Gupt Singh Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 previously i used to think that the kakkar was kesh. after all, everyone believed the same way. but when i did a deeper study into it i found that i was mistaken. for the benefit of the sangat i sugeest you go to www.akj.org and www.tapoban.org as well as www.panthkhalsa.org they have good literature there on the subject. i will summarise most of it here. firstly lets look at the sources we have to see if KES is a kakkar: 1. rehitnamas - i havent seen any specifically saying kes. although if u have tell me, its likely they were changed. 2. dasam granth - pro kes people (that doesnt mean that kes should be removed if keski is the kakkar, it actually makes kes more important) use the dasam granth to say kes is the kakkar. go to www.damdamitaksal.com and under the literature rehat section they use this quote. however this is not part of the dasam granth itself written by guru gobind singh. it is used as an "appendix" and has been dated to be written much later. even sgpc admit that this is not gurujis writing. 3. the hukamnama to kabul - this is also known to be a fake. there are many, many fake hukamnamas around and this is proven to be one of htem. if you go to www.tapoban.org and go to the message board, under the topic " dastar" i think they discuss it. there might be a few others i have forgotten - please enlighten me. but my main point is we actually have very little information on what the kakkars were! now if we look at the evidence for KESKI 1. rehitnama bhai chaupa singh - yes bhai chaupa singh isnt the most reliable source but he still says "kara, kirpan, keski, kachera, kangha, these are the five articles of the faith for a sikh". 2. rehitnama bhai daya singh and bhai nand lal etc. also bhai prahlad singh? - they dont explictly say that keski is a kakkar (but then none say the same of kes from my knowledge) but they say TIE YOUR TURBAN EVERY MORNING, also THOSE WHO CONSUME FOOD BAREHEADED ARE DESTINED FOR HELL and also condems those who ROAM AROUND BARE HEADED. not only this but bhai daya singh, the 1st of the panj pyare, goes as far as saying WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE THEIR HAIR LOSE, THEY SHOULD TIE IT AS A TOPKNOT ON THEIR HEAD. this means women must tie a jurra also. obviously, you have to keep your hair covered. also: "Each candidate for Baptism be made to wear kachhehra, tie hair in a topknot and cover the same with dastaar; wear Sri Sahib (i.e. Kirpan) in Gaatra (shoulder belt). Then he/she should stand with folded hands." (Rahitnama Bhai Daya Singh Ji) 3. also importnat is this: "...Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa should keep his hair unshorn, have flowing beard and have simple dastaar which saves him from impiety. Then the Sikhs asked what would happen to those Amrltdharis who start cutting their hair or do not keep their hair covered. The Guru replied that they would be stupid and will lose their sensibility It is a blemish to remain bareheaded...Always keep two turbans. When the bigger turban is removed, the smaller be kept. The smaller turban should not be removed." (Bijai Mukat Dharam Shastra - Sakhi-8) there is no mention of man or woman difference. also the keski underneath is not to be removed. 4. jd cunningham states in his book history of hte sikhs 1848 "The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress, chiefly by a higher topknot of hair."22 Higher topknot of hair on Sikh women's heads automatically implies their coverage by some sort of turban, as Cunningham has connected it with "some variety of dress." 5. so why did this happen then? how did keski phase out? well we know already that all the fashionable sikh gals would much rather have their hair out then in a keski. its well known. its well known that a certain jathedar (gurmukh singh mustafir) allowed women to take amrit w/out keski. there was a huuuuge rush of women who all came. so therefore it was kept this way. "S. Shamsher Singh Ashok who has been an active member of the Singh Sabha movement and an erstwhile Research Scholar of the S.G.P.C., while discussing the prevalence of the use of 'keski', states: "...and, consequently in the Amrit-Parchaar at the Akal Takht Sahib, this was a precondition even for ladies before they could be baptized there. Any woman who was not prepared to wear Keski was not baptized. This practice continued even after the end of the Gurdwara movement. Relaxation was made only when Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafir became the Jathedar of the Akal Takht."23" 6. the most reliable evidence we have is from a group of poets who chronicled history. they wrote as follows. "A recent discovery from old literature puts a final seal on the Keski having been prescribed as a Rahit by the Tenth Guru himself. While going through the old Vahis of the Bhatts, lying with their successors in Karnal District in Haryana State, Prof. Piara Singh Padam of Punjabi University Patiala came across a paragraph explaining the first baptism of the double-edged sword bestowed by Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji on the First Five Beloved Ones on the Baisakhi of 1699 A.D. and the Code of Conduct imparted to them on that auspicious occasion. Based upon the language and style, this manuscript has been assessed to have been written in about the end of the eighteenth century. As this finding is of special significance in this respect, the English translation of the whole paragraph is reproduced below: "Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Tenth Guru, son of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji, in the year Seventeen Hundred Fifty Two, on Tuesday - the Vaisakhi day - gave Khande-Ki-Pahul to Five Sikhs and surnamed them as Singhs. First Daya Ram Sopti, Khatri resident of Lahore stood up. Then Mohkam Chand Calico Printer of Dawarka; Sahib Chand Barber of Zafrabad city; Dharam Chand Jawanda Jat of Hastnapur; Himmat Chand Water Carrier of Jagannath stood up one after the other. All were dressed in blue and he himself also dressed the same way. Huqqah, Halaal, Hajaamat, Haraam, Tikka, Janeyu, Dhoti, were prohibited. Socialization with the descendants of Prithi chand (Meenay), followers of Dhirmal and Ram Rai, clean shaven people and Masands was prohibited. All were given Kangha, Karad, KESGI, Kada and Kachhehra. All were made Keshadhari. Everyone's place of birth was told to be Patna, of residence as Anandpur. Rest, Guru's deeds are known only to the Satguru. Say Guru! Guru! Guru! Guru will help everywhere." this also shows that both halal and haram were forbidden (no meat allowed) finally, its just common sense. the panj kakkars are symbols. they can be taken off the body. kes cannot. if i remove my kara its not too bad. if i remove my kes then i am a patit. kes is so special it requires both keski and kangha to keep it in good condition. theres plenty more argument on those sites. please tell me what ya think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 waheguru ji ka khalsa - waheguru ji ki fateh i have read thru the akj article on this - and it does make sense - but in a way it doesnt really matter wat is the kakar or not end of the day - kesh is not to be removed at any costs... whether the keski is a kakar or not u say that "the panj kakkars are symbols. they can be taken off the body. kes cannot. if i remove my kara its not too bad. if i remove my kes then i am a patit" so in theory - if someone takes their keski off - its not a great sin - just like how when u take off ur kara? each kakar is as important as each other... if u take off ur kachera (not havin one leg in it at one time) then its seen as a major sin - and an ardas must be done to beg for forgivness - so why is there a difference between taking off ur kachera - and taking off ur keski???? sikhi is not a religion which puts allot pressure on a person and it makes it very hard for them to go thru daily life.... if u are gonna have a kesh ishnaan - wudnt u have to take ur keski off to wash ur hair??... when u dry ur hair u would also have ur hair uncovered.... it is understandable that in some cases u will have to take off ur kakars at some point - u cannot comb ur hair without taking ur keski off can u? yes i understand that u shudnt eat bareheaded - and not walk around bare headed - if i aint washin my hair - or combing it - my kesh are always covered in my opinion - i dont think there should be such an arguement over whether the keski is a kakar or not - there should be more preaching about the importance of covering ur kesh at all times - rather then creating a more wider divide between people over such a minor claim.. i hope i aint offended anyone with my opinions - bhul chuk di maafi fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 yeh singh i see where ur coming from you have a point with the kachera thing but there is plenty of evidence for keski as a kakkar. it IS a big issue - imagine if i changed "kirpan" to "katar"......thats a big thing changing what guru ji said in bhai rama singhs darshan from guru gobind singh he ordered him to only give amrit to those who accepted keski as a kakkar as it was the true kakkar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 fateh theres a big difference between changing wat kakar u will be having - for example u say changing kirpan to a katar - there is a major difference between each thing but if u look at the arguement of the keski as a kakar - u use a keski to cover ur kesh - if ur amrit dhari u should really have the respect for ur kesh to keep them covered at all times - so in the end - isnt it the same thing?? like i said earlier - it is such a minor thing - the day that amrit dhari singhs start walkin about with their hair on their shoulders and having their pony tails tucked into a baseball cap - then this arguement would be plausable - but when all amrit dhari singhs wear a dastaar - and most women do - then i dont really see it to be much of a problem yes i agree that women should also wear a keski at all times - but dont u think that it would be better for them to learn this - rather then having these arguements in the akal thakt no one tells singhs they have to wear a dastaar - they do it - bibiya should also do the same - if u told a bibi that she could wear a kirpan - but she cudnt wear a gatra - u would see every bibi argueing like mental the gatra is not a kakar - but it is essential for the keeping of ur shri sahib - the same goes for the keski - it is essential for the keeping of ur kesh fateh ji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 but surely if all kes evidence is not credible and keski evidence is, and since so few women wear keskis anyway, wouldnt it be better to change it back to keski in the rehit? i also heard sarbloh granth mentions keski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 I read "In search of the True Guru" by Bhai Rama Singh Ji and he states that he had darshan of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Ji tells him to give Amrit only when keski is the fifth Kakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GABROO KHALISTAN DAH Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 man why fusss over such a thing... do it, as veer steel bangle said, its no big dealio, if u have respect for ur kesh, then u'll wear a keski. Why bring splits over such a small thing, are we going to go change all of history...remember the bhai sahib ji who said "sir javaye tha javaye sikhi sidaq na javaye", bhai sahib did'nt say that because they removed his dastaar, but b/c of threat to his kesh sahib. But end in end....they complement each other, so dont' fuss, cause u can't have 1 without the other..so keep such a thing in urmind. cause its a point less arguement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 man why fusss over such a thing... do it, as veer steel bangle said, its no big dealio, if u have respect for ur kesh, then u'll wear a keski. Why bring splits over such a small thing, are we going to go change all of history...remember the bhai sahib ji who said "sir javaye tha javaye sikhi sidaq na javaye", bhai sahib did'nt say that because they removed his dastaar, but b/c of threat to his kesh sahib. But end in end....they complement each other, so dont' fuss, cause u can't have 1 without the other..so keep such a thing in urmind. cause its a point less arguement agree with u and Mr steel Bangle ji WHy make a Big deal outta a minor thingy.. they complete each other.... end of story...innit? //bhulla CHukka maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted July 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 yeh i know what ur saying.....it is a minor thing...but in one way its a big thing.....look at our sikh girls how many wear keski? virtually none. if this is what guruji told us to do, it is quite a massive thing really. imagine if for some reason suddenly all sikh women stopped wearing kirpan. i think that it is a important issue, but if u believe kesh is kakkar fine, providing that if u are a lady you wear a keski also, and u never remove it as guruji said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GABROO KHALISTAN DAH Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 how r u 2 wash ur hear iwth a keski? how ru to change ur keski without taking it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 how r u 2 wash ur hear iwth a keski? how ru to change ur keski without taking it off? oooh c'mon! that was pathetic :S :? U shoujld read MR steel Bangles post again!!! ( IF u ever did ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 agree with u and Mr steel Bangle ji WHy make a Big deal outta a minor thingy.. they complete each other.... end of story...innit? //bhulla CHukka maaf SB is making it clear for those who dont understand, some people dont have the ability to understand it as quick as u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 SB is making it clear for those who dont understand, some people dont have the ability to understand it as quick as u if ur point was the reply i gave to this : how r u 2 wash ur hear iwth a keski? how ru to change ur keski without taking it off? then dont u think it is REALLY OBVIOUS u gotta take of ur KEski when changing it... and washing ur hair isn't that obvious :S Gabroo Khalistan da If i offended u please forgive me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 ok this thread is lockin up now - if u have a good reply to make to this then pm either mod and they will open it up for u :wink: :::locked::: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted July 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 urm i think when u take ur keski off, u tie it round ur waist, then put ur kirpan and kangra thru it like a belt, hten wash your hair. when you wash ur body, u keep keski on, tie kirpan round it, keep kangha inside, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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