Stigmata

[Pheena]

has anyone seen this movie. i usually don't like to use movies to explore a religion but this one caught my eye, as in the end of the movie it actually states that there was a scroll taht was found written in Aramaic the language of jesus.

Throughout the movie the first few lins of the scrolls is repeated andit goes someting like this.

"The heaven of god is within you, look under a rock im there, split a piece of wood you will find me"

that statment disapproves few concepts in christianity as they refer to god as a Painter to a Painting. That he is not present here but somewhere else in controll.

So if anyoen has any more info on what im talking about please do share.

Waheguru

[Hari]

I have seen Stigmata.I believe the quote attributed to Jesus goes something like: "The kingdom of God is within you and all around you.Look under a rock...".Something like that.

Now my eye is upon "Christianity".

[tSingh]

I think that is the infamous quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls...John Cage used that quote to argue that there is no such thing as 'East' and 'West'.

[Guest]

I loved that movie... watched it few times

[Pheena]

i think ur right hari, it did went like that. thanks for clarifying..

jtsingh, would u have ne info onthose dead sea scrolls....i tried to write down the info they gave after the movie, but since it was on t.v they went thru it pretty fast. Didn't have time to catch everything.

BTW i had a 4 hour discussion with an Engineer of mine at work last week. From takling with him, i have one thing to say that Christianity n sikhism have allot more things in common than we tend to believe, besides the obvious differences. It actually shocked me of the things he said to me and im thinking to myself that he actually came to the same conclusion as i did thru Sikhism.

Im going to share few of his points that he brought some other time.

[Hari]

I found this on the Dea Sea scrolls:

http://www.gnosis.org/library/dss/dss.htm

[Pheena]

I found this that shows 2 arguements, this one is in the bible.

KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU

Preterists often use Luke 17:21 to defend the spiritual nature of the kingdom:

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God

should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with

observation: {21} Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of

God is within you.

I agree with the phrase "within you" in favor of "in your midst" as some translations read.

One person wrote me concerning this issue:

“Ward, would a better translation of this passage be "The Kingdom of God is among you" or "The Kingdom of God is in your midst", otherwise I believe, the reader is left with the impression that the Pharisees already had the Kingdom of God in them. I don't think this was possible or maybe they just didn't recognize the Kingdom of God truly in them. I think, the better understanding of this passage is that Jesus is and represents the Kingdom of God and the Pharisees didn't recognize or understand this.”

Well, it is very possible as God frequently said that He would set His kingdom "

in the midst of the heathen...etc." However, I have some arguments against the "in your midst" translation: First, consider these passages:

"John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

We typically interpret this as God dwelling in us.

Also, Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, That seems to be a theme in NT soteriology:

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Again, "in them" seems to be the regular NT motif regarding God dwelling with His people. After all, we are the Temple and God dwells in the Temple or the Church. Also, He is the Husband of the bride. The Husband dwells in the bride in the most intimate sense of the word. And two more:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, So then, that is my first argument, i.e. the frequency with which that theme is carried out in the NT within writings after Christ's ascension.

My second argument:

The objector wrote:

"Ward, would a better translation of this passage be "The Kingdom of God is among you" or "The Kingdom of God is in your midst", otherwise I believe, the reader is left with the impression that the Pharisees already had the Kingdom of God in them. I don't think this was possible or maybe they just didn't recognize the Kingdom of God truly in them.”

Certainly I do not believe the kingdom of God was in the Pharisees. I have two examples to explain why Jesus used this term.

First, an analogy would be like this:

Suppose I ride the highest rollercoaster in the world. How would I describe it? It would be something like this: "When you ascend to the top of the rollercoaster, suddenly you realize that you are climbing hundreds of feet above the city-all you can see is an ocean of buildings, streets, houses, trees...then you no longer hear the clicking of the chain dragging you to the top...your breath stops...and then it happens...the rollercoaster begins to shoot down the track at speeds in excess of 70mph. Your stomach climbs into your throat, you gasp for air...etc."

You get the idea. Christ was doing exactly what many of us do when trying to convey a thought in language the people can understand. Did he ever speak this way elsewhere?

John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

But consider the audience:

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

This same audience left Jesus Christ:

John 6:65-66 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. {66}

From that time many of his disciples went back,

and walked no more with him. In other words, my point is that just because Christ uses language with second person plural pronouns

does not necessitate that the audience to which He was speaking were the actual recipients of any given blessing. Rather, many times he was merely describing the nature of some aspect of the kingdom.

Also (and this could be the strongest argument)...

The Pharisees had a natural or physical interpretation of the kingdom. Christ was constantly showing them that the nature of the kingdom was spiritual. The Pharisees asked:

"When will the kingdom of God come." What was Christ's response? The same as usual: He first corrected their interpretation of the

nature of the kingdom.

"The kingdom of God does not come with observation, neither will they say *see* here or *see* there, for behold the kingdom of God is within you." within

Everyone knew that the kingdom had not come, for both John the Baptist and Christ had both said that the kingdom was "at hand," not present. Therefore, since the Pharisees were asking when, if Christ said it

was in your midst, they would not be corrected at all in their interpretation of the nature of the kingdom. Why? They understood it was yet future, and "in your midst" does not correct a nature problem at all, but "within you" definitely corrects a nature problem. In other words:

"When the kingdom of God comes, it will not come as you expect it, for the kingdom of God is a kingdom that is within you, not a physical kingdom."

Finally, the translations read:

21 nor will they say, "Look, here it is!' or, "There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is [15] in your midst.» 15= [15] Or within you NASB

21 nor will people say, `Here it is,' or `There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within [2] you." 2=2.21 Or among NIV

Young's literal: 21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Weymouth: 21 People will not be able to say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is! That is because the kingdom of God is inside you.' And of course the KJV: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the

kingdom of God is within you. I think there is far more evidence contextually, hermeneutically, and theologically to support that the

phrase "within you" is really speaking of Christ (the kingdom) dwelling in a person rather than in the midst of the person. This does not negate the fact that the kingdom is in our midst, nor does it negate the fact that the kingdom being in the midst of God's people is a truth taught in Scripture. It is. But the evidence leans toward the passage in Luke meaning "within you."

[Guest Javanmard]

One of the greatest saints of 20th century Catholicism, Padre Pio bore the stigmata of Jesus Christ.

here is a website http://www.padrepio.com/

[Hari]

One of the greatest saints of 20th century Catholicism, Padre Pio bore the stigmata of Jesus Christ.

here is a website http://www.padrepio.com/

Padre Pio has stigmata on his palms.The thing is that the nails would not have been hammered through Jesus's palms, but his wrists.

The body of any crucified person would not have stayed up if nailed through the palms of the hands.The weight of the body would've made the hands come off the cross.They nailed through the wrists, behind the meta-carpals (I think).This way the body stayed on the cross and didn't fall off.

So it looks like that Padre Pio suffered from a psychosomatic phenomenon.Otherwise he would've had stigmata on his wrists, not palms of hands.

[tSingh]

Padre Pio is reknowned for more than stigmata.

Other miracles that I know of include the account during the first world war (I think, could have been the second?) in which US fighter pilots flying back to base reported seeing a monk floating in air over the town they were sent to attack. The head of the squadren disbelieving what he had heard from all the pilots flew out himself and saw the monk floating above the town. Later after the war he returned to the town in question and asked about the incident. The people sent him to Pio who is recorded to have walked up to the person asking why he'd taken so long to return after the incident! Later on after his death (I think), a few thousand people publicly saw him floating over the town. Another miracle is that he was seen in monasteries in two separate parts of Italy at the same time by his monastic companions. You'll find his image for sale in many Catholic christian shops

[Guest Javanmard]

The stigmata are never to be considered as a criteria for sanctity in the Catholic Church. They are seen as a bonus. Padre Pio was saint of rare proportion immersed in long periods of meditation, helping many souls and converting many sinners to God. His devotion was extremely deep!

Also he used to be attacked by demins every Friday and used to get badly injured by the attacks!

[Guest]

Also he used to be attacked by demins every Friday and used to get badly injured by the attacks!

Something sant baba darshan singh ji dhakki sahib would also get by demons. He used to get badly injured as well by boot and praits

[Guest Javanmard]

The advantage with such cases in the Catholic Church is that they send atheist doctors to check the case to see if it is explainable through science or whether it remains unsolvable. Cases like Padre Pio, Marthe Robin and Mere Yvonne Aimee de Malestroit have been analysed by hundreds of doctors most of them leading authorities in their field. Thsi has to do with the fact that the Church does not like paranormal stuff at all. It prefers reason!