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Noor Ji,

you said:

^ Its stuff like this that sometimes makes me wonder why I'm practicing Sikhi when I am not even considered a Sikh. But yet still I believe so it doesnt matter what people say, still gets to me once in a while tho.

If you are praticing sikhi, then that doesnt apply to you. Since you are in the path of guroo maharaj choseen for us- Gursikhi Bhagti Marg. Then its all good. Bhai Gurdas verse doesnt apply to you, since you are preparing yourself for amrit in near future.

Bhai Gurdas verse only applies to people- who have no prem for guroo maharaj ji and those who havent taken steps towards vaheguroo ie- preparing oneself spirtually for amrit, doing bhagti, doing seeva, reciting gurbani etc.

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Noor, you do realise that the 10th Nanak was Guru Gobind Singh Ji and vica versa? Therefore, you have to accept His teachings as well. His Hukam is to take Amrit, if you dont obey your Guru's Hukam, what does that make you? Figure it out yourself. Atheists 'sprout up' because people are scared of committing to what they know is right. They make all sorts of apologies and excuses for it. There is no excuse for not taking Amrit, whatsoever. No one is expecting you to take it and become an amazing Rehat-vali Singhani, it takes time, and you dont just break it with few minor mistakes. If you keep away from the Bujjar Kurehits, you still have a chance to repent and make amends. You have no excuse not to take Amrit, bottom line.

Once again, I want to remind the Sangat of a Sakhi of Baba Nand Singh Ji. A 'Sikh' asked Babaji, why should we take Amrit if our hearts are pure? Babaji said, was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's heart impure when they took Amrit from the Punj?

Im sick of our Sikh sisters making a fuss about all these marriage issues when they cant even commit to being a Sikh and submitting to His Hukam.

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Noor, you do realise that the 10th Nanak was Guru Gobind Singh Ji and vica versa?

Yes

Therefore, you have to accept His teachings as well.

Have to accept? Since when did Sikhism become a religion where your forced to do things? And second of all, what makes you think I dont accept his teachings? Just because I dont agree with the marriage thing? Sorry but thats not gonna change, thats my personal belief and obviously now I can see theres no room in Sikhi for it.

His Hukam is to take Amrit, if you dont obey your Guru's Hukam, what does that make you? Figure it out yourself.

A non-Sikh? Your basically telling me I aint a Sikh. Alrite seen.

Atheists 'sprout up' because people are scared of committing to what they know is right. They make all sorts of apologies and excuses for it.

Scared of committing to God? Lol.. have you ever talked to a Sikh thats turned atheist? You make religion sound like something that needs to be forced into everyone's life.

There is no excuse for not taking Amrit, whatsoever.

I dont need an excuse. I just dont want to take amrit. When the day comes that I am ready spiritually to take it, I will.

No one is expecting you to take it and become an amazing Rehat-vali Singhani, it takes time, and you dont just break it with few minor mistakes. If you keep away from the Bujjar Kurehits, you still have a chance to repent and make amends.

What are 'Bujjar Kurehits' ?

You have no excuse not to take Amrit, bottom line.

So according to your above statement, a person should just take amrit wether they are ready for it or not. Because if they say they are not ready for it because of some reason, it just is an excuse right? I mean you would know yeh, because you can really tell whats going on with that person?

Once again, I want to remind the Sangat of a Sakhi of Baba Nand Singh Ji. A 'Sikh' asked Babaji, why should we take Amrit if our hearts are pure? Babaji said, was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's heart impure when they took Amrit from the Punj?

^ Works both ways.. vice versa.

Im sick of our Sikh sisters making a fuss about all these marriage issues when they cant even commit to being a Sikh and submitting to His Hukam.

I'm sorry but I did not find your post to be inspiring at all.

Hope you arent offended by any of my comments.. But you have to realise that not everyone is gonna view things from the same perspective.

I am trying to change my ways and trying to follow Sikhi.. but when I read or hear stuff like what you posted, it really puts me off .. and then I just want to carry on with practicing religion in my own way.

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Noor ji, one simple question?

are you doing any of these prepare yourself spirtually for amrit, doing bhagti (meditation on god's mantra), doing seeva, reciting gurbani (remebering god) ?

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Noor ji, one simple question?

are you doing any of these prepare yourself spirtually for amrit, doing bhagti (meditation on god's mantra), doing seeva, reciting gurbani (remebering god) ?

If going to the gurdwara, praying, the only time i can think of actually doin sewa is twice every yr for 3 days each time.. for the past 8 yrs, going to the nagar keertan (not to socialize but for religious purposes), and learning more about sikhi count... then yes, I am spiritually growing.

But if it doesnt count for you all.. then forget this.

I dont drink, smoke, go clubbin, dont spread hate, dont believe in the caste system.. The only thing I probably do that you would disagree with is view people of all religions to be equal and the fact that I dont think marrying one of them is wrong.. oh and the other thing--> I havent taken amrit yet.

Funny thing is Muslims stand united even if some are very religious and others are just called Muslim because they were born into a Muslim home.. and here we have Sikhism (which is supposed to be more accepting) in which Sikhs are telling others who is and isnt a Sikh.

Well anywayz...

Each to his own --> I'll follow my beliefs and you to yours.

Good day :)

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Sikhi is a SuperHighway and travelling on this Superhighway, you reach the city of the Khalsa ...whereafter you meet Waheguru.

Firstly I fully understand that you are not marrying a a non-sikh, as you had mentioned the same in one of yor earlier posts.

^Finally! ..thnx

Perhaps I have a possiveness about the gals of my religion :-)

^ Understandable

Secondly, I have tried to proove that inter religion marriages are not 'right', because of differences in religions on various respects.

I think it is true.

You say that you stand by what you say. Good. But can you please answer the issues and the possible solutions to what I said in my post?

^If the other person thinks just as you do, then where would the problem arise? And any that do, can be taken care of. Life is filled with problems and difficulties, do we back down from them? In one way or another we have to face them.

(Done give me the obvious answer ..that Love can transcend all barriers)

^ Love can. Afterall isnt it love for God that makes a Sikh able to stand up against any thing? That kind of love is hard to find these days. As far as that kind of love between two individuals is concerned, society's rules and demands has or eventually does kill it, but then again that just implies that it was weak to begin with.

Dont be disheartened, Mr.Singh's or my heart may be a bit small to accomodate a lot of people into Sikhi, but the Guru's and Waheguru's heart is very large.

I dont agree with the translation provided by Mr.Singh.

One cannot take Amrit by force, the feeling has to come from within.

^ Yeh completely agree with you there.

Continue on this path and evolve. Like I said, a sikh must continually evolve into a better person, and then he is a sikh, because he is learning the teachings of his Guru and acting on them.

Evolving is the key word here. A person may be a mona at birth, keep hair whne young and take amrit when he/she is 40. So does it make he/she a sikh. Definately does, cause they evolved.

^Agree

On the other hand a person may be born a kehsadhari, become a mona or remain like that. I dont think such a person qualifies to be a sikh.

^But we cant really judge now can we? Only God can judge because only He knows all.

Some people may take amrit but may keep believing in Bipran Ki Reet? What of them.....?? Nothing of them I would say... Nothing

^ Whats Bipran Ki Reet?

Various such permutations can combinations may be worked out and some may be very tricky situations. But in the end it is for the Guru to decide and for Waheguru to decide on the question if sikhi, who sits in every persons heart....we can only give pointers

In effect when we have read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have understood it, our conscience will ourselves give an answer, whether we are sikh or not. and belive me you cant fool your consicence.

^ very true

My suggestion as always is to read your Guru. Please dont treat Guru Granth Sahib as just a Holy Book. Guru Ji is our present and eternal Guru. Please have the same feelings for Guru Ji as you would for Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Do so and the Guru will guide you ...Please give it a try :-)

^ I have total respect for Guru Granth Sahib ji

N30 Singh ...Very Good :-) excellent explanation

There you go.. replied to it all.

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If going to the gurdwara, praying, the only time i can think of actually doin sewa is twice every yr for 3 days each time.. for the past 8 yrs, going to the nagar keertan (not to socialize but for religious purposes), and learning more about sikhi count... then yes, I am spiritually growing.

But if it doesnt count for you all.. then forget this.

I dont drink, smoke, go clubbin, dont spread hate, dont believe in the caste system.. The only thing I probably do that you would disagree with is view people of all religions to be equal and the fact that I dont think marrying one of them is wrong.. oh and the other thing--> I havent taken amrit yet.

Funny thing is Muslims stand united even if some are very religious and others are just called Muslim because they were born into a Muslim home.. and here we have Sikhism (which is supposed to be more accepting) in which Sikhs are telling others who is and isnt a Sikh.

Well anywayz...

Each to his own --> I'll follow my beliefs and you to yours.

Good day :)

Noor ji. Thanks for your response.

By things you do and compare the teachings of siri guroo granth sahib ji you defo a sikh because you following the path (growing more spirtuality) but still a "nirgura" because a you havent intiated in khalsa way of life.

Nirgura- Nirgura is a person who doesnt have a guroo (Doesnt matter if you are christian, muslim , hindu). Gurbani itself mentions about nirgura openly. Nirgura has no place in this world and after the world.

Nirgura word be applied in various relegion. Because various relgeions provides some sort of intitation into its teaching.

Note: I ll get you references from sggs ji regarding Nirgura.

Now the point you made about being born into sikhi household automatically makes you one can be easily refuted if we look at the life of guroo nanak dev ji.

Guroo nanak dev ji was born in hindu household but he wasnt hindu. Because he rejected all the pratices of hindu dharma. If guroo nanak sahib himself wasnt hindu even though he was born in hindu household then how can we dare to say "i m a sikh" just because i m born in a sikhi household.

You are in great path.. Please keep it up... But do consider as your spirtuality grows to get rid of ego and follow guroo's hakum which is to take amrit. Thats all i have to say...

I appolize if it seems like i m putting you down. Normally as i have one nirgura freind in real life though he is spirtually aware. I have this discussion with him all the time where he understands my point without even once thinking that i m puttin him down. I hope it sames with you. Please dont think i m putting any one down. I m just tryin to make things clearer for you.

Akaaaaaaaaaaal hiiiiiiiiiii akaaaaaaaaal

anand hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii anand

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Guest Punjabi Nationalist

If going to the gurdwara, praying, the only time i can think of actually doin sewa is twice every yr for 3 days each time.. for the past 8 yrs, going to the nagar keertan (not to socialize but for religious purposes), and learning more about sikhi count... then yes, I am spiritually growing.

But if it doesnt count for you all.. then forget this.

Noor, no one can tell you what you are or what you are not, and you especially do not need anyone's approval for doing what you wish to do with your own life.

If you dont want to take Amrit that is your choice and people should learn to accept and respect it. Similarly, if you want to marry a non-Sikh then other people shouldnt have a problem with that either. You make your own choices in life and you alone answer for them.

Each to his own --> I'll follow my beliefs and you to yours.

Id say follow Sikhism or at least learn from it and try to apply its teachings to your everyday life. That doesnt mean blindly conform to and follow things you dont agree or believe in but im sure there is alot in the religion you can learn from.

Just because some random Sikhs on the internet want to disown you doesnt mean that you should disown Sikhism.

Keep in mind that there are members here who have been born and brought up in large Sikh communities in England or Canada where they have lived their whole life. From reading the posts of certain people it is easy to tell that they know little or nothing about life outside that small patch of earth they exist on. These are the ones who are most unwilling to accept a difference of opinion and think themselves as Noor-e-Jahan.

I think you can learn alot from people like Niranjana and lalleshvari. I dont know where they live but i assume they are like me and live in a place where there are literally no other Sikhs, so have been spared from all this petty judgmental, caste, two-faced, double standards, sheep mentality crap.

The Admin is another good guy.

Sat Sri Akaal.

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PN, I want you know that we are not telling Noor what to do or what you are.. as you claimed below.

Noor, no one can tell you what you are or what you are not, and you especially do not need anyone's approval for doing what you wish to do with your own life.

We are just showing her the way. If she thinks that we are puttin her down then thats wrong. She by any means, can discard whatever we told you and follow her own mind which would qualify as (Man-Mat) instead of (Gur-mat) .

Man-mat = Following one's mind.

Gur-Mat- Following Guroo's Hakum by dropping one ego and doubts with full fatih.

I for one, strongly doesnt beleive in spoon-feeding someone. This is a discussion forum where she asked for views and we try our best to give her our views according to sikhi beleifs. She has to make up her mind, not we literally forcing her. It looks she is on great path already but i told her to consider to take amrit at some point in her life. I said "Consider" and never said "Should" "Have to" "Must"!

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Also i found writing of harpreet to be very true. If you can read it. By the way Harpreet is from sikhawareness and its not amrit-dhari yet but he understands this concept.

So, in Japuji Sahib Ji Guru ji makes numerous references to 'Sunnai', Guru ji often stresses the important of listening( to the guru) and subbmitting to his hukam(some people consider this to be 'cosmic law')and becoming a slave help us listen! In fact Guru Ji takes this a step further, he offers us the secret to achieve this, to put it simply, drop your ego and you will be able to listen and submit to hukum!

So how does this link in with Amrit? Well, many consider it to be a gift, in the sense that when taking Amrit you are accepting death( to your ego), you effectively chop your head off and place it aside.

Only then you feel the full fruit of Guru's teachings, why?

Because once you chop your head off and place it aside only then can you truly listen

So you could say that AMRIT IS UNIQUE AND A GIFT FROM GURU JI! and its designed to act as a ego basher!(Although it had adverse effect on some Amritdharis - mainly due to lack of understanding of gurubani)

Furthermore, in my opinion, i think TRUE AMRIT occurs for people who have love for Guru Ji(now in the form of Guru Granth Sahib Ji). They read and absorb bani, and think to themselves WOW!(waheguru), they fall in love with Guru Ji!

When you fall in love with someone you may notice that when they are present your focus is entirely on them! you dont even think about yourself because they are sooooo beautiful! Similary, people fall so much in love with guru ji that they begin to forget about themselves, their ego drops, hence the THIRST FOR AMRIT GROWS, they WANT TO GIVE THEIR HEAD !!!

'Oh Waheguru,dispeller of darkness, i love you! I dont care about me! im a blind child without your guidance! TAKE MY HEAD PLEASE'

Guru Ji's gift!!!! and we are considering it to be a chore!!

We are considering it to be an Issue a BURDEN!!!

THAT IS OUR PROBLEM - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! True Amrit is the key to success(spiritual) in Kalyug!!!!! AND WE SIKHS HAVE GURU JI and AMRIT!!!

IF HE ASKS US TO KEEP HIS HAIR SO WHAT THE HELL!!! ALL THE FRUITS HE HAS GIVEN US, HE AS NEVER TURNED HIS BACK ON US!!!! DO YOU THINK HE WOULD EVER DO SOMETHING DETRIMENTAL TO US!!! NO!!!

PS IM NOT A AMRITDHARI and feel hurt when people(who havebeen forced to take amrit) make it seem like a chore! how can you force people to take amrit! CAN YOU FORCE SOMEONE TO LOVE SOMETHING! NO

THAT IS ANOTHER PROBLEM; so we N30 Singh we

have lackof understanding of BANI

Results in Lack of understanding in Amrit

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Well to be frank, now that I think about it, the whole point of this discussion is funny.

Noor asked us a question, Is it wrong to marry a non-sikh? Question is why did she ask it..was it because of a doubt in her mind, on the correctness of the action or as it because she wanted to know the views if the people here.

In either case, we have made know our views and I believe that should suffice. I dont also understand why Noor is now admant on saying again and again that marrying a non-sikh for a sikh is all right.

Well Noor, simply put, if you think it is OK, it is Ok , BUT only in your eyes or in the eyes of likeminded people.

But really it is funny that if something like inter religion was so right, why any of our sikh ancestors never married aoutside the religion. Anyway just a point to ponder....

I am not trying to convince you, but since you started the discussion, it would be worthwhile to provide the other viewpoints as well.

Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ?

Secondly who do you think is a sikh?

Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................?

Now as far as the respone to y post goes, my answers are as follows:

You say that you stand by what you say. Good. But can you please answer the issues and the possible solutions to what I said in my post?

^If the other person thinks just as you do, then where would the problem arise?

<<either a person's beliefs are religious or they are aethistical? Please clarify this statement. A muslim (whatever anyone may say). cannot say on the one hand La Ilaaha....and on the other hand bow before Guru Granth Sahib Ji......The person would be contradicitnghim/herself (on the point of Mohammed being the last prophet)

So can you please clarify? what the similarity in thoughts is all about ?? >>

And any that do, can be taken care of. Life is filled with problems and difficulties, do we back down from them? In one way or another we have to face them.

<,I understand that all problems can be taken care of. Now if you can just give me some possible fix to the problem samples given, that would be great. It would help the cause of all people with interreligion marriages>

(Done give me the obvious answer ..that Love can transcend all barriers)

^ Love can.

Love between a Boy and Gal on the true level is hard to find, as I have stressed. How many Heer Ranjha's can u make me count in the billions that live today ??

Afterall isnt it love for God that makes a Sikh able to stand up against any thing? That kind of love is hard to find these days. As far as that kind of love between two individuals is concerned, society's rules and demands has or eventually does kill it, but then again that just implies that it was weak to begin with.

<Thats what I am syaing. First True Love isnt weak. If it is weak, it never was true. So if it wasnt true, it is not worth the effort, NOR can it help you overcome the problems, cause it never was true.

NOTE: You are NOT a Nirgura if you belive in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the other Gurus. You are on the path of sikhi.

My defination of a sikh is person who is evolving and it stands.

Basically a sikh would be a person, who is a keshadhari, has belief in all the eleven Gurus, does not follow Bipran Ki reet (Brahmnical karam kaands, idoltaory etc.) and who is willing to become an amritdhaari (that is a person who is who is progressing towards amrit), reads, understands and practices baani in his life, meditates on Lord. (all of these have to hold true...you cant take one out and keep the other).

If one does as above, he/she is a sikh.

If one does not qualify as above, they are a sikh - in a socialogical sense. But doesnt mean they are outcast, as long as they are willing to admit their mistakes and revert back to sikhi.

For e.g. there are many young ones, who may become monas, because of peer pressure, grlfriends, boy friends whatever...etc. but I wouldnt kick them out of our religion. These people need to know about what they really are and why they should revert back. They need love, NOT rebuke.

If they dont want to even learn or evolve, anytime in the future they are more like bats - neither here nor there , and I dont think they would qualify as sikhs.

BabbarSher - Quote:

Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ?

Secondly who do you think is a sikh?

Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................?

Yes I want your answer on this issue, as I want your answrs on what has been addressed in my post.

Lets not play 'golmol'...I also asked you for some solutions as well. It would be good to hear from you on the same as well.

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Funny thing is Muslims stand united even if some are very religious and others are just called Muslim because they were born into a Muslim home.. and here we have Sikhism (which is supposed to be more accepting) in which Sikhs are telling others who is and isnt a Sikh.

Used to think the same. Then I realised they are just as divided as we are. Actually even more so, the hatred between Arabs, non-Arabs, Somalians, you wouldn't believe it.

I didnt write my reply to be inspiring, the Gurbani should be inspiring to you. Its just such a shame that people who know the things our Shaheeds went through to maintain Sikhi are willing to throw it all away because 'they can do it their way' and 'no one should tell them what to do'. Why? 'cause they are all grown up and have a right to be in love, not knowing the love which lasts is higher than bollywood romances with guys of other faiths, I wonder whether our Guru's did the same? I just wonder at the naivety of these girls who think life is going to be all rosy and happy, but get a great big shock when kids come along and they don't know whether to circumcise them, make them wear Janeyoo, or send 'em off to Sunday school at the local Church, while telling them to take Amrit (when they start getting out of control) which they never took themselves, because anyone else who says it is the Guru Ji's Hukam is a petty, judgmental person who should let others live their own lives, despite the fact that this girl has posted on a FORUM on which it is generally acceptable to post views and opinions. :roll:

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I aint stopping you from posting your views am I now. :roll: Its such a shame that some people are so closed minded and go around making judgements on others when really they have no right to judge. I could make quite a few comments of what I think of such people, but naw allow it :roll:

And I dont know how many times I have to make it clear that this isnt bout me and some non-Sikh guy.

And bout all this crap that you guys are on about Sikh and non-Sikh marriages and the problems they lead to... well I'm telling you they work cuz I've seen them work. Marriage between a Muslim and a Sikh..it works... between a Catholic and a Sikh.. works. And the kids arent out of control. Theyre parents are actually more strict than most Sikh parents.

BabbarSher -

Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ?

Secondly who do you think is a sikh?

Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................?

I can tell you the answers from a Nirgura's view.. since I am not a Sikh .. u still want me to answer?

(and NO N30 Singh..u didnt offend me or put me down.. I do understand what your saying)

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Noor, no one can tell you what you are or what you are not, and you especially do not need anyone's approval for doing what you wish to do with your own life.

If you dont want to take Amrit that is your choice and people should learn to accept and respect it. Similarly, if you want to marry a non-Sikh then other people shouldnt have a problem with that either. You make your own choices in life and you alone answer for them.

True.. but its sad isnt it, when you've identified yourself by a certain religion and then you have people of that same religion telling you that you dont belong. But man I stand by my views and if in the end theyre wrong then I'll have to answer for them, but I have enough faith in what I believe to do so.

This is because typical Punjabi mentality is such that it fools us all into thinking we are natural-born leaders. Many Sikhs seem to have been unable to ditch this trait. Instead, you get Sikhs always telling other people they are wrong and will fight over minor opinions and differences (You can find examples of this on this forum).

While people are too busy judging and criticizing other people they are completely oblivious to their own faults. You know what im talking about when i say no one will backchat against you more than another "Sikh", no one will try harder to compete against you than another "Sikh", and no one will be quicker to wash their hands of you than another "Sikh". (I put Sikh in inverted commas because these are Sikhs in name bt not substance)

There is very little unity among Sikhs anywhere in the World. You can see it in Sikh politics and you can see it in the way other Sikhs behave with you.

So true..and I honestly believe that if the amritdhari Sikhs would unite and recognize the other 'Sikhs' as also part of Sikhism.. and not divide it by 'oh I'm a real Sikh cuz I took amrit and your not even a Sikh cuz you havent' .. then Sikhi would really grow and you would have more people actually turning to it.

But no one wants to be a part of something where they aint wanted.

Ps, No one has bothered to address the issue about Noor's parents attitude regarding marriage to a "Jatt Sikh" only. First of all, there is no such thing as a "Jatt Sikh". Jatt is a caste, there is no belief in "castes" in Sikhism, therefore someone who identifies as a "Jatt" cannot be a Sikh at the same time. That would like be saying i dont believe in Allah but im a Muslim. Its just a huge contradiction.

Anyway, this "Jatt Sikh" thing is just another point that confirms Noor's comment about lack of unity among Sikh communities.

^ I believe that the 'jatt' issue doesnt matter as much to my parents personally as does the issue of what other Sikhs (society) may think if their daughter was to marry a non-jatt. They seem to care too much of what others will think, and it annoys me but I cant change anything.. can only make sure that when I have kids I dont do the same thing.

Id say follow Sikhism or at least learn from it and try to apply its teachings to your everyday life. That doesnt mean blindly conform to and follow things you dont agree or believe in but im sure there is alot in the religion you can learn from.

Just because some random Sikhs on the internet want to disown you doesnt mean that you should disown Sikhism.

No way am I giving up Sikhi just because other people think I dont belong. It just puts me off talking to them, but of course I wouldnt give up my beliefs because of a few comments.

Keep in mind that there are members here who have been born and brought up in large Sikh communities in England or Canada where they have lived their whole life. From reading the posts of certain people it is easy to tell that they know little or nothing about life outside that small patch of earth they exist on. These are the ones who are most unwilling to accept a difference of opinion and think themselves as Noor-e-Jahan.

I think you can learn alot from people like Niranjana and lalleshvari. I dont know where they live but i assume they are like me and live in a place where there are literally no other Sikhs, so have been spared from all this petty judgmental, caste, two-faced, double standards, sheep mentality crap.

The Admin is another good guy.

See thats the thing. Where I live there are loads of Sikhs.. but none of them have ever told me that I'm not a Sikh. But according to members of this forum, I dont think they would qualify to be called Sikhs because only half of them are amritdhari. And you know what the funniest thing is, an amritdhari Sikh looking down on you and then next contradicting his whole belief by making a comment that supports the caste system. :roll:

I dont know who the Niranjana guy is :? ..but I like yours and Lalleshvari's views. :) Theyre quite similar to mine.

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I was reading the Youth Q & A section on SIkhnet. Looks what I poped through -

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/youth.nsf/b...5400531fc0?Open

BAsically I think its a good response :)

bhull chukk maaf

GurFAteh

This was my response to that thread in another forum:

From what i have read from you folks, that one is only considered a Sikh ONLY if he/she has taken Amrit.

Now from what she has written she hasn't taken Amrit, then she is not a Sikh therefore it doesn't matter who she marries right?? because that Hukam only applies to Sikhs or does it still apply to those who are not or have the potential of being a Sikh?

OR

Is it so that ONLY a Sikh can marry infront of the Guru, if that is so, then ignore my above question. And according to that, She has no religion so therefore there is no need to worry about someone who isn't a sikh because she can't marry in front of the guru, but im sure it will still happen and if it does, it won't be real because she isn't a sikh???

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Pheena,

Even sehajdhari sikhs take amrit. Their amrit is different which is charan amrit from their murshad so they are not nirgura.

Also true sehajdhari sikhs wouldnt even dare to take last name "Singh" "Kaur" like punjabi youths which they dont deserve. Sehajdhari Sikhs have self-respect so they use their last name...

Without Guroo or murshad there is no mukhti... that is ishvari law... Bhrama putter(son) narth was a nirgura for soo many yrs.. he was like i m the son of creator (bhrama) i dont need a murshad to a sant/mahatama. Sant was like even if you are son of a creator without murshad there is no mukhti... please listen to suleman tape... that poor soul with 1000 yrs of suffering tells us again and again without murshad you wont get mukhti!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Here are nirgura words mentions in gurbani:

so ingurw jo mir mir jMmY ingury Awvx jwvixAw ]2]

so niguraa jo mar mar ja(n)mai nigurae aavan jaavaniaa ||2||

One who has no Guru, dies over and over again, only to be re-born. One who has no Guru continues coming and going in reincarnation. ||2||

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Maajh

117

____________________________

ingury kau giq kweI nwhI ]

nigurae ko gath kaaee naahee ||

There is no salvation for those who have no Guru.

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Aasaa

361

____________________________

siqgur bwJhu guru nhI koeI ingury kw hY nwau burw ]13]

sathigur baajhahu gur nehee koee nigurae kaa hai naao buraa ||13||

Without the True Guru, there is no Guru at all; one who is without a Guru has a bad reputation. ||13||

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Aasaa

435

____________________________

ijau ingurw bhu bwqw jwxY Ehu hir drgh hY BRstI ]1]

jio niguraa bahu baathaa jaanai ouhu har dharageh hai bhrasattee ||1||

Like the person who has no Guru, they may know many things, but they are cursed in the Court of the Lord. ||1||

Guru Raam Daas Ji

Raag Dayv Gandhaaree

528

____________________________

vrmI mwrI swpu n mrY iqau ingury krm kmwih ]

varamee maaree saap n marai thio nigurae karam kamaahi ||

Destroying the snake's hole, the snake is not killed; it is just like doing deeds without a Guru.

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Vadhans

588

____________________________

guru dwqw myly qw miq hovY ingury miq n kweI ]

gur dhaathaa maelae thaa math hovai nigurae math n kaaee ||

If one meets with the Guru, the Generous Giver, then he understands; those who have no Guru cannot understand this.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Sorath

635

____________________________

vfw dwqw gurmuiK jwqw ingurI AMD iPrY lokweI ]12]

vaddaa dhaathaa guramukh jaathaa niguree a(n)dhh firai lokaaee ||12||

The Great Giver is revealed to the Gurmukh; without the Guru, the world wanders in darkness. ||12||

Guru Amar Daas Ji

Raag Raamkalee

912

____________________________

pwTu pVY muiK JUTo bolY ingury kI miq EhY ]

paat(h) parrai mukh jhoot(h)o bolai nigurae kee math ouhai ||

He reads the scriptures, but tells lies; such is the intellect of one who has no guru.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maaroo

1013

____________________________

ibnu siqgur pic mUey swkq ingury gil jm Pwsw hy ]11]

bin sathigur pach mooeae saakath nigurae gal jam faasaa hae ||11||

Without the True Guru, the faithless cynics rot away and die. The noose of Death is around the necks of those who have no guru. ||11||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji

Raag Maaroo

1073

____________________________

hir kI Bgiq krih iqn inMdih ingury psU smwnw ]2]

har kee bhagath karehi thin ni(n)dhehi nigurae pasoo samaanaa ||2||

They slander those who worship their Lord; they are like beasts, without a Guru. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji

Raag Bhairao

1138

____________________________

kwlir bIjis durmiq AYsI ingury kI nIswxI ]

kaalar beejas dhuramath aisee nigurae kee neesaanee ||

The evil-minded ones plant their seed in the barren soil; such is the sign of those who have no Guru.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Malaar

1275

____________________________

koVI hoAw goip gur ingury qMqu n mMqu suKweI]

korree hoaa gop gur nigurae tha(n)th n ma(n)th sukhaaee||

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

32

____________________________

vis AwvY gurumMq spu ingurw mnmuKu suxY n soAw]

vas aavai guruma(n)th sap niguraa manamukh sunai n soaa||

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

34

____________________________

ingury quil n horu ko isrjxhwrY isriT aupweI]

nigurae thul n hor ko sirajanehaarai sirat(h) oupaaee||

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

34

____________________________

ingury lK n qul iqs siqgur srix n Awey]

nigurae lakh n thul this sathigur saran n aaeae||

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

34

____________________________

jo gur gopY Awpxw iqsu ifTy ingury srmwey]

jo gur gopai aapanaa this ddit(h)ae nigurae saramaaeae||

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

34

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Also true sehajdhari sikhs wouldnt even dare to take last name "Singh" "Kaur" like punjabi youths which they dont deserve. Sehajdhari Sikhs have self-respect so they use their last name...

I don't know if you're aware but the word Singh is not just synonimous to Sikhs but to many Hindus too. It existed even before the Gurus time. For example, VP Singh and Vijay Singh are not Sikhs.

Besides, who are you to judge who is a true Sikh and who isn't? FYI if I'm not mistaken 90% of Sikhs out there are 'monas'. Do you believe they don't contribute to Sikhism? Who are making the donations and upkeeping the name? Next time you're free you should attend Sunday mass at the local church. Beware, you'll be in for a shock when you see the number of former Sikhs who have denounced Sikhism and have embraced Christianity because of characters like you. Keep it up buddy and some day you'll be going to an empty temple and will probably only be filled with other 'Amartari' Sikhs like you. Then maybe you'll be happy?

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Besides, who are you to judge who is a true Sikh and who isn't? FYI if I'm not mistaken 90% of Sikhs out there are 'monas'. Do you believe they don't contribute to Sikhism? Who are making the donations and upkeeping the name? Next time you're free you should attend Sunday mass at the local church. Beware, you'll be in for a shock when you see the number of former Sikhs who have denounced Sikhism and have embraced Christianity because of characters like you. Keep it up buddy and some day you'll be going to an empty temple and will probably only be filled with other 'Amartari' Sikhs like you. Then maybe you'll be happy?

Can I ask where Neo said Money are not Sikhs? I read his post and he's not saying that at all. Why are you making assumptions? He said they are Sehajdhari Sikhs, which is true. So now we should stop encouraging people to keep their hair just because we need money for donations? Compromise on the Guru's teachings for money? If you carry on making any more personal remarks like that, purposefully distorting posts, you will get another warning.

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