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funny how he gievs no mention to the lines by bhai gurdas 2, which says

yoa uptaj singh bhujangeeay neelambar dharaa, in his section on blue dress

I have quoted OLD texts, where blue dress or 'Neelambar' is mentioned. For example, I quoted 'Gur Bilas Patshahi 10' (Sukha Singh) (See: - http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/gurugobindsingh.html), which says: -

Neelaambar Kutka Kar Dhaare.

It Ut Moh Khalsa Maare.

I have quoted even Bhai Sahib Gurdas Ji, where he said that Guru Nanak Dev Ji wore blue dress: - http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/bluedress.html

I prefered only Puraatan texts in this regard, and there is no evidence, I think, to prove that poems by Bhai Gurdas 2 are as puraatan as other texts I quoted. If you provide me evidence that Bhai Gurdas 2's poems are really 'puraatan' source, I am ready to add them in next update with my explanations. Possibly, you have not read whole of 'Vaar' of Bhai Gurdas second. Any puraatan text would hardly make such statements.

The quote you provided goes like this: -

Iyoon Upje Singh Bhujhangeeye Neelambar Dhaara.

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  • 3 weeks later...

A reply to the "blue" article:

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1...042&t=61042

Blue *IS* A Khalsa Colour

I applaud Bhai Amritpal Singh Amrit for his analysis of Snatani practices. But as they say, we shouldn’t, "throw the baby out with the bath-water". I was concerned to see him try to dismiss Blue as a Khalsa colour.

Blue has traditionally been worn by the Khalsa along with orange and white. Black is also acceptable but became popular later on.

I will try to give a preliminary reply to his article here

Muslims & Blue

I and some other Singhs were discussing Bhai Amrit’s article on blue clothes and one Singh asked why “neel bastar†were described as being Muslim colours and why the Khalsa now wears neela.

Muslims are not discerned by blue clothes now. In the past Muslim dress has always thought to have been green (haideri) and Muslim Ghazis are known to wear Green clothing. Why does Gurbani say neela?

A Singh from Kashmir (Poonch) was sitting with us and he said that where he is from, the locals call green “neelaâ€. They call green chilis not “haree mirch†but “neelee mirch†they call green grass “neela ghaaâ€.

This explains it. For people of that area (mainly Muslims), neela meant not blue, but green.

What Did Guru Gobind Singh Wear?

There has been an attempt to say that Guru Gobind Singh jee only wore blue when leaving the forest in Macchiwara.

The oldest account of Guru Gobind Singh jee and the formation of the Khalsa is the Bhatt Vehis. What do the Bhatt Vehis say about what Guru Sahib wore when the Khalsa was created?

The Bhatt Vehi "Multani Sindhi Pargana Thanaysar" is described by Piara Singh Padam as the oldest account of this event :

>>>>>>>>>>>

"Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, tenth Guru, son of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji, in the year 1752 on Tuesday-the Vaisakhi day-gave Khande ki pahul to five Sikhs and surnamed them as Singhs. First Daya Ram Sopti, Khatri resident of Lahore stood up. Then Mohkam Chand Calico printer of Dawarka; Sahib Chand barber of Zafrabad city; Dharam Chand Jawanda Jat of Hastinapur; Himmat Chand water carrier of Jagannath stop up one after the other. All were dressed in blue and he himself also dressed the same way. Hookah, halaal, hajaamat, haraam, tikka, janeu, dhoti were prohibited. Socialisation with the descendants of Prithi Chand, followers of Dhirmal and Ram Rai, clean shaven people and Masands was prohibited. All were given Kangha, Karad, Kesgee, Karhaa, and Kacheraa. All were made Keshdhaaree. Everyone’s place of birth was told to be Patna, of residence as Anandpur. Rest, Guru’s deeds are known only to the Guru. Repeat Guru Guru, the Guru will help everywhere

>>>>>>>>>>

So blue was the colour the Khalsa was first given according to the oldest source.

Bhai Amritpal Singh has said:

>>>>>>>>

Furthermore, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji left for his heavenly abode, he was also in saffron ('Kesree') attire. 'Gur Bilaas Paatshaahee 10' written by Bhai Kuyer Singh clearly mentions the colour of Guru Ji's clothing, when he left for the 'Sachkhand': -

Aap Snaan Karyo Sah Kesan, Kesree Khyom Patam Pahraaye.

From the foregoing analysis of various texts, we can conclude that Guru Gobind Singh Ji wore clothing of various colours and that to assert that he wore only blue attire after the inauguration of the Khalsa in 1699 is wholly incorrect.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No one denies that kesri is an acceptable colour. Punj Pyaaray today generally are all dressed in kesri robes. Kesri is considered a royal colour. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh jee was wearing kesri only says that kesri is an acceptable colour for the Sikhs as well, not that blue is not special or unacceptable (as the article seems to suggest).

What would surprise me would be if Bhai Amritpal Singh could show me any reference to Dashmesh Pita jee wearing something besides Blue, White, Kesri or Black. That would be a find.

Clearly, Blue was a special and acceptable colour of the Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh jee being royalty, wore kesri as well (as our royal Punj Pyaaray still do today). This is not a surprise, but to be expected.

Puraatan Sikhs and Colours

Amritpal Singh has provided the quotation about the dress of the sahibzadas:

>>>>>>>

the Sahibzadas were in fact in saffron (Kesaree) clothing: -

Kesaree Ang Paushaak Mahaabar, Moorat Pekh Kahai Eh Baanee.

>>>>>>>

As I said before, Kesree is the royal colour for the Sikhs. It is no shock that the princely Sahibzadas would have worn this colour.

What I do take issue with is Bhai Amrit’s next statement:

>>>>>>>>>>

Bhai Sukha Singh speaks of Sahibzada Ajit Singh Ji, the eldest son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji being called into the holy court of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He comes to Guru Ji and Bhai Sukha Singh describes his attire as consisting of red ('Arun') shoes which were shining on Sahibzada Ajit Singh Ji's feet, a red shawl, a red shirt and a red turban which graceful upon his head. The original lines read as follows: -

>>>>>>>>>

The colour red has been forbidden amongst the Sikhs since the start. It is not an acceptable colour for Sikhs to wear.

Bhai Daya Singh rehitnama tells us that those “who use colour prepared from red ochre or the kusumbha flower†are tankhaiyas. It says plainly, “Bastr kusunbhay na pehray†or “Do not wear clothing which is coloured red. â€(verse 23).

Bhai Prehlad Singh rehitnama also tells us, “soohay anbar pehn kar jo naasay nasvar…†“He who wears red clothing, or inhales nasavar up his nose will be beaten about the head and thrown into hell†(verse 12).

So how is it that this description of Baba Ajeet Singh jee came about?

It must be asked, Who was Sukha Singh? The fact is that he NEVER SAW Sahibzada Baba Ajeet Singh jee. On what basis is he giving such a detailed description besides his own imagination? Sukha Singh was born in 1768 and wrote this in 1797. After a hundred years, how would he know what Baba jee was wearing? This is clearly his own literary imagination at work, not a statement of fact.

Bhai Amrit has also given a description of Baba Gurbaksh Singh and the Singhs with him who became Shaheeds. He quotes Pracheen Panth Prakash as following:

>>>>>>>>>

Giani Gian Singh writes in 'Panth Prakash' that Bhai Gurbaksh Singh wore saffron clothing, when he went to fight: -

Tan Dhare Bastar Kesree, Dastaar Ooch Sajaaye.

(He wore saffron robes and tied a high turban).

In 'Pracheen Panth Parkash', Ratan Singh Bhangu speaks of the colours worn by other Sikh companions of Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Ji:

Kisai Pushaak Thee Neelee Sajaayee.

Kinai Set, Kisai Kesaree Rangvaayee.

>>>>>>>>>

This is no big finding. It goes with what has always been known. White, Orange and Blue are all Khalsa colours. The story of Baba Gurbaksh Singh in Panth Parkash (Bhangu) actually begins with a saying "neel bastar rakh, reh rehit changee" meaning Baba jee wore blue clothes and kept good rehit. It doesn’t say here that they wore green or red. Only Orange, Blue and White. This is in complete accordance with Khalsa Tradition.

What I do find interesting that Bhai Amrit has not taken note of is that Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee is said to have an "ooch" dastaar. Perhaps in those days these type of dastaars weren't called dumallas, but by any name, it is the same thing. Baba jee's dumalla had different chakars and a kirpan in it(according to Panth Parkash). Clearly, even if it wasn't called a dumalla, it was indeed a dumalla. This is in contrast to Bhai Amrit's assertion that dumalla did not exist in those days.

I’m not much moved by the descriptions of Singhs in only kacherras and blankets. Singhs in those times had very little. Depending on the condition of the weather and their own economic condition, it is possible they wore very little. But that does not go to say that Sikh dress is no dress at all. Clearly this dress was functional for the circumstances. Even today some bana-wearing Singhs will wear only a fatoohee (short kurta) when they are training for gatka or some other circumstance, but that doesn’t mean this alone in isolation is the dress.

Clearly when the went to Guru Sahib's darbar they were not dressed in just a kacherra.

Proof of Special Nature of Blue Dress

Blue dress is not something recently invented for the Khalsa. As mentioned before, Bhatt VEhis tell us that Guru Sahib himself dressed the Khalsa in Blue.

Furthermore, the old vaar“Vah Vah Gobind Singh Aapay Gur Chela†we all sing, by Bhai Gurdas II, tells us about the creation of the Khalsa as well.

[gurbani] inj pMQ clwieE Kwlsw Dir qyj krwrw]

isr kys Dwir gih KVg ko sB dust pCwrw]

sIl jq kI kC phir pkVo hiQAwrw]

sc Pqy bulweI gurU kI jIiqE rx Bwrw]

sB dYq Airin ko Gyr kir kIcY pRhwrw]

qb sihjy pRgitE jgq mY guru jwp Apwrw]

ieauN aupjy isMG BujMgIey nIl AMbr Dwrw][/gurbani]

See the last line. It says that “thus the Bhujangi Singhs were created, dressed in blueâ€.

The puritan Rehitnamas also tell us that Blue is a Khalsa colour. Bhai Daya Singh’s rehtinama tells us that a Khalsa colour is “surmaiee†or dark blue (verse 23). He goes on further to say , “So Akali rooop hai neel bastar dherai†or “An Akali is known by the blue garments he wearsâ€. Clearly blue clothing was a special Khalsa colour!

Rattan Singh Bhangu in Pracheen Panth Parkash writes about the differences that lead to the split between Baba Banda Singh and the Tat-Khalsa. In regards to the clothing issue, he writes that Baba Banda Singh wanted his soldiers to wear red, which was unacceptable to the traditionally blue wearing Khalsa:

[gurbani]“nIl pihrn qy dUr krwXo] smrw sUhw sIs bMDwXo][/gurbani]

meaning, “he tried to wean them away from blue. He made them tie red on their heads†The Khalsa would not give up blue and could not wear red, so a split occurred. This also flies against Bhai Amrit's assertion that the Tat-Khalsa only took on blue after the split. They clearly were wearing blue before.

Thus you can see that the Khalsa did indeed wear blue clothing and considered it their “special†colour, not just one colour amongst many others.

Blue is a traditional Khalsa colour and we should feel proud to wear it. Blue isn't the only acceptable colour. Orange, White and Black are fine as well. But I do think that Blue was perhaps the one most Khalsa preferred. Just because some Nihang Singhs do corrupt practices like Bhang does not mean we should dismiss everything about them. They do have many traditions preserved like bana, sarbloh, gatka, etc. These should be appreciated.

I have not written this to be a comprehensive article in support of blue. That would require a lot more research and that is something I don’t have much time for at the moment, but I did want to give an answer to the article on blue clothing.

..

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Once upon a time, on the outskirts of the pind (village) Musapur, near Phagwara in Punjab, a group of ‘Amlees’ (lit. users of ‘afeem’, or here crazy individuals) sat together around a fire drinking away from their bottles of ‘desi’. They began to complain to each about the manner in which they were treated and (in their opinion) wrongly perceived by the people of the village.

This went for some time until one Amlee, having a brain wave, declared that during his time in the nearby pind Radhawa, he had noticed how the Jats there had become prosperous through farming. This Amlee suggested with much enthusiasm that the group of Amlees collectively begin to farm and that way they will show the residents of pind Musapur what they’re really about and once again reclaim their rightful position in the locality.

Another Amlee within the group jumped up and began to congratulate his companion on this amazing idea, followed by others in the group who, following their lead, began planning for planting their ‘ganey’ (sugarcanes) all falling over each other in what they perceived to be an ingenious proposal.

This again went for some time, until one member of the group, who until this time had been sitting by himself in a corner drinking away on his glass of ‘desi’ objected “that is a fine plan, but you all forget that the people from the pind will come and eat your sugarcanes and leave you with nothing!â€

At this objection, the merry making of the Amlees immediately came to stop and they became considerably wound up at this insinuation. This state prevailed for yet again, a short while, until they all unanimously concluded that they should proceed with a ‘hamlaa’ (attack or onslaught) against the pind.

The attack was launched with full throttle and the Amlees were joined by others from their clan who undertook long trips from various pinds across Punjab upon hearing of the plight of their brethren to come and assist them with what they deemed to be a great sacrilege of their custom.

Musapur pind was then ransacked and torched, chaos was unleashed by the Amlees. The villagers pleaded “why do attack usâ€â€¦the Amlees quipped “hor ganey chuppo!!!†(“well, this is what you get for taking our sugarcane!â€).

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Dear 'Singh132' Ji, thank you for the link. I am confused a little bit if you are Balpreet Singh Ji himself or not. If you are Balpreet Singh Ji, then I can address you (Singh132), otherwise I will have to address someone else who is not on this forum.

Well, I have read the posts on that link. Before we start discussions, I would suggest Balpreet Singh Ji to read my pages again. Also, it will be good if they read 'Guru Keeyaan Saakhiyaan' again. Bhai Sukha Singh Ji mentions red colour, though Rahatnamas are against it. I have studied 'Rahatnama Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji'. My study on this Rahatnama is presented on amrotworld.com. Bhai Chaupa Singh's rahatnama is against red colour. I have quoted Gurbani and other Rahatnamas in a footnote in my study. Please have a look. I do know that red dress is prohibited in Rahatnamas.

We will discuss these points in this thread, but again, I request you to read my pages again.

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http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...14794&st=24

I am surprised to see people are saying bhai Amrit singh is not akj. He is from akj background. Everyone knows it in his city. in this foto he is seen with other ajk people. This is his childhood picture. He is playing gatka with karam singh of akj. Other two senior akj men are seen in the picture. Akj children are seen in this foto. These children are fathers and mothers of their children now. All are akj.

it is funny that bhai Armit Singh has critise nihang dress but in this picture he is in nihang dress.

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Amritpal Singh,

Correct me if I am not wrong but is that not Principal Karam Singh, who has links with both the AKJ and Sikh Missionary College? I would suspect during the time of this photo however, from what little I do know of him, he would have had more links to the DDT given the situation during the 1980s and he strong support for Sant Jee.

I didn't realise that standing amongst a certain people makes you into them, in that case we'd all be Brahmgyanis by simply standing next to Sants and Mahapursh and having our photos taken with them!

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Gurfateh

Well some self aclaimed 'Nihung' Gajjan Singh wants to give Honurary membership of some Group to Brother AmritPal Singh JI. :LOL:

Das can say if 'Nihung' Gajjan Singh is Nihung then he has no authority to decide for the membership of AKJ and let AKJ themselves apporach Brother for thier membership.

Anyway if brother is from AKJ then DAs is happy to find first person from there with such high intellect and requests other AKJ people to come to brother and learn to read and understand and if they can not come and get tought from brother then they can go to Damdami Taksal.

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Amritworld site is funny. :D . It is doing nothing but raising controversies. :D Lagda hai ke Amrit Pal Singh de din poore ho gye han. :D

Well, Nihang Gajjan Singh Ji is great. If Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit' is seen with AKJ people, he must be a member of AKJ.

Here in this picture, he is seen with 'Singh Sabha' management. So, Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit' is a 'Singh sabhia' :D : -

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Gurfateh

It seems that we are AKJ,Nihungs or Singh Sabhaiya first and not Sikhs.

Perhaps that some people do think.

This is pity :(

As per Kalki Avtar of Dasham Granth each day there will be cult and many many sects in ghore Kaliyuga and it seems to be starting.

Das respect various ideolgogies togather but making wrong comments unto the great personality like Brother is hurting.

Brother is of Panth and not of Nihungs or AKJ etc.Rather his intellect belong to whole mankind and is using to serve the whole.

Akal Bless.And let him serve humanity for millions of years to come.

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I am just a humble servant of the Panth. It does not hurt me if any Sikh makes such a comment for me. I am happy with Nihang Gajjan Singh. He has the right to say what he wants to. I am just enjoying his post. :D

Let us go further with Nihang Gajjan Singh's post :D : -

Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit' is a 'Ganja'. He has no hair on his head. He does not wear Kachhehra. He puts black Tilak on his forehead. Here is the EVIDENCE: -

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  • 2 weeks later...

Gurfateh

Das wants to make a comment on Balpreet Singh Ji's writing.

As per Japu Sahib Akal is Arange as well as Abarne both means colourless.

As per Verse delivered by Akal on Kabeer Ji recoded in Guru Granth Sahib,Hari jan or person of God is needed to be like God.

In Sarbloh Granth also Guru tells that there is no diffrance in Akal,him and them(Khalsa).

in verse some one says Ram Some one Khudye also we have statemnat some one wears white and some one blue ie Hindus and Muslims.

So both colours are also rejected by Sikhs there also.

It is good for Hindus to wear saffron and Muslims to green or sufis ets to have blue flag.

But for Sikhs all colours belong to us as God by self is one colour and by self in multiple colouered ie in all colouered.

So for common Sikh colour is irrelevent But for Nihungs due to old Shia background or related to blue thraoted Shiva being shiv swaroop colour could be something.

It is pagan thing but can be accepted.

In farsi Nihung is tgerm use for crocodiles and it is used for the same in hiayats literaly chapters but here meaning stories of JAffernammah.

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