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Names Sikhs must not forget


Insaaf Singh
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From "Who are the Guilty?" by PUCL.

1. HKL Bhagat-Minister of Information: released criminals from Shahdara Thana to kill Sikhs Said 'sher pinjaraye se nikal diya'

2. Babu Ram Sharma- right hand man of Bhagat: Led mobs on a motor-cycle with a megaphone.

3. Sajjan Kumar- Congress MP, now an MP again under Manmohan Singh's govt. : paid rs.100 and a bottle of liquor to each person involved in killing Sikhs

4. Lalit Makan- Now DEAD thanks to Kharkoo Ranjit Singh Gill- Congress Trade Union Leader: Gave rs. 100 and a bottle of liquor to killers, guided mobs while driving his car.

5. Dharam Das Shastri- Congress MP: Carried voters lists with him to identify Sikh houses; had criminals released as well

6. Jagdish Tytler, the man India's first "Sikh" PM made into a cabinet minister was Congress MP at the time: was instrumental in getting men released to kill Sikhs

7. Mahendra- right hand man of Dharam Das Shastri

8. Mangat Ram Singal: another right hand man of Dharam Das Shastri

9. Dr. Ashok Kumar: led mobs

10. Sukhan Lal Sood-Congress councillor: Provided petrol and addresses of Sikh homes to mobs. He later tried to cover up his actions by giving sweets to the victims.

11. Jagdish Chander Tokas-Congress I worker: led mobs

12. Ishwar Singh-Congress worker: led mobs in Sajjan Kumar's areas

13. Balwant Khokhar- Youth Congress (I) leader: instigated killing and looting

14. Faiz Mohammad- Youth Congress(I) leader: led mobs

15. Ratan- Youth Congress (I) leader: took part in violence and looting

16. Satbir Singh- Youth Congress (I) leader: brought bus-loads of mobsters to Guru Harkrishan Public school, they burnt school buses and parts of the school, he was involved in the looting and beating of Sikhs on the night of November 1

Others involved:

Rampal Saroj: Congress (I) worker, killed Gopal Singh, Ranjha Singh, Mekal Singh. Instigated mobs, raped Sikh women and burnt property.

Hari Ram Bhatti, police officer: Disarmed Sikhs in Sultanpuri. Killed Sikhs and had them shaven at gun-point.

Nur Jahan: Incited Muslims by spreading rumors that Sikhs were burning mosques.

Narendar Singh- Congress (I) worker

Salim Quereshi- Congress (I) worker

Shawkeen- Congress (I) worker

Malaram- Congress (I) worker

Dogra of Shakarpur: Congress (I) worker

Bhatia of Shakarpur: Congress (I) worker

Partap, pardhan of Sagarpur: killed 22 members of the family of Budh Singh near Janakpuri

On page 14 the study says "the hindu public by and large appeared to be in a mood that sanctioned such assualts" and "people stood on thier rooftops watching our houses burning, just as they do when observing Republic Day parade."

And now in 2004, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THESE KILLERS IS IN JAIL. Sikhs are now 'reconciling' their differences with Congress, voting these killers back to parliament, shouting "jai hind" and giving siropas to these killers. We should hand our heads in shame.

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Sardu wrote: "Whatever happened..but sikhs are here, sikhi is here.... thats victory and thats what should mean much. "

== Mod's Note: Your First point is edited. Please take personal issues over the pm=

2. Unfortunately, just surviving does not mean victory. Have you ever read any Sikh history? Sikhs in earlier times did not just roll over. But then again they didn't suffer from an overdose of Bollywood films like the Sikhs in India today.

3. You edited your post. Let me make something clear to you: the Indians supported the killers of Sikhs like Sajjan Kumar etc. by voting them into parliament. The Hindus had no problems voting in killers of Sikhs and freeing them from prison.

4. Being an Indian Sikh, your Punjabi is probably pretty bad since you are exposed to Hindi much more than your mother tongue. Do you understand what "Zidagi ghulami di nalon ankha di maut changi" means ????

5. After reading your previous unedited post (where you wrote Jai Hind), given your name 'sardu' and your attitude, I can see what sort of Sikhs vote for the Congress (I) elect traitors like DSGMC.

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Sardu wrote: "Whatever happened..but sikhs are here, sikhi is here.... thats victory and thats what should mean much. "

No, i don't read history. My point,here, was that we survived against all oods.. and today we have earned good reputation/respect. you look at bollywood films.. i look at prime minister, a former president, athletes, many cricket and hockey player, musician, singer, economists, army men, and many others.. who, instead of complaning, earned respect for the community. Mate, its just the differnece you look/analyze the situation.

its politics, and its not very clean. anyway, sajjan kumar might have won from a single constituency and doesnt represnt the nation.. many factors work behind one winning the election. Again, some thousand votes should not represent whole community.

Does that mean that every indian sikh would be comfertable in hindi more than punjabi? Mate, why do u set these rules/assumption? If u talk abt me.... after roaming around many parts.. my language no longer hindi, punjabi or english.. i would use words from hindi,punjabi, english, urdu, kannada, bangali, marathi.. to express myself.. we call it "hindustani language".. and yea, u r right its because of me being an Indian sikh. yes i do understand the meaning of that phrase... and believe me.. i do live up to that.. i don't live in a country where i need to publish my idendity on web sites..

right, i edited it because.. i did't want to sound offensive.. i don't believe in arguing and fighting with words anymore... I don't believe in balme-game and hate... I don't know you.. so i shouldn't hate you.. For me, by default you are dear to me, you are like brother..

I feel i did right, as u r hinting here that on reading my unedited post.. u felt offensive/wrong about me.. and thats exactly why i edited it. I dunno, i m right or wrong by your standards, but i believe .. life is more important than killing/death... love should be more imp that hate.. I can understand your rage/anger, but thats past.... that was a bad phase.. no one can bring back those lives.. but in my views, for true tribute to the saheeds, we should do somthing constructive.. and present/coming generation of other religions/beliefs should realize that what some of their ancestor did was wrong..

You are free to make any kind of assumption, however, i should tell you i am not into politics..and i have never voted. Also, I don't think.. any sikh would vote for those culprits..

if u question, Why are those culprits are free? i would say.. they made use of known flaws of laws.. like many other culprit.

Anyway, My whole point is that i didn't want to sound offensive.. you have your own reasons and arguments which are valid according to you. I am nobody to judge those views.. but i just wanted to suggest that we should try that those incident should no re-occur.

we have been given a very short life.. lets live it..peacfully and lovingly.

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Sardu wrote:

"No, i don't read history. My point,here, was that we survived against all oods"

Sikhs have survived against the odds because there have always been Sikhs who have been willing to fight against oppression. The first century after the founding of the Khalsa in 1699 was devoted largely to ensuring Sikh survival. It was not this passive attitude of "lets make peace with everyone" that kept Sikhism alive. One of the reasons the millions of Sikhs in India have become so passive and submissive is because they are totally ignorant of their glorious history. They know more about Bollywood stars than about Sikh heroes and that is one of the reasons why Sikhs have lost ground in the last 30 years or so.

".. and today we have earned good reputation/respect. you look at bollywood films.. "

Dude, most Bollywood movies mock Sikhs. Shah Rukh made some kind of Sardar joke in Kuch kuch hota hai...Johnny Lever regularly mocks Sikhs. There is a lot of evidence and written material that shows how Sikhs are consistently portrayed in a negative light in Bollywood. Personally, I prefer French and Japanese movies and I cannot understand how someone with a functioning brain would can even spend ten minutes watching Bollywood.

"i look at prime minister, a former president, athletes, many cricket and hockey player, musician, singer, economists, army men, and many others.. who, instead of complaning, earned respect for the community. Mate, its just the differnece you look/analyze the situation. "

Do you know how many German Jews were prominent before the rise of the Nazis to power?

Do you know that France even had a Jewish Prime Minister, Leon Blum, but this didn't affect anti-semitism in France?

Even if Sikhs reach prominence in India in certain spheres, this means absolutely nothing as far as human rights are concerned. And what have these prominent Sikh actors, atheletes, scientists and politicians done to protect the Sikh victims of India? Very little.

"its politics, and its not very clean. anyway, sajjan kumar might have won from a single constituency and doesnt represnt the nation.. many factors work behind one winning the election. Again, some thousand votes should not represent whole community."

There is evidence in works such as Who Are the Guilty by PUCL to suggest that the Hindu population did not have too many qualms about killing Sikhs en masse. And how many Hindus have protested the rise of Sajjan and Jagdish to power? How many of them have said that these criminals should be put in jail? The Hindus are awfully silent.

"Does that mean that every indian sikh would be comfertable in hindi more than punjabi? Mate, why do u set these rules/assumption?"

How many young Sikhs in Delhi or Chandigarh speak Punjabi better than Hindi?

"right, i edited it because.. i did't want to sound offensive.. i don't believe in arguing and fighting with words anymore... I don't believe in balme-game and hate... I don't know you.. so i shouldn't hate you.. For me, by default you are dear to me, you are like brother.. "

I don't know you and so I don't hate you. I know you are fellow Sikh and I regard you as one of my own...and of course despite my harsh language (thats the American in me :-) ) I mean you no harm. But the Sikhs in India have become misguided and are losing the chardi kala and as well as the defiant Sikh spirit. I just think you need to rediscover your roots and rich history...you will approach life with a fresher perspective.

"You are free to make any kind of assumption, however, i should tell you i am not into politics..and i have never voted. Also, I don't think.. any sikh would vote for those culprits.. "

Actually the Sikhs of Delhi voted in their former killers. And a prominent Sikh leader in Delhi, Prahlad Singh Chandok has shamed us all by giving Jagdish Tytler a siropa and a kirpan. The Sikh voters in Delhi and their leadership have done one of the most shameful deeds in the history of the Sikh faith.

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Actually the Sikhs of Delhi voted in their former killers. And a prominent Sikh leader in Delhi, Prahlad Singh Chandok has shamed us all by giving Jagdish Tytler a siropa and a kirpan. The Sikh voters in Delhi and their leadership have done one of the most shameful deeds in the history of the Sikh faith.

I am with you Insaaf Singh, and you are cordially invited to visit india and do the justice and if you can't, then do not make useless provocating statements. Sikhs have already suffered through such statements.

You are talking of Sikh history... Sikh history tells us puratan sikhs did not make statements but their acts made the statements. Do you have it in you to act upon your statements ?

Regards

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Insaaf Singh, there has been no insaaf for the Sikhs in the post partitioned India. Grievces are too many, atrocities are too many and must not be either forgiven or forgotton

Sardu, those who choose to forget their history repeat the same mistakes, and the mistake of the Sikhs are that they are Sikhs in India.

Sikh Philosophy, Insaaf Singh does not have to travel to India, he can inform, educate and campaign for Insaaf from any part of the World.

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Friend, Though, as i've already said, i m trying to avoid getting into these online/virtual arguments, still, just to make this a good discussion and to give a different prespective that yours.. i m writing ..

Sardu wrote:

"No, i don't read history. My point,here, was that we survived against all oods"

Sikhs have survived against the odds because there have always been Sikhs who have been willing to fight against oppression. The first century after the founding of the Khalsa in 1699 was devoted largely to ensuring Sikh survival.

I feel, to fight the oods, should not always mean, killing/revenge/guns/ etc.. Khalsa was founded in 1699 and used a different technique to fight the oods.. which was relevent and necessary that time. Sikhism existed before that.. still fighting the oods but with different techniques.

It was not this passive attitude of "lets make peace with everyone" that kept Sikhism alive.

mate, its demand of time.. seriously. we can't keep on fighting with fellow humans who are all same as we but born in the neighbourhood home, which have slightly differenet way of living the life. Yes, same holds ture for all religion etc. Sikhism is strong enough to survive without fighting/killings.. Peace and love for/with everybody can really be effective mantra in the present scenario.

One of the reasons the millions of Sikhs in India have become so passive and submissive is because they are totally ignorant of their glorious history. They know more about Bollywood stars than about Sikh heroes and that is one of the reasons why Sikhs have lost ground in the last 30 years or so.

I live in India and know many sikhs families persoanly .. I don't feel this is the case,.. yes we all know about bollywood but thats a different stage altoghter.. when it comes to religion and glorious history they are much more proud and informed.

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Guest Sardar Moderator Singh

Dear All,

I request that we please answer this question in full, the other aspects of this thread have been and are being discussed on other threads -re: Sikh History and the 1980's together with the politics of Indian life and culture.

The below mentioned relates to something that almost always gets ignored in these discussions, since it is raised, please could all (whatever your views on the wider matter) address this explicitly.

Thanking you.

Do u still feel/think that recalling the 20 yrs old unfortunate incident and to contineously suspecting my fellows who are non-sikhs will make my life better? Mate, You guys might be in a very different condition.. we stay in india.. here the next door neighbour is a hindu, in the front house a muslim family stays and right next to them is christian family from south india. They all stay on a single floor of the building, they ought to share happiness and sadness of each other. they all get excited seeing india winning a cricket match or they all are concerned about the corruption. Tell me friend what approach is better for us? What should be our priority.. if not love and peace? our work places have fellows from across the country. one has to work on a project as a team.. his boss may be a muslim, his boss may be a bangali and so on.. what "way" they are suppose to follow? Its a very different place my friend, its India.. we all have a short life which we have to live together.. either fighting and cursing or peacfully and supporting.. I advocate love,peache,harmony, understanding and respect for each other.

.

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I advocate love,peache,harmony, understanding and respect for each other.

Dear Sardu veerji,

I could not have put it in any better way than you did... Please accept my congrats... You have a big heart as a Sikh should have...:) Glad to know people like you around, through these forums.

Best Regards

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One question I would like to add to this discussion for sure. What are Sikh gurus teachings say about forgiveness? Are we allowed to forgive as per Sikh Gurus teachings or keep going forever? I think instead of listening to online preachers we should look for answers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee?

Also, have a look at following article and I would like to get some feedback from my online pro khalistan friends.

http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/terrorism/3.htm

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admin, I have seen this question raised many times but in 1986 a book was published entitled 'Constitution of Khalistan'. This book was published in Amritsar and it is a remarkable piece of work, especially considering it was published by what many people would class as 'a bunch of half educated terrorists' (not my view) and published in the most hostile of regions where the indian Govt had unleashed its rain of terror.

After having read the book i think there definately is a very clear vision of what Khalistan is and how it should be run and how the supposed state would function. If anyone is interested in reading this book i can lend it to them if they live in the Birmingham area of UK. I suggest all peoples who make comments such as Admins should read the book rather than post to Hindu Propoganda sites (i.e. punjabilok). It is also rather interesting to note that the authors quote Ram Narayan Kumar in there article, it is interesting to note they don't quote more of his work, 99.99% of which is critical of the Indian state. Again watch his video entitled: Dissapearances in Punjab.

And yes we should forgive IF AND ONLY IF the persons who attempted to carry out the genocide of the sikhs come forward and admit to their crimes and show sorrow, however we should never forget the past as that would be disrespectful to all those who have fallen due to the terror unleashed by the Govt sworn to protect them. We should learn from and not bury history.

I advocate love,peache,harmony, understanding and respect for each other.

A most noble undertaking but try saying that to the mother who has just had her son murdered by the Punjab Police just because he was amritdhari. Its all good to sit safely in 1st world countries and make statements like that but the facts on the ground mean this is very difficult to achieve. Also i don't think any1 would say u shud hate upon ur hindu, muslim and christian neighbours, i don't think even the most staunch khalistanis would say this. However that doesn't mean u shud turn a blind eye to history. Live your life, enjoy your neighbours, but discuss, talk about and inform about reality. I don't see why your hindu neighbours would start hating u just for standing up for human rights (unless they are of a biased background).

How can he do it by sitting next to a PC ? That even I can do... What so enlightening about it.

It highlights to all the readers on this forum how corrupt the indian Govt is and if that helps create awareness of the truth in the midst of the massive misinformation campaign by India it is a very very good thing. Also it is well known why people don't travel to india to do stuff like campaigning, look at the khalra case. A little hard to campaign when ur dead. Congratulations for trying Insaaf (even if i don't necessarily agree with all your views). Also SP u say not to make provocative statements but to carry out actions. Is making a statement or quoting a fact not a form of action. On the one hand u advocate peace but then challenge him to go to india and carry out 'actions'. There is nothing wrong with highlighting terrorism carried out by India.

And like i have stated before peace is a good ideal but when u r under attack and an attempted genocide is under way i have no problem with someone raising arms to defend themselves.

Seeing some of the previous statements in this thread regarding peace and sikhi perhaps someone would like to comment on the following statement by Guru Gobind Singh Ji:

[align=center:68d0020756]quote_ggsj.gif[/align:68d0020756]

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Guest Sardar Moderator Singh

Dear All,

I intervene again, as this is not a debate about Khalistan -there are plenty already going on relating to this topic. This thread relates primarily to the acts of violence and human rights violations meted out to Sikhs (and others) during the dark 1980s and the political characters associated with these crimes.

In the development of this thread, we have come across the issue that often is brushed under the carpet, the divergence of views of Sikhs living in Punjab, in Delhi and outside in the UK and US.

I have no problem with discussing Khalistani politics, but this thread is not concerning Khalistan per se, there are plenty others on this forum relating explicitly to the Khalistani movement and demands, please let's focus on the issues raised here.

It is important for us to look at these matters in depth and be willing to openly assess all points of view, I have read and witnessed many first hand accounts of state-toture victims, not only in Punjab or India, but globally with the work I have done sporadically chairing and running local Amnesty International meetings in my town.

This is a subject dear to my heart, as it is to any Sikh -but let's please focus on the 'aspect' of this wide topic being dicussed here.

Finally I have a request for any members of the forum who were themselves in Punjab or in Delhi during these dark periods of our contemporary history to please come forward with your personal opinions and accounts of what you experienced and presently feel.

BENTI TO THE FORUM: ANY RESPONSES TO POSTS MADE WHICH RELAY ONE'S PERSONAL ACCOUNTS, PLEASE SHOW THE BASIC COURTESY TO RESPECT THE INDIVIDUAL'S FEELINGS AND SENTIMENTS -THESE WERE DIFFICULT AND HARD TIMES AND AT THE VERY LEAST WE CAN SHOW SUPPORT IN CONSOLING OR UNDERSTANDING WHAT THOSE WHO PRESENT THEIR ACCOUNTS HAVE TO SAY.

Thanking you all.

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Dear Sardu, Insaaf Singh and Sikh Philosophy. The Sikh religion advocates harmony and peace. We must also harbour these fundamental tenets of our religion too. In today's world we need to strive for strong foothold in politics and media. Both media and politicians have worked together in India to strip the Sikhs of their pride. People can be educated and informed and campaign for justise and truth launched via the internet, hence my suggestion to Insaaf Singh.

Forgive or Forget we must not! We forgot partitioned India, we forgot partitioned Punjab in 1966, if we forget Operation Blue Star and the mass massacres of the Sikhs. What next? Are we to expect another Galughara? Sorry for being so pessimistic!

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sorry, have never read either so don't have ang # etc. perhaps someone else can help. I have quoted from a book (constitution of khalistan) that doesn't state a reference. If ne1 knows when or were guru ji said this please help sukhsingh out.

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Dear Sardu veerji,

I could not have put it in any better way than you did... Please accept my congrats... You have a big heart as a Sikh should have...:) Glad to know people like you around, through these forums.

Best Regards

Thanks veer. I appriciate your emotions.

Regards,

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Its quite painful to see 'Sikhs' who want to conveniently forget and forgive the massacre of Nov 1984. Forgiving the killers in Nov 1984 is not a matter of having a 'big heart' but perhaps of having no heart at all. Did the Jews forgive and forget the Nazis? Did the State of Israel not go to extreme lengths to catch Adolf Eichmann who was hiding in Argentina? Don't the Armenians teach their children about whay the Turks did to them? Don't the Natives and Blacks in America remember the crimes committed against them?

Why are we Sikhs different? What makes us have such disregard for what our bretheren have had to go through? Why do the likes of "Sardu" and "Sikhphilosophy" want to brush the crimes committed against Sikhs under the table? Does it disturb your convenient lives?

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Fateh Insaaf Singh Ji

Can you do any better than making useless provocating statements? Who does not want to live life in peace and harmony ?

Can you tell me, why Sikhs have forgotten and forgiven Nadir Shah, Baber, Aurangzeb, Jahangir etc.? We can still fight with Muslims to take "revenge" for the brutal atrocities, they commiited on Sikh some 400-500 years ago. If we talk on rational terms, the "revenge" has already been taken with the elimination of Prime Minister of India during those times. There were unilimited number of people involved, who committed crimes against Sikhs, can we bring to justice all of them ? Can you recollect the names of the senapaties, during the times of Nadir Shah, Baber, Aurangzeb, Jahangir who instructed the killings of thousands of Sikhs. The "revenge" for injustice has been taken, Sir. Its over. That time is gone.

I think, we can only learn from our mistakes. What happend to Sikhs was most unfortunate. I think we should now have to move ahead with times. The world today is severely dealing with Terrorism and Sikhs are already being associated with of Islamic Militancy. You do nothing when Turbans were banned in France. What kind of reformist are you, Sir ?

By our mistakes I mean, We have not taken care of making the world familiar with what Sikhism is all about. Even, today in all World Online Dictionaries, the meaning of Sikhs is a mere "Warrior Sect of Hindus", Sir, what are you doing about amending the all these online dictionaries. Have you even bothered to write a letter to make these amendments, naah !! We are least bothered to enlighten the world about Sikhism. We rather love to get involved in childish bickerings.

I think, the need is to bring awareness to world about the faschinating philosophy of Sikhism. Need is to go beyond the protected realims of Sikh community and penetrate into non-Sikhs/Western Community and let them know what Sikhism is all about. Need is to spread the wonderful message of Sikhism of Love, Compassion, Sacrifice and Universal Brotherhood to every part of planet.

But, instead, people like you and me are busy propagating Sikhism on the lines of Islamic fundamentalism and then when we are recognised worldwide as blood hounding Terrorists, we are shocked. We have to give advertisements in the newspapers so that these westerners can differentiate who is a Muslim and who a Sikh. What a joke we Sikhs have made ourselves to be?

Life has to move on, the times have changed, Sikhs now have to change their mindsets if they have to avoid being recognised or branded as Terrorists.

Best Regards

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sikhphilosophy whats ur problem? of course every1 wants to live in peace and harmony but that doesn't mean we should forget about the evil that has been done to us. we should learn from what has happened and demand justice from the killers, not forget about their crimes. And i am not advocating revenge, just justice and the protection of society from monsters like Sajjan Kumar.

And you obviously don't listen to the parchaar in your local gurudwara, people like Aurangzeb are always mentioned on stage. Who has forgotten and forgiven these evil people? The web is awash with stories of moghul evil and many sikhs have been brought up on a staple diet of sakhis of their crimes, many childrens books demonize them and quite rightly so for we should never forget the actions of the moghul tyrants and their attempts to destroy sikhi. and nor should we forget the evil genocides carried out by Brahmin sponsored paramilitaries in Punjab and beyond.

And cut out the patronising bs of what did people do for the protection of the right to wear the turban in france. how do u know what insaaf or ne1 else has done? i think the sikh community has been very good in lobbying the french govt on their case although a lot still needs to be done. Yes there is a need to bring awareness of sikhi to the masses as there is also a need to highlight indian terrorism against the sikhs, without people like you condemning others who stand up for human rights. You may forget the terrorism our 'indian brothers' have carried out against us but for others who see their parents killers being rewarded with political patronage a demand for justice is not too much and u certainly have NO right to stop them.

forget all u want and let ur future generations grow up in ignorance but i hope your version of i-want-2-forget-humanity-sikh-philosophy doesn't enter the mainstream sikh philosophy.

p.s. god forbid this should ever happen, but put urself in the position of some of the orphans in punjab. You have seen ur parents murdered by the police just for the crime of being sikh. Could you forget? So stop making useless provocative statements as u put it urself. Those orphans can probably accept the fact that they will never see their parents murderers bought to justice (thanks to Indian justice and hindu political patronage) but it must make their stomachs churn to know people on the net, people of their own faith are telling them to forget what has happened to them. I can understand the indian Govt trying to distort history but fellow sikhs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [goes off to puke]

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