FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

[Matheen]

You have to be ready for the battle before it begins.

W-bol, did you even listen to the Katha that Neo posted?

[Maha Kharag Singh]

matheen, we do jhatka say 2-3 times a year. rest of the time diet is veg because halal is haram. We are on this dharti to do karam, this bhoomi is karam khand. We each have our respective dharam, may it be warrior or yog (ie bhakti) If one has a love for God then no karam of an animal can get in your way. The cycle of life and death must continue if that animal doesnt die by my hands it will die at the hands of someone else or natural causes. What brother NEO was pointing out about tamsic etc was that when you meditate you cant have flesh taking six hours to break down in your stomach when your meditating, most importantly you wont be able to sit if you have eaten meat because of your body speeding up its metabolic pathways, and chemicals in your body going haywire due to no physical activity. Surti should tik when you overcome the senses, ie sit still control touch, control sound (the best way i find is i know this sounds a little contradictory but to listen to a tanpura while meditating, this channels the sound and creates a drone by which you can begin opening your chakras) then control sight, you can do this two ways either close your eyes and have a jyot infornt and concentrate on the glow or go into complete darkness and search for "the light" you could blind fold. The you should control your breathing, breathe so that you feel or in a sense imagine the breath going down to your muladhar chakra and then out. ofter control of these senses your surti should tik, and thats when experiences kick in. first experience that i had was (what i think is my chakras opening) i felt vibrations at the bottom of my back then slowley as the weeks progressed the vibrations moved up. now when i meditate what i experience is ineffable.

[Maha Kharag Singh]

fine veer ji very much agreed with you !

so are we living in those times where we have to goto a battle spill many people's blood for righteousness???

and thanks for pointing out that eating meat for pleasure is sin so the eater him//herself knows why he ate.

see again you totally misinterpreted the message of the sau sakhi, think out side of the box.

In Shrimadh Bhagwat Geeta, Shri Krishna gives gyan to Arjun about Dharam, about life and death. And one point which Shri Krishna really stresses is that this dharti is karam khandi, and that everything happens in accordance to the will of Almighty God, may it be the death of an ant to the death of one of Arjuns relatives, therefore the sin would not be on his hands, he also stresses the intention that he carries out his karam play a big role. Because if one was to take what Shri Krishna said literally then the actions of phsyco's would be justified. Arjun killing his family because he was for righteousness was justified but Arjun killing his family for money, wealth, aishwariya would have been wrong.

Here we can draw in the issue of meat, if one kills an animal with the intention of bringing it pain is adharam, but if someone kills an animal to strive then that is not adharam. We are on this earth to gain Karam, good and bad, when you kill an animal, yes it might feel pain but it will also be grateful to Almighty God for releasing it from its joon so that it can move on and reach heera janam, but then again who doesnt feel pain, the pain of death is no where near to that of childbirth or emotional pain is it?

When an animal is jhatkad its head is removed, its brain is cut off from the body's neuro-senses, therefore it cannot feel pain, one blood is cut off from the brain after 30 seconds it will loose consciousness as with any organism. Now your telling me this is worse than that very animal in a forest who is mauled by a tiger where the tigers teeth pierce the neck, the brain still has contact with the body as the neuro senses are still intact, blood is still reaching the brain where it is still in consciouses. You would call a tiger taking the life of the animal the will of God then why not the human taqking the life of the animal the will of god?

[wahegurubol]

[wahegurubol]

Gautam Buddha and his disciples ate meat and pork. They use to beg for food, but before they went begging for food they were told not to look what they got in their begging bowls and just eat whatever came their way.

So in this case meat eat is acceptable. Meat eating is also acceptable if you are in a war and you got no food around you and no choice.

But consider we are living in the year 2007. We have import/export trade of food going on , no matter where we live and what we do , we dont need to eat meat, unless we are perhaps fighting at the border of some country or marooned on an island alone all by ourselves !

[Guest]

People may want to read the jhatka maryada post by javanmard. This is followed in nihang dals:

Here is the jhatka maryada as described in the old sarabloh.com website (pre-Nidarpanthi) from 2001:

If people become aware of the Maryada behind Jhatka, then hopefully they will be able to understand that it is far more that just people quenching their thirst for meat.

Please visit Image Library One "Jhatka : 'Death from a single blow'", to view a series of photos dealing with the process Jhatka.

To Akali Nihang Singhs the Maryada of Jhatka is a gift from our beloved Satguru. To see Jhatka as the consumption of meat is comparable to seeing Gur Ka Langar as the consumption of food.

Satguru Maharaajs Langar is far more than just the distribution of food, Gur Ka Langaar should be prepared with extreme Sucham (cleanliness), the Gursikhs involved should be reciting Gurbani or doing Naam Simran..

When the langar has been prepared it is then brought before Satguru Maharaaj and Ardas is offered. During the Ardas, the Gursikh will ask Satguru Jee to bless the Langar by touching it with a weapon, usually a small iron Kard (Blade). The Langar has now become Gur Ka Langar. It is much more than just food.

The availability of Gur Ka Langar to people of all castes, creed and colour is a philosophical extension of Gursikhi, it demonstrates in a physical manner the spiritual concept of equality and the love of humanity.

The Maryada of Jhatka, in the same vein is far more than just the consumption of meat. However many modern day Sikhs are unaware of the Maryada involved in Jhatka and the philosophical implications involved.

Damdami Taksaals 11th Jathedar Sant Baba Gurbhachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale, has written that if the time arises when a Gursikh needs to eat meat to survive, he should kill the animal with his own Sri Sahib (Sword). So the knowledge of what Jhatka is and how it is performed is of use to those who do not consume flesh on a regular basis.

The process of Jhatka begins with the appointment of a Nihang Singh that will take responsibility for this seva. The Nihang Singh is selected by the Jathedar (leader) of the Dal. The Jathedar will then perform Ardas in Satguru Granth Sahib Jees Hazoori, asking Satguru's agia (permission or blessing) to enroll this Nihang Singh onto this seva. After this process is complete the Nihang Singh in question will be referred to as an Ardasi Singh.

In Akali Nihang Dals only Ardasi Singhs can take part in Satguru's seva. Only Ardasi Singhs can prepare and touch Gur Ka Langaar, only Ardasi Singhs can sit on Satguru Maharaajs Tabia (next to Satguru Jee on his Throne), only Ardasi Singhs can prepare Karah Prshaad, Shaheedi Degh and Mahaprashaad.

The induction of Ardasi Singhs to do Satguru Jees seva ensures that no impostors or people of bad Rehit get anywhere near Satguru Jee Langar or Prshaad We must appreciate that many people use the Bana of the Satguru Khalsa Panth in order to scare people. These impostors are commonly referred to a 'Nangs', or the naked ones. Nangs are not a new phenomena, they have also been around for a very long time. Although they may look like Nihangs, the Nangs have no love or understanding of the Dal Panths Maryada. When these fools are caught committing wrong deeds they are often seriously beaten, in some cases they may even be killed. The process of appointing Ardasi Singhs ensures that no 'Nangs' get anywhere near Satguru Maharaajs Degh, Langar or Mahaprshaad. Only Nihang Singhs of good Rehit are given the honour of becoming an Ardasi Singh.

This maryada also applies to Jhatka, only Ardasi Singhs can take part in this seva. Having been appointed to do the Seva, the Ardasi Singh will begin his preparation for Jhatka by having Ishnaan (Bath). He will wash his body and his hair, having done this he will put on a Sucha Chola (clean garment), Karmkassa and Dumalla. Finally he will clean his Karah with Sand.

After having Ishnaan, the Ardasi Singh will commence his paath in Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Hazoori, Vaar Sri Bhagauti Jee Ki Patsahi 10 (also known as Chandi-di-Vaar). The Ardasi Nihang Singh must be able to recite this Shabad from memory. Var Sri Bhagauti Je Ki depicts the epic battle between the Goddess of War Chandi or Durga, and the egoistic rakhshas (evil demons). Satguru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj describes a battle of horrific magnitude, where Chandi, seated upon her tiger is dispatching the Evil Rakhshas. When he has completed the shabad, the Ardasi Singh does Namaskar and leaves Maharaajs Hazoori.

Whilst the Nihang Singh that is going to perform Jhatka contemplates Chandi-di Vaar, another Ardasi Singh gives the Bakra (old goat) a full ishnaan (bath). Only goats are used within Akali Nihang Dals for Jhatka. When questioned about why Goats are used for Jhatka, the Chardi Kala Nihang Singhs replied "this is the Maryada started by Satguru Hargobind Sahib Jee, and we have no intention of changing it. After bathing the Goat, it is bought into the area in which Jhatka will be performed.. This designated area will have straw or hay put down on the floor.

The Nihang Singh that is going to perform Jhatka calmly approaches the Goat. Some Nihang Singhs encircle the goat in Gatka Pentra (Movements associated with Shastr Vidia), this has the effect of calming the goat and making it feel comfortable seeing the Shastr (sword).

The Tilk Laguan Vala Singh (The Singh who is going to anoint his weapon) then stands next to the Goat, at this stage some Akali Nihangs begin to recite Shastr Naam Mala, this is a Shabd in Sri Dasm Satguru Granth Sahib jee depicting the glossary of Weapons.

Another Ardasi Singh will have splashed water on the neck of the Goat, this makes the cut much smoother.

The Nihang Singh continues to move his Sword, very slowly above the head of the Goat. The goat at this stage will keep moving his head back and forth, because it finds itself in a new situation, it is unsure how to react.

Again the Tilk Lagaun Vala Singh moves the Sword, who represents the Goddess Chandi above the head of the Goat, the Goat now begins to move less. The Nihang Singh waits for the right moment.

The Goat drops his head slightly, then in a single shin (The same amount of time as it takes an eye to blink) the Nihang Singh focuses his mind on Maha Kaal (Great Death), and infuses the Sword with his Kamai (Spiritual Power achieved via meditations), the Sword severs the head of the Goat and the onlooking Nihang Singhs let off Jaikarey (Battle Cries). Click here to listen to an Akali Nihang Singh Jaikara.

The blood that rushes out of the Goats body is collected in a Bata, this will be used to apply tilak to all of the Shastr in Satguru Granth Sahib Jee's Hazoori. This process also takes place at Sach Khand Sri Hazoor Sahib Jee, all of Satguru Gobind Singh Jee's weapons are anointed with blood. Some of the Purataan Akali Nihangs drink the blood neat, it is said to be a good source of iron.

The goats head is placed on a Sarbloh Plate and then shown to the Sangat, the purpose of this is to show that it has been with one clean cut. The Bibeeki Singhs (Nihang Singhs of very Strict Rehit) will only eat flesh that has been killed in a single blow, Jhatka. They will refuse to eat flesh even if one little blood-vessel remains in contact with the head and body, this is called Patka.

The Body of the Goat is now passed on to the Ardasi Nihang Singhs who are in control of the Langar. They will skin, chop and cook the flesh. Whilst cooking the flesh they will recite Gurbani of Dasm Sri Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj. After the flesh is cooked, a small amount of it is taken into Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaajs Hazoori. Ardas is performed and the tip of the sword is dipped into the cooked flesh. Having performed Ardas, the flesh has become 'Mahaprashaad', the great Prshaad.

The 'Mahaprashaad' is then distributed to all of the Sangat, they must be seated in Pangat (rows on the floor). The brains of the Bakra (goat) are served to the Akali Nihang Singh that performed the Jhatka.

If a Nihang Singh consumes Mahaprashaad and believes it just to be meat, then he is committing a huge sin. Mahaprashaad is a gift from Satguru Hargobind Sahib Jee Maharaaj to his army.

Just as the consumption of 'Gur ka Langaar' is more that just eating 'food', the consumption of 'Mahaprashaad' is far more than the consumption of 'meat'. The Sucham (cleanliness) kept whilst Mahaprashaad is prepared is of a very high level, no body except the Ardasi Singhs can touch anything. When Mahaprashaad is being prepared the Nihang Singh recite Gurbani and focuses on Mahakaal.

The maryada of Jhatka has deep philosophical implications. The worship of weapons cannot be complete without worship of the Battle-field. The highest from of worship on the battle-field is the slaying of the Dusht (enemies). To increase our control of weapons, Satguru Jee has started the Maryada of Shikaar (Hunting) and the son of Hunting is the consumption of flesh.

So we hope that this brief introduction to the Maryada of Jhatka, helps the Sangat appreciate that Jhatka is much more than the craving to eat meat. Jhatka only takes place on special occasions such as Gurpurbs.

[wahegurubol]

Veer ji , How dyou know the information present on sarbloh site is authentic. I choose to believe in what the sants say who are UNITED WITH GURU ! cos what they speak is what the WILL OF GURU is.

secondly veer ji, to say that jhatka is a gift from the Guru would equate to saying that slaughtering animals as sacrifice to Allah is a gift from Allah , but Guru ji condemned all such sacrifices.

[wahegurubol]

I dont want to argue any more with meat eaters, but those eat meat will definetly have to pay the price. To close this discussion, I would like to paste a small story which I was reading from the biography Se Kinehya, It is about a man who was amritdhari , had slaughtered some lambs.. here is the story.

It is from the life of RESPECTED SHRI SANT HARNAAM SINGH JI RAMPUR KHERA VALEY.

I would suggest everyone and especially Maha Kharg Singh to read it.. who thinks he can get away with slaughtering animals.

***************************************************************

Baba Ji had a devotee who lived near Jalandhar. He was God

loving and religiously minded but was nonetheless easily misled by

materialistic thoughts. That person arranged his daughter’s marriage to

a rich but materialistic family. The day for the wedding was fixed. The

gifts and dowry to be exchanged had been agreed. Finally, the menu for

lunch was discussed. The groom’s family insisted on having liquor and

meat at the wedding lunch. This devotee of Baba Ji raised some

opposition to this demand but hesitated, thinking that if he were to flatly

deny this demand then the groom’s family may break off the engagement.

Influenced by his soon to be relatives, he agreed to serve meat and

liquor at the lunch. The wedding day drew closer. The family came to

deliver an invitation to Baba Ji and requested Baba Ji to attend the

wedding ceremony and bless the couple.

Baba Ji asked them where they had arranged their daughter’s

marriage. He told Baba Ji about the family where his daughter was to

be married and let slip that meat and liquor would be served because

the groom’s family insisted upon it. Baba Ji listened patiently to the

devotee’s admission and sighed deeply. He said, “O my good man, to

stifle your own conscience under the influence of your relatives, showing

your back to the Guru’s principles and doing that which is immoral

reflects badly upon you. In doing so, what do we hope to gain in attracting

the Guru’s displeasure. Our wise ancestors considered marrying our

daughters off as a great and pious act of charity. On one hand, you are

to perform a pious act and on the other many innocent animals are to be

slaughtered for the transient pleasure of our taste buds.

After the wedding, your daughter will go to her new house but

who will shoulder the sin of slaughtering so many animals? Remember,

you will have to carry this burden of sin and repay the debt in this and

the next life. If your daughter is destined to be married into that household

then she will marry into that family without any doubt. By offering meat

and liquor is not going to cement her relations with that family anymore

strongly than they are already destined. Neither will her marriage to

that family deteriorate if you do not offer meat and drink. If you, as a

baptised Sikh, falter in your vows like this, then what hope is there for

the rest of the people? A gursikh should not abandon one’s vows or

principles. He who abandons his principles is pushed around in this

world and pushed out of God’s abode in the hereafter. If, as a gursikh,

you behave in such a way, with what face can you or I tell others to

abstain from liquor or meat. Only the one who practices moral principles

can preach to others. He, who does not practice what he preaches and

is thus a hypocrite, is not accepted in the Guru’s house. There is still

time to rethink your decision and change your mind.

The devotee listened despondently and with a sense of shame but

still asked Baba Ji to attend the wedding. Baba Ji replied that a wedding

where so many animals were to be killed for pleasure of the palate and

where the Guru’s principles were abandoned in favour of public approval

would be difficult to attend.

That devotee sat a while and then left for his abode. The wedding

party arrived on the appointed day. On one side, the wedding was being

conducted in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and on the other,

a short distance away; lambs were awaiting their death in order to

provide pleasure for the guest’s palates.

This surreal programme, of joy mixed with sorrow, finished at

noon. The guests drank and ate, returning to their homes in a drunken

stupor. Next the bride’s relatives had their turn to finish off the remaining

alcohol and meat. With drunken people falling all over the place, it was

amusing, in that no one needed a bed for the night to sleep in.

Anyhow, the girl went to her in laws and a few days later the

Sardar Ji was on his way into Jalandhar riding his scooter when he had

an accident and broke his hip. Writhing in pain Sardar Ji was transported

by car to a local hospital. The doctors there could not treat him and

advised that he be taken to a bigger hospital with an experienced surgeon.

He required major surgery, which involved replacing his hip with a steel

prosthetic implant. The family members asked the doctor’s to relieve

his pain until he could be taken to another hospital. The doctors attached

a weight to Sardar Ji’s foot and laid him to rest. Five or six days were

spent crying with excruciating pain. Only he knew how painful the

fracture was but any visitors who came heard his blood curdling cries

of pain. Contrary to the advice of the doctors the family brought Sardar

Ji home and asked a local quack to fix his fractured hip instead of taking

him to the specialist hospital. For three months, he was unable to move

and being bedridden had to relieve himself whilst on the bed. He was

utterly dependent on others to help him. By the fourth month, he was

well enough to sit on the bed. Whoever visited him during these days

would be told by Sardar Ji that he had been punished for killing those

speechless animals. “To appease my daughter’s in-laws I ordered the

killing of these animals and in return, I have been punished and must

endure this extreme suffering and pain.†In the early days of his recovery,

he had sent word to Baba Ji to come and visit him. He sent a message

apologising to Baba Ji for not listening to his advice. As is the gentle,

forgiving nature of Saints, Baba Ji decided to visit Sardar Ji. Baba Ji sat

me beside him in the car. As soon as we arrived, the devotee started

crying inconsolably, repenting his mistake and begged forgiveness. He

confessed, “I abandoned my Guru’s principles under the influence of

my new found relatives. Please forgive me Baba Ji. Baba Ji replied,

“Sardar Ji you are mistaken to ask for my forgiveness, it is the Almighty

who forgives. Pray for his forgiveness and repent your mistake in front

of him alone. I only petitioned you take a particular action which you

ignored. Are those people now sharing your pain for whose sake you

earned and took upon such a sin? They made merry, ate and drank,

then vanished off to their homes. You however must carry the burden

of sin. They only came to enquire about your health once or twice. The

pain you suffered is but a partial payment for your sin, there is more yet

to repay because Gurbani says…

Whatever deeds you have performed or are carried out at your

command, you alone will have to answer for them. No one else can

repay your debt or suffer for your sins. The Lord is beneficent and

forgiving. In front of his grace, these sins are washed away like straw

in a flood of water. Bhai Vir Singh Ji has mentioned a beautiful anecdote

in his poem “Necklace of waves†that time, which has elapsed, cannot

be recalled. The present time cannot be utilised by repenting our sinful

deeds in remorse. Try to ask our friend the Almighty Waheguru to forgive

our trespass. In the future, try to avoid making mistakes by acting upon

the Guru’s’ advice.†For nearly a year Sardar Ji was left bedridden and

even today, he limps on one leg when walking. To this day Sardar Ji

guides people by giving them the benefit of learning from his experience,

telling them of his traumatic experience

************************************************************

[Maha Kharag Singh]

[Mystical]

Holy ! I cant believe that this guy really thinks that by doing jhatka hes realising the animal from its joon..... such andhakaar in our qaum, Then you better go and do jhatka to all the goats !

As for the tiger. ... That is all GOD'S WILL ..its HUKAM .. a Tiger doesnt eat an animal alive ! it kills its first ... Its all God's creation.

So whom am I really to say anything. Lets just read a few words from the SGGS.

[align=center:347a6c701d]In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;

they eat dead animals for food. They bark and speak, telling only lies;

Dharma and Vichaar have left them. Those who have no honor while alive,

will have an evil reputation after they die (sggs 1242).

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action.

Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? (sggs 1103)[/align:347a6c701d]

For starters Guru Ji is talking about the ruler of the time, the corruption, people were getting killed just because they didnt accept Islam, but to them it was called righteous, "You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?".

If you think its wrong to eat meat why don't you tell the tiger to stop eating meat? And why you think it isn't Gods Will when a human eats meat but when a Tiger eats meat its his Will? Did you know even Vegetarians eat flesh? Ever heard of the Punjabi word "Chiller" meaning skin or Flesh? Every living creature practices some sort of Dharma and duties, this is how creatures transmigrate. And im noticing that "Modern Sikhs" on the Sikhsangat forum don't believe in reincarnate or even Hell or Heaven.

By drinking, one's intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;

he cannot distinguish between his own and others’ —

he is struck down by his Lord. By drinking, he forgets his Lord,

and he is punished in the Court of the Lord (sggs 554).

The truest of the true burn away the bonds of the world,

and eat a simple diet of grain and water (sggs 467). [align=center]

You havent putted up the whole shabad, what was writtern before this shabad?

This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Bihaagraa on Pannaa 554

salok ma 3 ||

Salok, Third Mehla:

maanas bhariaa aaniaa maanas bhariaa aae ||

One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup.

jith peethai math dhoor hoe baral pavai vich aae ||

Drinking the wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;

aapanaa paraaeiaa n pashhaanee khasamahu dhhakae khaae ||

he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master.

jith peethai khasam visarai dharageh milai sajaae ||

Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord.

jhoot(h)aa madh mool n peechee jae kaa paar vasaae ||

Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power.

naanak nadharee sach madh paaeeai sathigur milai jis aae ||

O Nanak, the True Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True Wine.

sadhaa saahib kai ra(n)g rehai mehalee paavai thhaao ||1||

He shall dwell forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||

======================================================================================

You have to ask yourself what is the false wine. Its not actually speaking of wine as such but talking about the false wine as a metaphor but this is a reflection what is this false wine that Guru Ji is talking about? Is this wine falsehood? You can even say drinking the false wine is drinking maya, the false intoxication of maya makes you forget the lord and master. But in other shabads it says the true wine is naam itself. If there is a wine which reminds of God, drink that wine.

[wahegurubol]

man just read the story of baba ji;s life which i posted above, in which the man eats lambs and then how he suffers. the story is from se kinehya. bus who am i to say anything.

i have seen majority sikhs in western countries consume meat... and in india amritdharis dont eat meat.

[shaheediyan]

WB, I think the purpose of the story is about highlighting hypocrisy and negation of ones principles.

The references to eating meat are clearly made to those people who eat meat for taste, rather than survival or warrior tradition.

Everysingle living being has a unique belief, be it that many within a community have a similar one based on one main source.

Focus on your belief and ensure that you are not an hypocrite, you've made your concern for the rest of the Sikh nation clear, now give people their space and God given right to practice their own beliefs in peace, you talk much about Vaheguru's wrath, I would be more concerned about recieving his displeasure via all the voluntary representation and judgement you are engaging in on Vaheguru's behalf.

Take a leaf out of Baba Harnaam Singh Ji's book, and give polite advice only once (if you really feel you need to) and leave people to make up their own mind.

All you are doing is increasing emnity between veg Vs meat camps and the poor souls who choose to take sides.

[Maha Kharag Singh]

WB, I think the purpose of the story is about highlighting hypocrisy and negation of ones principles.

The references to eating meat are clearly made to those people who eat meat for taste, rather than survival or warrior tradition.

Everysingle living being has a unique belief, be it that many within a community have a similar one based on one main source.

Focus on your belief and ensure that you are not an hypocrite, you've made your concern for the rest of the Sikh nation clear, now give people their space and God given right to practice their own beliefs in peace, you talk much about Vaheguru's wrath, I would be more concerned about not recieving his displeasure via all the voluntary representation and judgement you are engaging in on Vaheguru's behalf.

Take a leaf out of Baba Harnaam Singh Ji's book, and give polite advice only once (if you really feel you need to) and leave people to make up their own mind.

All you are doing is increasing emnity between veg Vs meat camps and the poor souls who choose to take sides.

thank you brother shaheediya thats what ive been trying to say to him the whole time

[Guest]

enough said on this topic, topic *locked*. PM me if you have anything extraordinory add to this rotten meat debate going in the panth for ages.