ALL THAT IS 3HO...

[Prabhu]

Well I'm a second generation Sikh, and you could say I'm from 3HO. I'm by no means an expert in what goes on in 3HO, but my perspective is definitely less skewed than most of the trash written on the internet.

First of all 3HO is not a SIKH organization. It is an organization intended to promote Kundalini yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan. Any business associated with it shouldn't upset people. If you made your living teaching yoga and believing that it is helping people, wouldn't you wish to expand?

Let me first address the point of kundalini yoga and white tantric yoga. Again I'm no expert, and I cannot go into detail about the origins of white tantric yoga, the previous mahan tantrics or what exclusive groups held on to this yoga before Yogi Bhajan shared it with the world. What I can say is that white tantric yoga is the most powerful yoga you're likely to find or experience on this earth. You can only find this out by trying it. If you're tough enough to stick it out it won't hurt you. One thing that people seem to forget is that our consciousness creates our reality. It is the basics of particle physics that everything is energy and particles can and do change based on our thoughts. If you believe that the food you eat is poison, it will certainly act as poison in your body. If you believe yoga or tantric yoga to be false, you will have a false experience.

<<the only issue I have with “kundalini yoga as taught by YB†is that is not ‘real’ kundalini yoga>>

I have heard this before, and to this I must say, who told you this? White tantric was previously kept secret. Whatever mainstream materials you are reading about kundalini yoga could easily be false. Much of the ancient, sacred knowledge of all cultures was kept secret. It doesn't matter if 5 books are written that seem to oppose the teachings of Yogi Bhajan, if they are all from the same false source. That is why 3HO emphasizes "as taught by Yogi Bhajan," to the people in 3HO his teachings ARE the authentic kundalini yoga and other sources can only offer little in comparison to his direct instructions being a master of this yoga.

Next I will address internet materials. From my perspective there is no objective or neutral material written about 3HO on the internet. You either have just the positives, written by 3HO, or just the negatives, written by people who used to associate with 3HO. When I read the negative articles I feel like I've been poisoned. Rick Ross is the worst slanderer and possibly used to be a member of 3HO. Rick Ross has attacked anything and everything that has anything to do with 3HO. Nobody who has had any positive association with 3HO or Yogi Bhajan is safe from his attacks. According to him and most other negative writers on the internet, if you can think positively about 3HO or Yogi Bhajan, then you are wrong. As a Sikh I prefer to think positively, what 3HO and Yogi Bhajan have done for me, is all I need to know.

I think what most people can find out about 3HO from any of the articles is that the people who join 3HO are not what most would consider “normal†Americans. They are free thinkers, hippies, former druggies, formerly abused people, soul searchers, healers, teachers, executives, warriors, Sikhs. When you have such an eclectic mix you can never know what to expect. There are good people and there are bad people. Good things have happened and bad things have happened. What people must understand is the students of Yogi Bhajan, whether they are students of yoga or the Sikh dharma, learn from him so that they may go out to the world and improve the world. All that is 3HO, Sikh dharma of the western hemisphere, etc. is about is the BETTERMENT OF HUMANITY. Something most members are committed to.

[Prabhu]

This reply is in reference to the article that was posted earlier.

Again this is poison. If somebody tells you 3HO is entirely good or entirely bad don't believe them. What you should believe is the majority of people are committed to being and doing good. A small few sometimes ruin it for the rest of us.

This article is offensive to any Sikh. She begins by calling Yogi Bhajan the Guru (which pisses me off to no end). All the meditation I do and still I can get quite upset when ignorant people from 3HO insult the Guru. I cringe at the thought of these people, I can't imagine people like this walking around in a turban claiming to be Sikh and having no understanding, but what they felt in yoga class. Furthermore when Yogi Bhajan turns out not to be the father they wanted or the lover they desired, or the sycophant they wished for, or the Jesus they were searching for, they go nuts and write slander.

A not so subtle look into this article will expose all the misconceptions and hypocrisy:

<<â€Breath of Fire Kaur">> Burning in fire, wishing to be Kaur, would be more appropriate.

<< to my old guru>> proof that this woman never had any idea what it means to be a student of the Guru. Yogi Bhajan has never failed to tell people that he is not the Guru.

<< One former 3HO student, who was once an accountant for the group, approached the producers of the "60 Minutes" television show about doing a segment on Yogi Bhajan. Their response was that people like Yogi Bhajan are just "small potatoes" compared to big newsmakers like the Peoples Temple and Waco Davidians.>>

Mentioning this shows the pervasive attitude of those who left. They are hell bent on destroying 3HO. If I was upset at 3HO I would leave and never turn back.

<< I walked around town looking like the Pillsbury Doughgirl--while my guru played around and committed adultery year after year.>>

Here she goes again. Never once has there been proof that Yogi Bhajan committed adultery. All the stories are he said she said, nothing leveled at Yogi Bhajan has held up in court. Furthermore she is insulting every woman who has ever worn a turban. And of course, she is insulting the Guru again, by referring to Yogi Bhajan as the Guru.

<< They drove old Mercedes just so they could look "prosperous"--- even if they were barely making a living.>> This shows how stupid some members and former members of 3HO can be.

<< In part, I consider my own departure a real success--because I don’t dwell too much on the past. People who are in 3HO believe that is their reality. It seems that many are like big fish in a small pond and the pond has grown rather stagnant--but that's their choice.>>

If she didn’t dwell on the past she wouldn’t be writing slanderous articles. Furthermore, the Sikh members of 3HO understand themselves to be but a drop of water wishing to merge into the ocean. The only stagnant pond is her conception on Sikhism.

<< In fact, when I was making my plans to "take off the turban", I worried that my yoga students would be let-down or disillusioned with me. Quite the contrary, virtually everyone that knows or hears of my past has expressed strong support for that decision and my new life.>>

Here again this woman is insulting our sacred turban and the roop prescribed to the Khalsa. Acting as though a Sikh taking their turban off is empowering and progressive. She apparently never understood anything.

<< I find it easier to communicate now with people. Today there are no superficial barriers like white clothes from head to toe, which separated me from mainstream society.>>

The Khalsa will always be separated from mainstream society, and it won’t be because of white clothes. If she had any concept, she would know that it is the 5 K’s that make us visible and makes it impossible for us to hide from our commitment.

<< Yogi Bhajan often used guilt-trips in his lectures. He said that people left 3HO because of "sex, power, or money". The implication was always that people, who in his estimation somehow failed spiritually--were weak and could not stay on the spiritual path because of worldly temptations.>>

That fact that she couldn’t recognize the Siri Guru Granth Sahib or maintain the roop of the Khalsa shows that this woman is weak and intent on following worldly temptations or “mainstream society†in her words.

Can Yogi Bhajan be responsible for the actions of nut cases?

If anybody feels as though I have slandered this woman I apologize, but I get really upset at this kind of trash. As the son of Guru Gobind Singh, I cannot tolerate when people insult the Guru and the Khalsa.

[Guest]

Prabu,

You have written with honesty and I welcome you to our forum. Please, be our regular member so we can learn about this organization. And let me tell you that im impress with American Sikhs dedication towards Sikhism. I hope they spend more time in India and learn it from real source.

Thank you!

[Prabhu]

This isn't the first thread I've read about 3HO and I'm sure it won't be the last. I've read a number of threads all over different discussion boards. It's always the same stuff. I try to write on the internet so that some people can get some semblence of the truth.

There are a number of people in 3HO who live in denial and try to say that nothing bad has ever happened or that Yogi Bhajan is perfect. I would never say either of these, as I have questioned everything in my life. When most people question the Sikh dharma they begin to study what it means and it usually leaves people as stronger Sikhs.

When I came across the vast array of materials about 3HO on the internet I tried to get as many answers as I could and I still try to get answers. The reason I say that you will get a semblence of truth from me is that I claim allegiance to the Guru and the Khalsa first. I will call a spade a spade. I am not loyal to all that is 3HO and I won't sugar coat anything. The writings of former members of 3HO are for the most part made up or exaggerated. They will think of a time when they felt abused and then take it to the extreme and even make up events that never actually happened. There is one website where a former member of 3HO mentions that he was kicked out by Yogi Bhajan and that he still remains spiritual. What he doesn't mention is that he ran off with thousands of dollars of the community's (ashram's) money.

I have read some of their writings and thought "Oh yeah, I've seen that happening." And then I'll think those poor fools, I can't believe they thought that was reality. Like people will go on and on about wearing white clothes and say how it is mandatory and people will put pressure on you if you don't. When I read this kind of stuff I think "Those poor fools, what made them think that they could only wear white?" Furthermore, what kind of spineless, brainless people are these who would follow something they don't undertsand?

Anyway enough about those former members and their not-even half-truths. On to the other writings. It is quite appearant that people on this forum and most other forums have little idea what 3HO is about. It is evident by their writings and the numerous other threads where people continue to quote slanderous and blasphemous writings. I don't mean they're blasphemous to 3HO. If it's not blatantly obvious to you, look closer, most of these people are slandering the Sikh dharma as well.

Here are some misconceptions from this forum:

<<3HO is essentially a 'closed-shop' (say through their International Peace Prayer Day and other exclusive events). >>

This is far from the truth. 3HO is opened to everybody and Peace Prayer Day is the opposite of an exclusive event. People from around the world are invited. It is an event many people in 3HO are proud of, because it is an event where we honor peace and those making contributions to it. I'll say it again: anybody can attend any event hosted by 3HO.

<>

This looks like writing from the Rick Ross website. It looks like an attempt to falsify all of these practices because they make money or are associated with some people in 3HO. Well I don't know much about Sat Nam Rasayan, but I can tell you that only the name was manufactured. The rest is based on ancient traditional shamanic healing. There are still many medicine men and women in the Americas and their knowledge can still be accessed. I don't know what breathwalk is, but yogic cuisine cannot be called manufactured. Any cuisine that assists a yogic practice is valid. As I have written before, the people who participate in these kinds of the things are the people who really believe in them. They are the people who make a living off of these practices and wish to expand them for the betterment of humanity. If you don't believe them and don't wish to pay for them, then don't. But don't go on about technologies being false, simply because you don't understand them. I don't understand them either, but I know that there is truth in everything, just as God is contained in everything and God is truth.

<<can we expect yet more Sikh sects developing from 3HO and ties being cut from the other sangats should 3HO puritanical attitudes become more manifest ("our women are more involved"..."YB said that 40 Pauris of the Anand Sahib or only 5...etc etc). >>

I guess speaking your fears may help you to overcome them. This just seems ludicrous. I don't know what "3HO puritanical attitudes" are, but they will never take away anything from the sangat which is unified by the Guru. Yogi Bhajan has taught that women are our equal. If Sikhs would listen to the Guru, he wouldn't need to reiterate the point. Furthermore, Anand Sahib is 40 pauris, if you read only 5, you are being lazy with your committment to the Guru.

<<it only breaks down when they begin speaking of Raag Bilawal being powerful and raising one's Kundalini Energy>>

This must be a joke. Kundalini is mentioned one time in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib (page 1402):

"The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss."

I don't know why you're mentioning a specific raag, but I find it interesting that you can't conceptualize your Kundalini rising when listening to Gurbani Kirtan.

In closing, If you don't understand about 3HO it is better to ask neutral questions, rather than writing false opinions and reading slanderous poison.

I'll give you an example. I don't know much about AKJ, but I have read some good and bad things on the internet. However I wouldn't go on the internet writing about certain practices of theirs and calling them false. Neither would I ask leading questions. Neither would I post quotes from those who slander them. If I wanted to learn more of their practices I would ask a variety of people associated with AKJ. I wouldn't ask one or two people and use my limited or misunderstood conception of what they say to base my whole opinion on everybody associated with AKJ.

Let us unite as Khalsa. We are all humans and we will all have our differences. Why don't we live in cherdi kala and accept that most Sikhs, no matter who they identify with, are here to do good. Why don't we consider the contributions of others and not the controversies?

[Prabhu]

I hope they spend more time in India and learn it from real source

India is not the only place for the real source. I was never so upset at the actions of Sikhs until my first trip to India. Whereas I mostly had a great time in India and met a lot of great Sikhs. The Sikhs that have offended me more than any others were in India.

Where I live in the US we have a branch of Punjabi University. With a sole professor. He is an expert on Sikhism and has taught the community so much. A number of Americans who have never been to India or can't afford to go are learning Gurmat and Punjabi from him. With the exception of the atmosphere, anything that India can offer a Sikh can be written on the internet, or imported abroad.

The majority of American Sikhs that are not of Punjabi descent know that the real source is the Guru.

My mother would never have become Sikh if she saw the way women are treated in India. My father would have never been Sikh if somebody couldn't explain to him in English the principles of Gurmat. Likewise I would have left a long time ago, had I not benefitted from many great American Sikhs.

I hope that all Sikhs spend more time with the Guru.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Prabhu Ji... I have a neutral question to ask, something that perhaps may give others an insight into this matter.

You have stated that Kundalini Yoga was a hidden practice before hand and that Yogi Bhajan ji was the one to bring it forth....

Out of curiosity, who was Yogi Bhajan Ji's spiritual teacher and from where did Kundalini Yoga originate from?

Thanks, and if it takes u time to find the sources for it, that's ok, totally understandable.

~Cj~

[Prabhu]

It may take me a while to find out about Yogi Bhajan's teacher, but I'll try. As far as the origins of Kundalini Yoga, I imagine it has been around since the dawn of the human species, at least since the dawn of yoga. Kundalini Yoga is the yoga of awareness. It is a complete yoga, the fundamentals of all other schools of yoga are contained in Kundalini yoga. I imagine that Kundalini yoga may have been the first yoga, since it is complete. Other yogas concentrate on more specific things like just the breath, or just the posture, or just the mudra, but Kundalini encompasses all of this and is intended to prepare the body and mind for meditation (naam simran). Although I'm very novice in Kundalini yoga and don't really practice it myself, I can appreciate it because it does not detract from the basic Sikh principle of naam simran but enhances and enables many to reach naam simran.

[Guest]

The majority of American Sikhs that are not of Punjabi descent know that the real source is the Guru.

We all know about that brother not just American Sikhs but in order to learn these languages you have to be in touch with real schools. Also, only Punjabi is not sufficient to learn about Sikhism. Sikh gurus were learned men with all the qualities one can have and they had knowledge of all the famous languages of that time.

My mother would never have become Sikh if she saw the way women are treated in India.

This is not a good way to adopt any religion or judging its accountbility on the basis of social problems because I can say the same thing for America as well. I would have never become American citizen if I knew that how racist American people are? But you know bad apples exist in every country, race, caste and community then why single out India only, which has blessing of having prophets, saint/sant and rishi-munnis more than any country in the world?... Also, it is bad generalization of India where you're putting down all the intellectuals of India just because of rural Sikhs culture, which you might have come across while sitting on bull cart… We cannot see the bright side of America if we are walking in countryside of America.

My father would have never been Sikh if somebody couldn't explain to him in English the principles of Gurmat. Likewise I would have left a long time ago, had I not benefitted from many great American Sikhs. I hope that all Sikhs spend more time with the Guru.

Yes, I agree with you here but make sure you don't get into learning about your Gurus from twisted form of Gurbani, which most of the English translations have done. If you know 50% of truth then you would try to explore more about languages used in Guru Granth Sahib because English cannot and let me say it in quotes "will not" be able to bring the true message of Gurus.

If you understand Punjabi then let me know so I can upload Giani Maan Singh Johr's katha in which he explained how Sikhs will have wrong and twisted meanings of Gurus message just because of English. If you don't know who Giani Maan Singh Johr is then ask any intellectual.

[Prabhu]

I have not had the opportunity to learn Punjabi, where I'm from Spanish is far more useful. I hope someday to learn Punjabi, but it is not at the forefront of my activities now. I think the best way to begin learning from the Guru Granth Sahib is study the list of most common words. I forget which site it's on, but you can find it on the internet.

English cannot and let me say it in quotes "will not" be able to bring the true message of Gurus.

I take issue with this statement. If English can't bring forth the true meaning, than how can Katha in Punjabi? As you have pointed out that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is written in several languages. God knows all the languages right? If it is our karma we will learn the meaning of the Granth through our native language.

For instance, Ek Ong Kar, a simple statement yet at the same time complex. If I knew Punjabi, would I understand Ek Ong Kar any better?

Does it matter what language I conceptualize it in? or does it matter how I undertsand it when I meditate on Ek Ong Kar? If I knew Punjabi, would my thoughts then be in Punjabi? I imagine my thoughts would be the same and my intellectual understanding of Ek Ong Kar would be the same.

In mentioning the treatment of women in India, I was making a commentary on the pervasive culture. The negative aspects of American culture which you have mentioned are not so pervasive. In India you will find that women aren't even allowed to do seva at the Hari Mandir Sahib, whereas in America you will find that women are allowed to do anything and that Sikh women know it and enjoy that freedom.

The Sikh Dharma is not exclusive, if we cannot learn to communicate the message of the Guru in multiple languages we'll be doomed. Not every person who has the potential to be Sikh can learn Punjabi, but all Sikhs can learn from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

India has much to offer, but certainly real Sikhism exists anywhere a Sikh is. I mentioned that American Sikhs know that the real source is the Guru, not to suggest that only American Sikhs know this, but to suggest that they know this whether or not they have the opportunity to go to India.

Couldn't we also argue that the real source is Pakistan? Half of the Punjab is there.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

n mentioning the treatment of women in India, I was making a commentary on the pervasive culture. The negative aspects of American culture which you have mentioned are not so pervasive.

Hmmmm..... that aspect was:

This is not a good way because I can say the same thing for America as well. I would have never become American citizen if I knew that how racist American people are here?

I have a problem w ur statement that racism is not pervasive in american society.... if it is not pervasive as u say, then why were some sikhs killed/injured followin the 9/11.... if thats not racial injustice that was mainstream then i don't know what is....

American society now is more racially intolerant than what it was 5 yrs ago. Ppl are randomly uprooted from their homes on the basis of suspected terroist links when a lot of them have been law abiding American citizens.... anyone w a skin color or tan/brown is looked upon w suspicion... and ur saying that it's not pervasive... :?

Also, the treatment of women in india is by no means respectable, but what of the mainstream American/hollywood treatment of women .... here they are turned into mere objects that are meant to attract and sell magazines, movies, products, everywhere one looks, there is an excessively thin women trying to sell something, is this treatment of women not more horrendous than that seen in india....

I for one would not liked to be looked at as an object, but would be recognised as an individual w a mind of her own and knowledge to go through this world w strength.....

I mean seriously ask any american child who do they consider to be the smartest women in the USA and i'm not sure whether u;ll get an actual answer, but ask them who the prettiest one is and i'm sure u'll get some britney's, some jessica's , pamelas as well.....

What does that say about American Society and their treatment of women????

[Prabhu]

I have a problem w ur statement that racism is not pervasive in american society.... if it is not pervasive as u say, then why were some sikhs killed/injured followin the 9/11.... if thats not racial injustice that was mainstream then i don't know what is....

One Sikh was killed, this is not acceptable, however after the assasination of Indira Ghandi, thousands of Sikhs in India were killed. There is no justification for either.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

ok, so one sikh was killed, but what about the arabs w/in america that have been facing stiff racial opposition, and also those that were deported back to their countries because of the american intelligence misinformed decisions....

[Prabhu]

I wasn't done with my post, I accidentally hit submit instead of quote:

what of the mainstream American/hollywood treatment of women .... here they are turned into mere objects that are meant to attract and sell magazines, movies, products, everywhere one looks, there is an excessively thin women trying to sell something

Bollywood does the same to women as hollywood except worse. Almost every Bollywood movie involves a man chasing a woman, a woman saying no, no, no, and then later realizing the errors of her ways. Where I come from, women are treated with respect. Furthermore any woman in America can invoke the law to get fair treatment if she is not already receiving it.

This debate has gone on before, it's really not worth it. What my point is, is that Sikhs must be pluralistic. If we limit Sikhism to India, we leave so many out. My commentaries about what might have happened with my parents was to illustratate the point that you cannot approach a non-Indian with standard Indian culture. They generally don't get it. Most Americans don't understand the Punjabi culture, but many understand the concept of universal fellowship and the worship of one God. Many Punjabis that I meet do not seperate Sikhism from being Punjabi and therefore have no medium in which to approach non-Punjabis. If I were a Christian, with no clue about the Punjabi culture, would it be wise for me to go to the Punjab and teach my religion in English?

We need Sikhs from every culture and every corner of the world. Our common committment to the Guru will unify us.

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

[Guest]

Prabhu Jee,

I will anwser most of your questions and points you have posted. Just wait for me to come back because right now im short on time.

[tSingh]

Gurfatehji

I have enormous respect for 3HO practitioners, and that is not from some 'my god their white and sikh' mentality, but because I can well understand the shit they have to put up with keeping sikhi roop in the west, and how psychologically draining that can be.

My concerns about 3HO are not borne out of hearsay nor the dubious and opportunistic Rick Ross, rather from endless testimonies of recent and old respected X-3HOers including the likes of Bhai Vikram Singh who were there early on and through the difficult 80s, another X-3HO singh I was in contact with who stayed in India and lived with the Nihangs in the early 80s, etc. I've also taken the time to read YB's and 3HOs writings, and western academic's articles (Verne Dusenbery) on 3HO.

My most serious concerns are that;

a) YB is no role model, but instead the ultimate NRI success story

that many 3HO singhs and kaurs have not educated themselves in itihas, gurbani, etc and as such have been sitting ducks for crap

c) That the communal ashram lifestyle in a western society is a breeding ground for abuse and psychological problems

d) The seriously questionnable system of sending 3HO kids to the dehra dun school, now miri piri academy at a vulnberable age

e) The dubious milkshake of sikhi and new age philosophy

f) and MY GOD the belief that bhangra is somehow spiritual!!! Please just watch one of the many soft porn bhangra videos out now brrrrrrraaaa

Perhaps Prabhu could discuss these issues (you can leave part f).

thanks

[Guest]

One Sikh was killed, this is not acceptable, however after the assasination of Indira Ghandi, thousands of Sikhs in India were killed. There is no justification for either.

I would say that Sikhs should learn from black community of America?

Why not have a look at following links?

http://www.thenorthstarnetwork.com/news/ot...s/181547-1.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive...1233422,00.html

http://www.africanaonline.com/riots.htm

And I think "jtSingh" has given you lots of homework to finish, so I won't bother adding more here. I let you finish that first because we should take it one by one.

[Hari]

jtSingh has raised some very important and pertinent points.Sorry Prabhu Ji if you already know, the word "itihas" in question refers to history, specifically Sikh history.Apologies if you already know.

[Prabhu]

I'll start this post by reiterating that I'm not blinded to the problems of 3HO. I see the problems and if there's something I can do about them, then I will take action. If there's nothing I can do, I ignore them and let others deal with their problems. I'd also like to reiterate, however, that I have never met a single person who has left 3HO and is not totally bitter. Whereas I can give a neutral opinion, in which I credit 3HO for it's good points and don't shy away from it's bad points, those who have left cannot see any good in anything 3HO including the people associated with 3HO.

The man that you are in contact with, jtSingh may be the same man I was referring to in my other post, who was sent away from 3HO because he was the head of an ashram and stole money from that ashram.

<<

My most serious concerns are that;

a) YB is no role model, but instead the ultimate NRI success story

that many 3HO singhs and kaurs have not educated themselves in itihas, gurbani, etc and as such have been sitting ducks for crap

c) That the communal ashram lifestyle in a western society is a breeding ground for abuse and psychological problems

d) The seriously questionnable system of sending 3HO kids to the dehra dun school, now miri piri academy at a vulnberable age

e) The dubious milkshake of sikhi and new age philosophy

f) and MY GOD the belief that bhangra is somehow spiritual!!! Please just watch one of the many soft porn bhangra videos out now brrrrrrraaaa

>>

a)Yogi Bhajan has done a lot of good for a lot of people, I credit him for that. He has never done anything to hurt me, but has rather helped me in my spiritual journey. I know also that there are many false acusations against him. He tests many people. He likes to say "poke, provoke, and elevate." A lot of the people in 3HO need some kind of wake up call to really get to where he expects us to be, so he challenges them. Those who would do anything for him, shouldn't later be upset because he hurt them. If you can't handle his tests, don't let him have that kind of power over you, it's that simple. Though if you can't handle his tests as your accepted teacher, I can't imagine you being successful as an unwavering Khalsa. So what if Yogi Bhajan isn't a role model, he always says that we need to be 10 times greater than he. Everything that he has taught me has been good for me, and I feel like I should respect him enough to be 10 times greater than the 100% positive experience that he has given to me.

This is true. (Thanks to Hari for telling me the meaning of itihas, because I wasn't clear.) All I can say is that ignorance is like the worst plague of humanity. If an individual doesn't take responsibility for their own education can 3HO or Yogi Bhajan be blamed? After all Yogi Bhajan never ceases to speak about consciousness and conscious living. I would think that his students would pick up on that and take it on their own shoulders to educate themselves. I can tell you that the second generation of 3HO Sikhs are strong Sikhs and will always continue to learn Gurmat and strive to follow the true life of a Khalsa.

c) I can't entirely agree with this. In the West we have nuclear families, an ashram is just like an extended family in India. However, I don't know where people get their information from, but as far as I know there is no such ashram like the early days. I know of NO place where 3HO Sikhs live in one building as an ashram. Where I live, many Sikhs have homes near the Gurdwara, just like any other neighborhood in the US.

d) I agree with you on this. I can't imagine sending your child half way around the world when they are very young. However each child and each parent is different. Before Miri Piri Academy the were a number of abuses at the schools in India, however Miri Piri changed that. I have visited Miri Piri and I was so thoroughly impressed. There is so much love and devotion at that school. The kids always rise in the Amrit Vela and they all wear turbans as part of their uniform. It is strict but fair. Actually when I was there, a few students were just like spoiled American teenagers in the US (i.e. I thought some needed a little more discipline). When I have children I would love to send them to India to further their education and I really hope that Miri Piri Academy continues to be an excellent institution. My children will decide at what age they feel like going.

e) Some of it is dubious and some of it isn't. I'm not really into much new age stuff, but a lot of times I can see it's place. If people in the community want to do their thing I don't mind. At one point last year, somebody did some new age thing during a gurdwara somewhere and Bibiji (Yogi Bhajan's wife) admonished them. She even came to our Gurdwara and said "if you want to do that stuff at home fine, but don't bring it into the Gurdwara." I was a little upset at whatever person was doing this, but at the end all I could do was laugh. I just thought "these 3HO hippies when will they ever learn?" I just think they will be the first to leave when Yogi Bhajan dies (those who don't get it), and we will be stronger and better for it.

f) I have never really heard this, but I can tell you most of us don't have access to Punjabi media (music, videos, television, etc.) I could almost guarantee to you that most 3HO people are unaware that modern Bhangra is like softcore pornography. Most 3HO people think of Bhangra as the traditional folk dance of the harvest season in Punjab. The only thing I can think that you're thinking about is probably Yogi Bhajan saying that Bhangra is great exercise or something like that. Nobody believes it to be somehow spiritual and very few people know that it has been so degraded.

[Prabhu]

I just did a google search on Verne Dusenbery, because I've never heard of him, and all I can say is that I'm not impressed.

http://web.hamline.edu/cla/academics/anthr...faculty/van.htm

This site will give a self-promoting, self-important, recondite view of his "works".

Amongst his "inspiring" words he writes: "The other main intellectual influence on the dissertation was the New Zealand-based historian, W.H. McLeod, the leading figure in Sikh studies."

He seems to think that he knows something about Sikhs, and he is heavily influenced by McLeod???????

Further he created the following website about "Sikhs". Without even entering the website you'll find a central picture of two mona "Sikhs". He obviously knows nothing.

http://www.hamline.edu/~vdusenbery/

Further on this site you will find written "Hew McLeod, the foremost western historian of the Sikh religion, graciously agreed to contribute the opening chapter for this volume."

When I was a child I thought anybody who even knows about Sikhs would want to be a Sikh. I couldn't understand how anybody would not want to be a Sikh.

I'm still convinced, as an adult, that any so-called scholar or anybody who has done any kind of research into the Sikh dharma, would become Khalsa if they knew anything. Conversely those "researchers," "intellectuals," or anything else that don't embrace the Khalsa, truly know nothing about Sikhism.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Hey hey hey..... u come across, Prabhu Ji, as a very bitter and angry person, which u may not be at all, but thats what i'm gettin from your posts... Most of us here are ignorant and don't know much about 3HO or have heard stories from third parties, we've asked you some questions, which it seems that you've taken personally, don't do that, do enlighten us, gives us your take, but not at the expense of heightening your bp...

Problem is that there's a vast amount of information out there, and it's hard to recognize what's wrong and right.... so helps out here.....

Also... don't underestimate the love a "mona" can have for God Almighty, remember we're all the same in His eyes and he chooses the time for us to take Amrit.... so chill bhaji...

[Prabhu]

I appreciate your advice, but I'm certainly not angry or bitter. My life is a battlefield, and I combat each attack with strength and clarity.

My posts use strong language because we are talking about what I believe in strongly. The ignorance about 3HO often leads to misinformation. The material written against 3HO usually attacks "All that is 3HO" and in a way that includes me. When I look at the sangat in Gurdwara, I see only saints. I cannot think a negative thought about a person in Gurdwara, even if I know all sorts of negative things about them. Mostly though, I know so many incredible people that are in some way associated with 3HO. These are great people who sometimes would feel crushed and disillusioned to find out that "Sikhs" or others are writting attacks about them on the internet.

I wrote the post about Verne because he is a nindak and egotist. I would advise all Sikhs to avoid the likes of him and McLeod. They may have some elements of truth in what they write, but most of it is garbage because it comes from the people whose intent is to unravel the sanctity of Sikh Dharma.

As far as I'm concerned there is no room for a traitor on the battle field and a mona in the dharma. Page 304:

"O chosen people, O self-elect, one who does not publicly affirm his Guru is not a good person; he loses all his profits and capital."

This is all I can say to the cowards who cannot accept even a simple hukam from the Guru to maintain their sacred kesh.

[Guest]

This is all I can say to the cowards who cannot accept even a simple hukam from the Guru to maintain their sacred kesh.

Veer ji...we have to remember that everything comes with time and at its own pace...so calling others "cowards" who have cut hair but still learning on path slowly in sehaj...isnt goin to help.

As YB always states:

"If you cant see god in all, you cant see god at all".

Its all about prem.

"Jin Prem kio, tin hi prab pio" (satguroo gobind singh maharaj )

[Hari]

Jai Jai Mahakal!

Jai Jai Chandika!

This is offensive:

As far as I'm concerned there is no room for a traitor on the battle field and a mona in the dharma.

Prabhu, you have a serious problem here.Because you've just proven that you aren't up to being a Sikh of Satguru Nanak Nirankar.A Sikh of Satguru Nanak would never say that a "mona" can't be part of the "dharma".Never.

What "dharma" do you speak of?You are going down the wrong road if you think that a mona cannot be a Sikh of Satguru Nanak Dev.Next you will be saying that the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa are wrong in doing jhatka and sukha. :twisted:

Please reply to my PM Prabhu Ji.Spread the Love.

Jai Saringpani Ki!

[Prabhu]

Sometimes I "shoot from the hip", so to speak.

I have acceptance and appreciation for those who are learning, but too often I find people who think it is acceptable as a Sikh to cut their hair. This I will never agree with. Have you ever read an article in which all Sikhs with hair are referred to as "orthodox" or "extremists"? When truly they are the only Sikhs.

A Sikh is a disciple, a student of the Guru. Some people think that you can be a Sikh and cut your hair, as long as you maintain the rest of the dharma to the best of your ability. Unfortunately the most basic principle of being a Sikh is accepting the Guru and the Guru's instructions. Really your hair is the first step, without it you are not a disciple, a learner.

Can one conquer their ego? If you can't take the first step towards the Guru, then what is your purpose in claiming yourself a Sikh?

My statement about cowards comes from my experience. All those who have at some time claimed to be Sikh and have cut their hair, that I know of, have done it from cowardice. It is a lack of understanding a lot of times, but it is cowardice, fear that they don't fit in, that causes them to cut their hair rather than learn its purpose.

To Hari: I have never proven that I'm not up to being a Sikh of Guru Nanak. Guru Gobind Singh is my father and I honor my father each day. All that I've said in that statement is that an apostate cannot claim to follow the dharma (lifestyle) of the Guru. This is true. What I write on a discussion board doesn't show who I really am. I'm keenly aware now that people here don't have a bit of understanding about my true feelings, habits and actions towards others.

This is a SIKH discussion board, about AWARENESS right?

I thought for once I don't have to be politically correct. Why not write it how it is? Those who cannot accept the Guru's hukam do not walk the Guru's dharma.

Sorry if you cut your hair and feel offended by this.

[Hari]

No offence taken.I chhak Amrit everyday.