins meetings, starting at least 3 months before Anand Karaj, to show their progression as a Sikh or progression as a non-Sikh into Sikh, They have to uphold this to be allowed to do the ceremony. One absence only permitted

BUT, I doubt Gurdware can necessarily resource this time and will not want to put barriers to income - which is a shame

"Trolling" with this one, but maybe they need to do this only if the bride is Sikh, since they almost always do not bring up kids as Sikhs/groom never converts

[dalsingh101]

18 minutes ago, Premi said:

Maybe the best thing would be they attend Gurdwara every 2 weeks or something for 30 mins meetings, starting at least 3 months before Anand Karaj, to show their progression as a Sikh or progression as a non-Sikh into Sikh, They have to uphold this to be allowed to do the ceremony. One absence only permitted

BUT, I doubt Gurdware can necessarily resource this time and will not want to put barriers to income - which is a shame

"Trolling" with this one, but maybe they need to do this only if the bride is Sikh, since they almost always do not bring up kids as Sikhs/groom never converts

I think your points are valid, but as we can see with this example, the Uk sangat does seem to have some sway in some Gurdwaras. In this case, and to the Nanaksar Gurdwara's credit, they very quickly rectified their mistake, and were apologetic for it too. We know there will be/have been other Gurdwara management that have unscrupulously valued their income over anything else and tried to adopt belligerent attitudes towards the sangat objecting, usually crawling up mainstream gora's bhunds as victims of 'extremism' <cough, cough>     

As for how to proceed with proving the issue of commitment, your idea is as good as any I can think of off my head. We need to come up with something together. And let us recall our ithihaasic precedents:   we know when sullay were converting in the 1700s onwards, Singhs took all manner of steps to ensure the conversion was genuine, from feeding them pork for x amount of days, to putting boar's blood in the Amrit, to temporarily burying them to cast off their previous auras into the ground. So this is inline with our culture.    

[Premi]

17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

to temporarily burying them to cast off their previous auras into the ground.

? 

I don't get this

[dalsingh101]

2 hours ago, Premi said:

? 

I don't get this

It's in Prem Sumarag if I recall rightly?

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

On 8/18/2023 at 9:30 AM, Premi said:

I think it's fine if the non Sikh intends to actually become a Sikh but not if it is just for show.

Never see Muslims converting when they marry out so we should do same

And if Anand Karaj is intended with one party who is non Sikh, there should be proof of commitment that they are on the path

Maybe a compromise for non-practising Sikhs would be some verbal agreement that they will take steps to become more into Sikhi

I get that. Then that is how it should be worded. That said that woukd disqualify 95% of punjabi people born as Sikhs who in my experience are not actually Sikhs in teh religious sense, and I do suspect that may be the case for Muslims, Christians and actually most humans. Most people are neither Atheist or deeply religious. Just afraid to die which is why they follow any philosophy that gives them an afterlife

[dalsingh101]

4 hours ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

Just afraid to die which is why they follow any philosophy that gives them an afterlife

I personally think that is a very cynical way of looking at it myself. I think some intelligent people intuitively feel interconnectiveness with creation and seek a bond with their creator. 

Also, cultures help can help stabilise their existence with a framework.    

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

23 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I personally think that is a very cynical way of looking at it myself. I think some intelligent people intuitively feel interconnectiveness with creation and seek a bond with their creator. 

Also, cultures help can help stabilise their existence with a framework.    

yeah guess so

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

23 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I personally think that is a very cynical way of looking at it myself. I think some intelligent people intuitively feel interconnectiveness with creation and seek a bond with their creator. 

Also, cultures help can help stabilise their existence with a framework.    

Also dont know how else to contact you as Can't message you in this webpage...separate subject but I think you may enjoy reading my last output..see link below..

 

https://likhari.net/kahani-taar-roop-dhilon/

 

 

[dalsingh101]

27 minutes ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

yeah guess so

Guess so???

 

Brother you come from a Sikh background! If that atheist, nasstik soch is to believed then all our Gurus and all our shaheeds were mugs, who were motivated by their imagination and some made up construct of a creator. I don't for one split second hold that to be true.  You want to think about what you're saying! And not get influenced by Godless fudhus. I'm not saying that people who believe in God can't be evil bastards - but come on. 

What happened?? You lose your faith or something!

[Premi]

On 8/21/2023 at 9:28 AM, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

Most people are neither Atheist or deeply religious. Just afraid to die which is why they follow any philosophy that gives them an afterlife

First sentence is true, but I don't think most younger people think about death much, they are looking for a meaning to their life.

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

On 8/22/2023 at 2:04 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Guess so???

 

Brother you come from a Sikh background! If that atheist, nasstik soch is to believed then all our Gurus and all our shaheeds were mugs, who were motivated by their imagination and some made up construct of a creator. I don't for one split second hold that to be true.  You want to think about what you're saying! And not get influenced by Godless fudhus. I'm not saying that people who believe in God can't be evil bastards - but come on. 

What happened?? You lose your faith or something!

No I have a very very different interpretation of the Mool Mantara compared to people who literally believe God was a man in the Abrahamic and Hindu sense. to Me God is how we describe the power that brought existence into being and thus the gender less Truth that is described in the Mool Mantar which makes "God" unquestionable by Science as it actually confirms the Sikh God. Sort of like the Force.  I just don't believe in blind faith that's all. When I received my award at the Sikh Education Council there was a woman from Pakistan who specialised in the Jap Ji Sahib and man she proved the way I have always seen it by stating clearly that what the actuals Gurus preached fitted in with the progressive side on the 15th to 17th century..moreover she verified my way of looking at the Sikhi God..not sure if there is a clip of her brief summary on the Jap Ji..but if there is it might be somewhere in this link...

 

https://www.facebook.com/balwindersingh.chahal/videos/797940328484417

 

[dalsingh101]

8 hours ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

No I have a very very different interpretation of the Mool Mantara compared to people who literally believe God was a man in the Abrahamic and Hindu sense. to Me God is how we describe the power that brought existence into being and thus the gender less Truth that is described in the Mool Mantar which makes "God" unquestionable by Science as it actually confirms the Sikh God. Sort of like the Force.  I just don't believe in blind faith that's all. When I received my award at the Sikh Education Council there was a woman from Pakistan who specialised in the Jap Ji Sahib and man she proved the way I have always seen it by stating clearly that what the actuals Gurus preached fitted in with the progressive side on the 15th to 17th century..moreover she verified my way of looking at the Sikhi God..not sure if there is a clip of her brief summary on the Jap Ji..but if there is it might be somewhere in this link...

 

https://www.facebook.com/balwindersingh.chahal/videos/797940328484417

 

Give me some credit. I can try and make my own opinion on the conceptualisation of Waheguru according to Sikhi without pakistani help (plus as we are talking about limitlessness, it's an endless framework). You're a proper peasant. lol