Saabat Soorat Dastaar Sira?

[Guest]

So, what does this line from Guru Granth sahib is trying to convey? Whats the message?

[Pheena]

page #??

[Mr §ingh]

I have yet no Butti about Gurbani..

But I know its on Panna / Ang

1084

[Guest]

Well, the reason to start this discussion was simple. I've seen this that most of the young sikhs don't even take second to post this tuk just to prove that Guru Granth sahib has this line and it says sikhs should be "Saabat Soorat Dastar Sira" and I find it misleading because Gurbani or lets say Guru Granth Sahib is not using this line for Sikhs but if we read it carefully its giving totally different message. I was wodering if someone else has noticed it too?

[Guest]

Well I won't make it mystery and here is why I brought it up.

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Source Sikhnet:

Let us try to understand what does "Sabat Soorat Dastar Sira" refers to in its proper context. Guru ji in Gurbani use an important motif again and again. This motifs regards the relationship of humans with God as that of a Turkish Sultan or or a Mughal Patshah. There are many references to this concept such as

Tu Sultan Kaha Hau Meean Teri Kawan Vadaee

Related to this motif is another motif which visualises the final destination of us mortals to go to the court of the divine Sultan, to the Dargah of the Akal Purkh honourably.

In the days of Guruji as even today no one was authorised to go to the court or Darabar or Dargah of the Sultan unless specifically attired. Those who were taken to the court as criminals to be punished were taken with their head-dress removed and the turban if any hanging around their neck. The sign of acceptance and honour by the Sultan was that one was allowed to go in the Dargah with proper head-dress on and fully attired. We find in Gurbani for example

Vich dunia sev kamaeeay ta dargah vaisan paeeay

If we serve others in this world we shall get a seat in the Dargah (of God)

"Ta Dargah Paidhah Jaisee" in Asa Di Var

Then you would go fully clad to the Dargah (of God)

The village elders and members of the village coucils are called Panch or Pardhan(in UP) now as was the case then. These Panches being honourable memebers of their communities were also honoured by the Emperors and would go attired to a seat in the court of the Sultan. Guru ji uses this term in Japuji when it says

Panch Parvan Panch Pardhan Panchay Pave Dargah Man

The village elders are accepted (in the court) and they are the heads(of villages) and these Panches are honoured in the court.

Here Guruji is using analogy to say that those who remember God are accepted in the court like the Panches

This line follows the earlier lines such as

Mannay Pat Siu Pargat Jai

If one accepts the sovereignity of God then he shall go to Wahegur's Court with honour intact and with unhidden face(the guilty hide their face because of shame)

It is in this context that Guruji in the Sabad you quoted in your post are addressing the Muslims that if they do all the proper things said in the Sabad then that Muslim would go to Allah's court fully attired (with unshaven face(Sabat Soorat) - the criminals were invariably presented before the King with shaven head and face)with an honourable turban on their head. This has nothing to with an instruction directly to keep hair.

You are right in saying that we should not use quotations from Gurbani out of context to suit our pupose.

Humbly

Serjinder Singh

I will say the same if I understood the right meaning of Gurbani from my Maha-moorakh mind in regards to this particular quotation that we should not use quotations from Gurbani out of context to suit our pupose.

[BabbarSher]

Dear Veerji,

We are all fools trying to learn. Also there is nothing offending about your explanation. Everyone is entitled to their point of view.

I do think however that when trying to translate a Shabad, we need to go over the ENTIRE Shabad carefully and analyse it.

I am below average person in understanding Gurbaani.

Following are my views and I would like you to analyse them.

The Shabad...we are referring to is on the following pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

It starts at Page 1083 and the lines we are referring to are in Page 1084.

You can please visit the site www.srigranth.org for the complete shabad. Ths site has a very good search engine in Gurmukhi and u need only write word dastar (using mousle clicks on a Java based screen Gurmukhi...found on the first page).

The Whole shabad (according to my understanding) is addressed to Muslims..(Muslims in Physical aspect only). The whole message is of course the same as in many other shabads and is for the universal brotherhood.

Now if we look closely we find that Guru Maharaj is comparing and the physical religion followed by Muslims and advising them on the right path o sikhi.

There is refernce to Mecca, Sunnat (circumcision) and a lot of other physical muslim traits.

Now if we come to the lines in reference, I believe that there are some importants things that Guru Maharaj is instructing here.

Gure Maharaj is saying......let your total awareness ..the complete form which i have given you..............."sabat surat".........be the turban on ur head)....................

If you notice the earlier lines of the complete Shabad...you will notice that Guru Maharaj is replacing the physical attributes of the Muslims with spirtual attributes + physical practical actions of sikhi)

In this line again, Guru Maharaj actually replaces the physical attributes of the Musilms ( a turban) with the Physical attribute (Hair (physical)...+ ....{sabat surat could also refer to no circumcision...but in an earlier line ...Guru Maharaj has already compared and replaced it}.......the complete awareness (spirtual) .....)

Hence in my understanding (alhtough it too is a bit different from contemporary understanding)...this is a very clear pointer about maintaing the Hair....in effect the complete natural form given by God.

I dont think this is a pointer towards wearing a turban. Of course when you keep a long hair, a turban is necessary to maintain the same properly.

[Guest]

I don't know if you count Professor Sahib singh as scholar but I see his translation to the point. Please, have a look. http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1084.html

[BabbarSher]

Yes I definately do. In fact I consider his transaltion to be the best.

I had gone through it before I made my post. Maybe I erred in communicating...but I think my post is a more or less a translation of Bhai Sahib's translation !!

[Guest]

The point I was making through this post that sikhs should not lower and distort meaning of our Gurbani. We all know how important it is to have all kakkars but in order to make someone understand we should not use quotations from Gurbani out of context to suit our pupose.

[Guest]

I found one more article related to same subject. Please, have a look.

http://www.gurbani.org/webart121.htm

[BabbarSher]

Very High Funda Article .:-) Needs loads of concentration ... :-)....hmm I think you wrote but ....truly very high funda.... but i will read at a more leisurely time :-)

I do agree that the question' Why do i need to keep a Kakkar ..doesnt make sense. Rather we should put the question,,,,why do I need to shave ? etc.

Also the biggest reason for keeping Kakkars is cause the Gurus asked you to. thats all........we dont need to give any reasons including medical.

Yes i do agree with you, that Gurbaani is more for the spirit then the body, still at some places, like above ---the physical meaning does come into plav ..and I hope you agree, as is translated by Bhai Sahib that this is a pointer towards the physical appearance as well ...right ?

[BabbarSher]

Pardon my poor spellings and grammatical mistakes...(did i write grammatical correctly ..;-) lol

[Guest]

The point of making this thread is simple. Guru ji didn't use that phrase for sikhs but its directly related to muslims.

[Mr §ingh]

TAksaal uses this quote to say that kesh is compulsion on:

http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat_13.htm

1. Kesh

From your head down to your toes all hair is to be kept intact.

…swbq sUriq dsqwr isrw]

"…complete form is with turban donned."

(SGGSJ Ang 1084)

Please forgive my ignorance

[Guest]

Singh ji, What are you waiting for? You might want to post this on their forum and ask for feedback? Its not bad to learn something new.

[BabbarSher]

"The point of making this thread is simple. Guru ji didn't use that phrase for sikhs but its directly related to muslims."

But the Message of Gurbaani is Universal (Holds true for all people)....we cant separate one part from the another....... otherwise a lot of Gurbaani would be restricted to Hindus or Muslims.....

[Guest]

Yes, it is but you didn't get the point yet. We should not use Gurbani out of context. We can easily say that Guru ji telling muslims to keep sabat soorat as per their religion and we should be sabat soorat as per our religion. But we should not try to distort meanings of Gurbani by saying Guru ji is giving this message to Sikhs.

[BabbarSher]

There is no question of Saabat Surat as per muslim religion. It is a sikh concept.

[Guest]

Truth hurts but then at the end its truth.

Regards,

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

I urge all to re-read the shabd and consider its context and Serjinder Singh's comments more authentically. The shabd makes use of the symbology of a Moghul Darbar, however as we know Gurbani is addressing all, not just a particular person or sect or Panth.

As such, I concur with Serjinder Singh, that the Shabd has nothing to do with the Khalsa Rehit requirement to maintain Kes per se. The reference to Kes and Dastaar are used to set the scence of the Darbar as elucidated in Serjinder Singh's comments.

I understand this is difficult for some to accept but whilst maintaining Kes is of paramount importance for Sikhs, these requirements are not related to this Shabd in such strict terms, we need to avoid pulling Shabds out of their original context to justify our individual thoughts.

Rehits clearly mention the requirement for Sikhs to maintain Kes and the Damdami Taksal rehit maryada even quotes from Guru Gobind Singh's writings about the matter if one needs a Shabd to verify this requirement.

The shabd here, however is not in the same reference and is one often manipulated y those insistent that the 5K's are a form of 'indentity' into not only indicating that the entire world should adopt Kes and Dastaar, but also that Dastaar equates to Keski as a Kakkar requirement for Women...these issues have been discussed at length elsewhere if anyone wishes to brush up on them...

Forgive my foolishness,

Niranjana

[Guest Javanmard]

There are specific rules about interpreting shabads and the context of these interpretations as given in Suraj Prakash Granth.

Taking a bani out of context, not knwoing the languages, historical and religious context and situation of the bani etc... is a very serious insult to gurbani.

there is simple too many people out there (mailny young birn again Singhs and retired ingeneers) who think that just being involved in Sikh societies makes them able to interpret gurbani.

study the languages, history etc.. first then only interpret bani!

[BabbarSher]

Truth wrote: "Truth hurts but then at the end its truth"

Context please ? If you r referring to yourself, you dont hurt me one bit..but it seems like a remark made by a Site Admin, not by a neutral moderator.

You have not answered my question, yet given a cryptic response.

I think all historical records...if i am not wrong were very aptly questioned by a lot of sikh scholars and intellecutals and their accuracy questioned.

A lot of these historical records also contain a lot of 'non-sikhi' things which are not in line with our religion. How then can young sikhs be convinced that kesh ..requirement given in these records is requirement of sikhi? Perhaps the experts here would care to explain.

How do you then proove that in sikhism the importance of Kesh as an external rehat is prime ? Rehantnamas? they dont concur on a lot of things...which do you adopt and which do you drop out?

If our present Guru, Guru Granth Sahib is silent on kesh, why do we need to keep it? If Guru Granth Sahib only deals with spirtuality and matters of the inner soul, why do we need to keep an external rehat be it any of the five K's. In essence what we are highlighting is that sikhism is internal rehat nothing external about it.

Anyway a lot of people on this forum refer again to young born sikhs, and bla blah blah.......as if they themselves are scholars par excellence. They have load of suggestions for others which they need to apply to themselves.

I dont know what to say if the interpretation of the Shabd by Prof. Sahib Singh is taken out of context.

Please remember that sikhism has a unique feature: Guru Granth Sahib , compiled by the Gurus themselves --- and hence it is a most authentic source.

The rest of the Granths about sikhism were written after a long time and are suspect with respect to their accuracy and prone to adulteration much like the religious books and traditions of other religions.

Niranjana:

When I say that Guru Maharaj's message is Universal, The concept of Sabat Surat applies to all people...not a particular communiity. I have never said that Guru Maharaj is not referring directly to Muslims, yet the essence of the message is for all.....people.

I am not referring to the AKJ interpretation of the Shabad.

[Guest]

Actually, recently I thought of changing my name to truth but that line I've written is not reffering to my name. I've come to conclusion which I have expressed this about this particular quote from Gurbani after reading others meaning and comments and they were convincing to me. I don't belong to any jatha so feel free to make it more clear so I and others can learn more.

Also, Babbarsher ji, Let me tell you this that if I hold admin rights on this site then it doesn't make me a "big boy" and im same as other members. This site is running on the shoulder of scholars and intellecutals like you and others the ones visit and share their time and knowledge.

Is it must to convince youth for everything? Please read this discussion.

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/youth.nsf/3...28!OpenDocument

[BabbarSher]

Dear Truth,

Sorry for misunderstanding you. I am not an intellectual....what I have gained is from reading my fathers books and the questions that have come back to me again and again due to a variety of reasons. I had started reading a lot of books by the real sikhs scholars, even when I could only understand them in parts. I hjave tried to keep up with literature as and when I get the time.

This site runs on the shoulders of other people...sme of them agree with my view...som dont......but I admire all of them. Maybe under my ego..i may have gone overboard sometimes. At other times I have thought whether is is wise to do 'behas', whether this would discourage the young ones from coming to the forum. I have thought whether I sound egoistic at times....harping on my own way of thinking...why I even thought of quitting the forum altogether.

Believe me, I have had some lengthy discussions with a lot of people. I have had personal experiences and have thought on different lines including the one that has been advocated on this post.

I have had females questioning Kesh. (sikhs females)....I even have had enticing offer..to join the crew of non turbaned sikh youth from these very females. I have had question being put up by my young cousin on kesh. I have overheard gals on what they wopuld prefer in man..w.r.t. kesh.

Maybe this had a temporary negative effect on me, but I grew out of the same....and I have given thought to the Kesh question again and again.

I have seen people shun 'clean shaven' youth on forums but at the same time praising Gujrati Sehajdharis including some renowned Professors in the US who wer founders of AISSF.

I have heard and read contradictory remarks in the Historical manuals that were metnioned in the posts as authority on sikhism (I am not referring to SurajPrakash Granth specifically). for e.g.

And believe me I am not partial to any Jatha or any group. I am almost sick of them for complexiying our simple religion. For e.g. the Sikh Missionaries (and I a do admire them) quote from an old Granth about the importance of Kesh. Yet in the same breath they quote a couple which has Guru Gobind Singh Ji says that

Dhare Kesh Bin Pahul, Bhekhi Mooda sikh, Meri Darshan nahin tis.......

ie. the fool who has kept hair without Amrit is a showoff. He will not have my darshan.

Telle me than that in light of the above quotation where do the Keshadhaari sikhs of today stand. Should they think of themselves as bhekhi?

The point I am saying is that these parchine Granths will not stand the test of time. They will be questioned and fall apart.

Guru Granth sahib on the other hand is our Guru. The Baani in it is Atal. It is not dependent upon the parameters of time. Hence in my view it contains what to do w.r.t/. spirit in order to reach God as well as some general pointers on the physical aspect of prime importance in sikhism, as well.

I dont belive that my Guru will be silent on such an important issue. Surely the Guru would give us some guidance on such an important issue, as in case of using drugs and narcotics.

I visited the link you have given. but a simple question any youth would ask me is ....Where has Guru Ji written that we should keep Kesh?

This is a simple question and lets have a simple answer.

I am not asking Why...if my Guru says something, we as sikhs cannot and must not question that. If we do, we are not sikhs of the Guru.

I hope I have been clear now.

Sorry if i was rude or hurt anyone with my remarks.

[Guest]

Dhare Kesh Bin Pahul, Bhekhi Mooda sikh, Meri Darshan nahin tis.......

ie. the fool who has kept hair without Amrit is a showoff. He will not have my darshan.

Telle me than that in light of the above quotation where do the Keshadhaari sikhs of today stand. Should they think of themselves as bhekhi?

The point I am saying is that these parchine Granths will not stand the test of time. They will be questioned and fall apart.

I know you have a great knowledge. But I would like to ask you this question if you have read the full paragraph of "Dhare Kesh Bin Pahul, Bhekhi Mooda sikh, Meri Darshan nahin tis......."? if not can you find out about it? Please, post it here. I have that book from missionary college " Basic principles of Sikhs" too.