SUKHBIR Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Kaal, Just cause we live in the west, doesn't mean our philosophy is wrong, you come here been brought up on the western ideals and principals, and forsake your own, Firstly you are mistaken, although equality of the sexes is now taken to be a western ideal as I pointed out earlier this is a very new phenomenon in the west. Women did not receive the right to vote with men in equal term's until 1928 in England, prior to that women had virtually no right's whatsoever in western society and no protection under the law they were traded and treated pretty much like cattle and seen as the property of men. First of all find out what the indian philosophy was, why it worked, and why it is breaking down in toadays society, (other then the fact that it is kaljug) Be clear that the indian philosophy of having women subservient to men is one of control and no different to having shudras subservient to brahmins, it only 'worked' as you put it in the interests of men on the principal that women were property. The state of women in India today is something that the indians should be ashamed, not proud of. The levels of female infanticide, prostitution, child marriage, rape are amongst the highest in the world and when your talking about tradition's don't forget Sati and ritual prostitution like the 'Devdasi' that is still carried out to this day. When you talk of indian philosophy you are talking of one that treat's women despicably but that is not our philosophy should we follow the Sikh path then Guru Nanak dev ji advises that. From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman. That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful. O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. || 2 || (Page 473) When you are talking about what you see as the breakdown of society I assume you are referring to the lack of moral values and the erosion of the nuclear family in western society. Of course this is an entire discussion on it's own but a major cause of western society's ills at the moment is still the lack of equality. Women have simply swapped old shackles for new one's. Just to re-iterate gender equality should not be confused as a western principle when the likes of Guru Nanak dev ji were preaching it's virtues 500 years ago. Incidentally a time that saw women bought and sold freely in the west. its stupid this western philosophy of equality, these extreme women rights activists, I think its gettin to apni kuris heads, If "apni kuris" as you put it want equality that is exactly what their faith offer's them in it's doctrine it is absolutely right that this should be followed through in practice. Like I mentioned earlier the brand of 'equality' that you talk about, the one that is paraded by marketing men day and night through every media possible, one which leads many women to mental illness because they cannot fulfil the new stereotype she is meant to represent is very different to the true equality that Sikhi espouses. The sort of ad-man equality that in many way's is responsible for the detrimental effects you talk of can be illustrated thus. In the 50's it was the loving mother/ housewife who would cook and clean all day and still have a smile when her hubby walked through the day, nowadays she is excepted to be a assertive/aggressive, a slim and beautiful career woman sexually liberated and leaving a string of men sobbing in her wake. Of course both these pictures were not drawn by women but by men and when women cannot live up to these excpectations we see new and negative results like anorexia, bulimia, huge rise in cosmetic surgery, obesity, alcoholism, drug-abuse etc. As well as the inevitable breakdown of moral values and the family unit. Of course this is a simplistic look at a very complex subject but I hope it served to show the difference between the true equality that is reffered to in reference to this post and the bogus equality you allude to. This is not the type of equality we are talking about when discussing the right of women to do ANY seva a man can. Think of it this way why should a woman be discriminated against on the grounds of something that she had no control over i.e.. the determination of her sex and how is this different to someone being discriminated against on the basis of caste? If it weren't for the feminists u wouldn't have had these silly questions! Would you say Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a feminist? I do not think so, he was a humanist as all Sikhs should aspire to be. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAAL Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 lol @ sukhbir singh i have read ur reply unfortunatley i havent the time to reply to ur post, but i will do so, and you will get it next week, i will quickly say, yes i knw it is a new phenmoneon it is still western, eastern philosphy is different, and like i said it has workd from the time of satjug, this is goin on like you said 1928, please wait for my reply in full next week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 >If you get a promotion ahead of her, that is favoritism. >If she gets a job ahead of you, it's equal opportunity. >If you make a decision without consulting her, you're a chauvinist. >If she makes a decision without consulting you, she's a liberated woman. >If you ask her to do something she doesn't enjoy, that's domination. >If she asks you, it's a favor. hmmmmmmm.. let me quickly ask u.. IF THAT REALY EQUALIT Y :S and was it THAT equality Guru Nanak Dev ji Tought us.. u say that TODAY's Equality well then stick 4 the old one!!! coz THAT ISN*T equality cozwhat da argument is if the Women are alloud or not alloud 2 be in the Panj Pyaare.. whichhas NUTHIN 2 do with what u said coz thsat is EQUALITY....if both Sexes r alloud 2 be a part of the Panj Pyaare.!!!! //bhulla CHukka Maaf WJKK WJKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAAL Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 when u represent the panj pyare u wear guru jee's bana, with which u show ur legs, and women, have to wear a salwar, now to become 1 of the 5 does she take the salwar off?? somehow i dont thinkso, you are also meant to b recreating the ceremony, unless 1 of the panj was women?? no, even when you take amrit you have to just where your kachera! as a singh that is, if you dont like it tough, cause thats the way it is, end of story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 when u represent the panj pyare u wear guru jee's bana, with which u show ur legs, and women, have to wear a salwar, now to become 1 of the 5 does she take the salwar off?? somehow i dont thinkso, you are also meant to b recreating the ceremony, unless 1 of the panj was women?? no, even when you take amrit you have to just where your kachera! as a singh that is, if you dont like it tough, cause thats the way it is, end of story so by justifiying all this u MEAN TO SAY THAT GURU ji also discriminated Women?!?! if tTHat is the way that u do it.. u mean 2 say he didn't care about the Women?!? aight so ur sayin by justifiying all this that Guru JI Discriminated Women as well //BHulla CHukka Maaf So Kyo Maanda Akhiye Jit Jaami Raajaan! WJKK WJKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Everyone, You guys are in debate section and basic rule of having debate is simple " focus" on topic, and what are we doing? This topic is to have woman in five deciple or not? So stick to that... Take the back up of your posts as we are going to delete them just so youth can take it as reference if they see this question in their daily life. Its so easy to mold youth towards any org by tricking them and we don't want them to be like that and that's our mission. We want them to know the truth and then decide. Just keep this in your mind that youth is so confused becasue of these so called babas we have within sikhism, and every topic we start we should be able to give them full detail not our personal opinions. We should have all the appropriate references so in real life they can handle all the questions they see coming towards them from non-sikhs. I'm going to start "woman equality in Sikhism" so pls put your input in that post. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Alright this thread goin outta line. Locking this topic. Please create another thread discussing some of the points you may have Mr. Singh and KAAAL! Happy Debating!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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