Sukhi Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 i had a discussion recently with someone on abortion and whether it was right or wrong. one argument given against abortion is that parents are not important because God can take care of everything. this got me to thinking: if truly God is taking care of everything, then what is the need or rather importance of living in this world? what's the importance of human social relationships on a spiritual level? surely God didn't place us on this human infested planet without thinking that these social interactions were needless. given that everything is an illusion, is there nothing to be gained from being vulnerable and a part of the greater social community? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernal Monk Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 no 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 taking those kind of arguments to their logical extreme would result in a society like that found in "a brave new world"... not a very attractive proposition in anyones book... unless u like constant wild orgies, no sexual taboos & where the only social taboo is that of becoming emotionally attached to another individual. er... what was my point again?? basically what i'm trying to say is that society has certain rules & expectations of the individuals that make it up. these are (by & large) to ensure the continuation of civilization & an "acceptable" way of life.... & not for spiritual elevation. does this mean interactions of this nature are meaningless?... no, they do have an important function... though it may not be of spiritual value. on the question of whether there is anything to be gained... perhaps i can answer that with another question... have u gained anything of value during ur time as part of the sa community? if not, y are u still here? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybersingh Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Sukhi, I am in no manner a "sant" , "brahmgyani" in fact I think that my views are equivalent to a donkey as i don't have much education and others on this woderful site are much more brilliant than I. But here's my thoughts, we are put on this earth for a reason which would be that we are repenting for our past actions and judgement has been passed on for our past life. It's like a killer's sentence has been passed and now he is serving time so in that manner we are serving time and being rehabiliated on this earth. Our goal in this life is to earn profit by doing good deeds so when we pass on we can "cash it out". As for parents, well the way I see it is a child up until the age of at least 15 needs a mother and father in order for guidance and after that he is or at least should be mature enough to venture on his own. Not having parents is in the metaphorical sense for spirituality in the sense that when we die, no one goes with us and none of our materialistic things go with us. Page 721, Line 6 -- Guru Nanak Dev jan pisar padar biraadaraaN kas nays dastaNgeer aakhir bi-aftam kas na daarad chooN savad takbeer And when at last I fall, and the time of my last prayer has come, there shall be no one to rescue me just my thoughts.......Bhul Chuk Maaf karna 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 guv, i understand what you're saying. but i think what struck me the most is that... i dunno how to put it into words without sounding like a complete fool like i usually do. for some reason, i happen to think that the relationships we have in this world help us in more ways than mere survival. for example, a mother can teach her child a whole lot more than just how to take care of your hygiene so you dun smell bad and make girls faint when you walk by. mother's can show you the meaning of patience, the meaning of humility, modesty, sacrifice among other things. can our spiritual growth truly be complete without going through the experiences of being a child, a sibling, a friend, a teacher, a husband/wife, a parent or the other roles we encounter in life? i'm not saying that we need to have an immediate "blood" relation to the people you interact with. but don't the people we interact with have more worth than being mere tools of survival...? maybe i'm not being clear in what i'm confused about... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Sukhi, do you write posts on an empty stomach? seriously some things you write are so unclear, or maybe its because im thick 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 its funny, coz i was thinkin about this in the morning, when i woke up well, the way i see it is, nothing can be achieved without doing something...although guruji says that everything is in hukam there is nothing u can do hukamai andhar sabh ko baahar hukam n koe guruji also says that u shud try, udham karo oudham karo karaavahu thaakur paekhath saadhhoo sang || I make the effort, as You cause me to do, my Lord and Master, to behold You in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. In terms of relationships with ppl....there is a common concept that the soul knows things from previous lives, such as who they were close to, who their parents were etc etc.... Guruji talks about other people aswell(sangat) avar kaaj tere kitey na kaam ,mil saadh sangat bhaj keeval naam... can our spiritual growth truly be complete without going through the experiences of being a child, a sibling, a friend, a teacher, a husband/wife, a parent or the other roles we encounter in life? i feel its is all part of our path to god....we cannot jus expect to get to god in a flash... sehj pakey soo meeta hoye.. ..things take time...jus like a fruit...u have to wait for it to be ripe before u can taste the true sweetness Also this life is really insignificant, because its one of many millions....yet we must still leave without our bank balance of naam in the positive.... Anyways jus like ur vague question, my answer is jus the same, an assortment of thoughts all whacked into a post....its difficult to talk about one topic without havin to go into another topic..lol All i kno is that we have to believe and have faith in the things we do.....for me sikhi isnt only about salvation...its also a way for us to be happy and enjoy this life....i believe that the soul is programmed to reach god eventually....and will get there in the end...the journey can be painful or happy i guess spirituality cannot be explained or described...lol all i kno is that when i believe in something, i try and make it happen...its all about belief 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 yep, ahem at the last bit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Also this life is really insignificant if that's true, then it's wicked that we're all sitting on SA, as we have nothing to worry about. but if it's, not true, make the most of your time! I believe we should live every life, every moment as if it were our last... do not have any regrets. You would definately treat people differently and see things in a new perspective! i guess spirituality cannot be explained or described...lol ana(n)dh bhaeiaa maeree maaeae sathiguroo mai paaeiaa || I am in ecstasy, O my mother, for I have found my True Guru. i think thats a good description. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 mother's can show you the meaning of patience, the meaning of humility, modesty, sacrifice among other things. can our spiritual growth truly be complete without going through the experiences of being a child, a sibling, a friend, a teacher, a husband/wife, a parent or the other roles we encounter in life? i'm not saying that we need to have an immediate "blood" relation to the people you interact with. but don't the people we interact with have more worth than being mere tools of survival...? on the question of whether there is anything to be gained... perhaps i can answer that with another question... have u gained anything of value during ur time as part of the sa community? if not, y are u still here? ------ I believe we should live every life, every moment as if it were our last... do not have any regrets. You would definately treat people differently and see things in a new perspective! begin with the end in mind 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 ghost i did say yet we must still try and leave with a positive bank balance..i was tryin to show how they kinda go against each other.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 ghost i did say yet we must still try and leave with a positive bank balance..i was tryin to show how they kinda go against each other.. no u didn't... u said: Also this life is really insignificant, because its one of many millions....yet we must still leave without our bank balance of naam in the positive.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 table ji.. Guv has quoted exactly wot i read hence, my response. thanks Guv 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 oh sorry that was a typo... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 no probs dude.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 i figured it must be... but i thought i'd be pedantic, just to be a pain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Sukhi, do you write posts on an empty stomach? seriously some things you write are so unclear, or maybe its because im thick sorry! lol... i've got a jumble of thoughts, and some of them are interrelated. besides, that last post was written at about 3/4 in the morning. and ye, i WAS hungry come to think of it... :S on the question of whether there is anything to be gained... perhaps i can answer that with another question... have u gained anything of value during ur time as part of the sa community? if not, y are u still here? yes i have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 damn.. wasnt that a conversation killer! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 sorry... i might have something that clarifies what i'm talkin about... Sukhi says: we were talking about abortion Sukhi says: and she was like Sukhi says: abortion is wrong Sukhi says: even if the child is a result of a rape Sukhi says: the woman should still carry the child to term and everything Sukhi says: so i replied and i was like what if the child is abandoned by the mother? Sukhi says: why should the mother when she has been forced and taken advantage of have to take care of the child? Sukhi says: besides, a child is supposed to have parents who love and care for them, otherwise it's just wrong. you're just creating issues and paap for someone else. Sukhi says: *goes Sukhi says: she goes it's not important for the child to have anyone else Sukhi says: because God will take care of everything for the child Sukhi says: and i was like :shock: Sukhi says: as true as that is, you still need social human relationships to survive in this world Sukhi says: but what she said was true too Sukhi says: and what i'm tryin to do now is figure out the right balance Sukhi says: but my question still stands Sukhi says: is God enough? Sukhi says: and don't just say yeah Sukhi says: like really Sukhi says: realistically Sukhi says: is God enough? i figure that God is enough. but there's more to it than just giving up on everything. there's probably more to the picture of why we have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children, friends, etc, than what we can think of. so in essence, my point is that God is enough but only if you consider our human relationships as part of what God has given to us in order to ensure our survival. what i was a little more taken aback by was the fact that she thought that without even having any human influence, the child would survive. thinking back on it, i think it's true. if it's in hukam for someone to come into existence, nothing can stop it. it seems to me that i might not have the same "blind faith" needed to really grasp the possibility of letting go and letting Him/Her/It handle things without the need of human interference. and if you don't understand any of what i said, it's okay. i'm more thinkin out loud right now than anything else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 to what extent is the world an illusion? are we a drop of water on a journey to join the ocean, or are we already part of the ocean & under the illusion that we have 'left'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 what i was a little more taken aback by was the fact that she thought that without even having any human influence, the child would survive. perhaps she meant that if the mother does not look after the child, god would ensure that someone else would look after him/her... rather than the child would survive on its own with no contact from humans. i don't know if that was the point u were asking... :? but also, social interactions are not just about ensuring survival. it is through these interactions that we built civilisations & how we can learn from the experiences of all our billions of peers & ancestors... & perhaps make a contribution to the celestial tapestry detailing the triumphs & pitfalls of our species. without social interaction, we would not have learnt language & higher thinking skills... & indeed, even be discussing this topic today! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 what i was a little more taken aback by was the fact that she thought that without even having any human influence, the child would survive. Sukhi & Guv I have to agree with the person on this point :shock: :idea: Have you never seen the Jungle Book? :arrow: im NOT taking the piss :!: .. i'm sure there was a real life story on the news a few years ago, where a child was raised by bears (or some other animals). i will TRY and find the article.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 "Children raised by wolves, monkeys and other animals": http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php?tp=0 it includes their pictures as well....... also that article i was talking about: "From monkey boy to choir boy": http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/466616.stm known to be one of the most convincing cases of a human being reared by animals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 did you see something...? Many children who've lived with animals tend to behave like their foster parents: they walk on all fours, make the same noises as the dogs, wolves or other hosts, and can bite and be aggressive. This provides confirmation that they certainly did spend their formative years in the company of animals. meaning that these kids don't behave like humans. maybe that's part of these kids' karma...? so yeah, the child would survive... to become an animal...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 yeah maybe @ animal...but then what happens when the child reaches age and wants a family....u dnt need a language to understand that....its instinct 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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