Silence

Has any sikh sant ever spoken or written about Mirabai? If so, what have they said?

Sabh to aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Mahraj uses the term amritpaan so its not correct to say that amritpaan is a very recent term ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਨ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ॥ Its only dodgy if you don't believe in panj kakkar rehit. I did not realise that believing in the most basic principles of Sikhi means you must be a Singh Sabhia sympathiser! Vaheguru being gurmantar is in Bhai Gurdas Ji Di Vara, Sarbloh Granth and many many more sources. You are majorly contradicting yourself when on the one hand you say that the language is modern and unlike old texts, and then admit that its highly inspired by Sri Dasam Granth! Make up your mind! What is the point of discussions like this? What exactly do you want to see? A confused and divided panth? A sikhi where no one actually knows anything at all and there are no agreed principles. Is that what you'd like?

so whst is the difference in lifestyle between followers of either marag?

saach keho suun laeho sabhay, jin praem keeo tin hee prabh paaeyo ||9|| 29 ||

him being the guy who never denied being God?

nihangs, taksal, akj, all traditional groups say it must be sarbloh as do all traditional accounts

they make it easier to tie with thora the fact that they appear without the khanda actually serves to demolish the theory of them being testicles to a phallus! if they are to represent anything, they could easily be the handles to two kirpans, if not that like i said, they make it easier to tie with a tora.

Yeah organsations like the indian government

thank you

Just to clarify, are you meant to do all of these or is it you choose which one to do?

loving the new skin, the topic heading fonts suit the topic names too

sorry when i meant pharmacists here i meant the pharmacists in supermarkets like tesco. some of the tesco stores have a whole pharmacy section with qualified pharmacists.

one thing that came to mind was u cud also try just asking the pharmacists here for help.

And how is that staying nyara? Really if jhatka is something you can share with hindus its not really making the khalsa nyara is it, which means its not a Khalsa tradition!!

what are these missing banis? is there a full list?

santhiya by bhai kulbir singh tapoban http://www.gurmatbibek.com/pages.php?id=2

Don't forget SikhiToTheMax II software!! http://sikhitothemax.com/updates.htm

Original Source should be available in most Tesco or Sainsbury's stores, I've seen them in Boots as well.

I don't know about 'Ketoconazole' but as far as I am aware shampoos by 'original source' tend to be totally vegan or vegetarian, it usually says on the bottle. sorry i can't be of more help edit:google search came up with this http://www.vegetarianbeautyproducts.com/ketoconazole-shampoo/

Fair enough but that it was a requirement to wear a keski before being given amrit, whether a woman or man is a fact. If women were not wearing keskia then it is simply that they did not take amrit until the requirement was removed in the 1920s this doesnt mean that it wasn't compulsory just because they didn't do it.

this is actually kind of a reinforcement to my point. the very reason for Gurmukh Singh removing the keski requirement was because less and less sikh women at the time were taking amrit as they didnt wan't to wear a keski. This would tie in with your grandparent's remembering keski wearing bibia as a minority. I remember reading about the stats of the amount of women that took amrit the first time keski was made non compulsory, and it was a huge number. also in "singha da panth nirala" by bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji, bhai sahib mentions that prior to 1900s many women did not want to wear kachera and were even supported by their husbands in this leading to many amritdhari singhs having non amritdhari wives until the panth decided only amritdharis could marry amritdharis. This tells us that we cannot really rely on any period even just before the early 1900s as a true and accurate description of gurmat practices. As for the mainstream bibia, JD Cunningham observes, “The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress, chiefly by a higher topknot of hair.” This is clearly a reference to keski. If you see pictures of bibia wearing small keskia with chunis on top covering the keski fully then you can easily understand an outsider with no knowledge of keski rehat calling it simply a different dress with a higher top knot of hair.

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section. evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswers.com/sikh-articles-of-faith-identity/keski-not-kes-as-the-kakkaar/

actually tyiing of beard and using fixo is what causes unnaturaly long growing (apart from the really rare times when it happens naturally), and mucha etc, generally only get really thick when the person used to trim it or puts any sort of fixo, etc on it. If from the very start of the dhari and mucha growing u dont do anything to it apart from normal ishnan, combing with kanga and living a normal life i doubt apart from exeptions it would grow abnormally long. As for beard tying please read: Sachian Dhaarhian By Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org ਸੇ ਦਾੜੀਆਂ ਸਚੀਆ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਗੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ॥ Se ḏāṛī▫āʼn sacẖī▫ā jė gur cẖarnī lagaʼnniĥ. ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਅਨਦਿ ਰਹੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ॥ An▫ḏin sevan gur āpṇā an▫ḏin anaḏ rahaʼnniĥ. ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਮੁਹ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਿ ਦਿਸੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ॥੫੨॥ Nānak se muh sohṇe sacẖai ḏar ḏisaʼnniĥ. ||52|| ਮੁਖ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੁ ਦਾੜੀਆ ਸਚੁ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥ Mukẖ sacẖe sacẖ ḏāṛī▫ā sacẖ bolėh sacẖ kamāhi. ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਂਹਿ ਸਮਾਂਹਿ ॥ Sacẖā sabaḏ man vasi▫ā saṯgur māʼnhi samāʼnhi. ਸਚੀ ਰਾਸੀ ਸਚੁ ਧਨੁ ਉਤਮ ਪਦਵੀ ਪਾਂਹਿ ॥ Sacẖī rāsī sacẖ ḏẖan uṯam paḏvī pāʼnhi. ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਸਚੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥ Sacẖ suṇėh sacẖ man lain sacẖī kār kamāhi. ਸਚੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਬੈਸਣਾ ਸਚੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥ Sacẖī ḏargėh baisṇā sacẖe māhi samāhi. ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਚੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਭੂਲੇ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੫੩॥ Nānak viṇ saṯgur sacẖ na pā▫ī▫ai manmukẖ bẖūle jāʼnhi. ||53|| (Vaaraa(n) tay vadheek, salok M:3, p. 1419) The clear meaning of this gurvaak’s pangtee (line) is that those good and true Gurmukh beards are true and pure that touch the Guru’s feet. Meaning, those straight bearded Gurmukhs, are true Gurmukhs, who when going to the Guru’s feet, automatically have their straight Gurmukhi beards touch the Guru’s feet. How can trimmed or tucked beards touch the Guru’s feet? When trimmed and tucked bearded ones go to bow before Satguru Guru Granth Sahib, their trimmed and tucked beards do not touch the Guru’s feet. These days it has become a fashion that however many Sikhs we see, all compete to bend and twist their beards upwards. Some tuck them up so high after slicking them that it’s as if they don’t even want people to know they have a beard. Before it was just army Sikhs who rolled their beards but now all the Sikh employees of every department roll them. They also come to the Gurdwara. The bow before Guru Granth Sahib and their beards cannot touch the Guru’s feet. They are following into the imitation of the Hindus. In their hearts they wonder why did they ever get a beard? But now they must keep the beard they have. They want to keep calling themselves Sikhs but also want to keep their Departmental Officers pleased. But even then they are not pleased. Those people would be happy only if all Sikhs became cleanshaven like them. The self-seeking Sikhs cannot fall into the habit of trimming their beards like the Hindus, but by twisting and bending their beards up, they try to get the selfish happiness of the Hindus. This self-interested selfishness will be of no use to the Sikhs and it will end up ruining their spirituality. Those Sikhs who are spoiled by self-interest will make excuses that, “how will rolling one’s beard ruin spirituality? Spirituality is related to the mind/heart.” In reply to those tucked bearded ones, we reply, “ਕਬੀਰਮਨੁਮੂੰਡਿਆਨਹੀਕੇਸਮੁੰਡਾਏਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋਕਿਛੁਕੀਆਸੋਮਨਕੀਆਮੂੰਡਾਮੂੰਡੁਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥ (p. 1369). At this, those who cut the hair on their faces and heads cannot think of any reply, but rely on the next vaak: “ਭਾਵੈਲਾਂਬੇਕੇਸਕਰੁਭਾਵੈਘਰਰਿਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ (1365). They do not understand the true meaning of this Gurvaak. The true essence of this vaak is criticism of the manmati practice of growing one’s hair like dread-locked non-Sikhs do and then keeping them unnaturally by making them to into dust matted dreadlocks. It has been clearly explained that to unnaturally grow ones hair in this way or to cut them off are both practices to be abandoned. Kesh come naturally and one should leave them in their natural state. The practices of making the hair fashionable or to decorate them are both proscribed. Hearing this answer, people with cut hair and beards cannot think of any further reply and their mouths are locked. But our brothers who roll their beards, and especially those who tie them into a ball on their chin, make the excuse that “Look, hair on the head are kept in a knot, if we keep our beards in a knot or roll it up, what’s the problem?” It is enough of an answer to them to say that a Gursikh must keep Dashmesh jee’s rehit as paramount and to obey all his orders. For example, “Kangha dono(n) vakat kar, paag chunay kar baa(n)dhaiee.” A dastaar can only be tied on the head “chuN kay” if the kesh on the head are kept from scattering and are kept in a jooRaa. But there is no need to do this with the beard by slicking it and twisting and rolling it. It is even a greater manmat to tie a thaathee or net on the beard and then come to the divan. I have seen many faithful rehit-keeping Sikhs who while spending their entire lives in the army did not roll their beards. It is also a maha-manmat for army Sikhs to obey such a law that says Singh-Soldiers must roll their beards. To obey this is a very big weakness. This weakness has occurred to such and extent that seeing the Sikh soldiers, Sikhs in other departments have also begun to roll their beards. It is now to such an extent that without any shame, employees from all the departments now come to the Guru’s Divaan with tied beards. It is considered a thing of pride to come to the divaan with a tied beard. Today in the Guru’s Divaan, you will see very few such Sikhs who have Gurmukhi beards. Otherwise everyone is in the habit of coming to Divaans with tied beards and will not feel and shyness about it. These self-interested so-called Sikhs feel that obeying their so-called Government’s order is prime. It is because of this that they have turned their back on the true Government’s true orders. It is a danger that the state of some of these so-called Sikhs may not reach such a level that they drown in the atheist movement and become atheists. Hopefully they will not turn their backs altogether on beard and kesh in the desire for higher offices and positions, like many employees and government officers, especially army ones have, cutting their kesh and beards, all for false offices. The false ranks of Captain, Colonel, General, etc. will be of no use to them and they will be left here. In the Guru’s court they will receive such shoves that their false government’s appeals will not be enough and they will be left in regret. It is not at all my belief that every Sikh who ties his beard can even dream of such a thing. They have a firm belief in keeping the beard and kesh, they are simply stuck in the custom of tying the beard after seeing others do the same. But this is such a horrible custom that it is growing every day. It is to such an extent that no Sikh from any department can be found who does not tie his beard. It is with regret that I say that there are some Sikhs, whose wives like to see their husbands with rolled beards. Many cases have been peshed in the Jatha where Singhs have been asked why they are not living with their wives and they answer clearly that their wives want them to remove their black hairs and only then will they live with them. But these faithful Singhs did not accept this manmat-filled order of their wives and thought it best to leave them. After investigation it has been found out that some did indeed pull out their black hairs. Some so-called Sikh women do not find it manmat to remove their other bodily hair. Those half-baked Sikhs are maha-manmatis who disrespect their beards for their perceived physical beauty. To make the beard look beautiful by tucking, twisting and bending is a big manmat. “ਸੋਸਿਖੁਸਖਾਬੰਧਪੁਹੈਭਾਈਜਿਗੁਰਕੇਭਾਣੇਵਿਚਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਆਪਣੈਭਾਣੈਜੋਚਲੈਭਾਈਵਿਛੁੜਿਚੋਟਾਖਾਵੈ ॥” (601-602). According to the above Gurvaak, those manmukhs that daily cut their beards abandon Vahiguru’s will and go by their own mind’s decisions, they will be lost and receive pains. Those true Sikhs who accept Guru-Vahiguru’s will, as the true will never cut their beards or kesh in defiance of Vahiguru’s bhaaNaa. Only those are the Guru’s sevak Sikhs who accept every hukam from baaNee as true. To meditate on naam with every breath and every second is the true service of Vahiguru. Those Guru’s Sikhs who serve like this are day and night in bliss. Those are Guru Nanak’s true beloved ones who have true Gurmukhi beards. These Guru’s beloveds appear as Gurmukhs in Vahiguru’s Dargah as well. They recite Vahiguru’s true naam every second from their mouths and on their faces are true and beautiful Gurmukhi beards. From their Gurmukhi mouths, the true naam’s simran occurs with every breath. At every breath they are earning the wealth of true naam. In their hearts, the true Gurmat roopee word “Vahiguru” is always residing. And because of it being in them at every second, they are always absorbed in Satguru Guru Vahiguru’s true form. Because they are patrons of the capital of the true naam, they are the truly wealthy ones and the wealth of true naam is always with them. It is because of this that those Gurmukhs with Gurmukhi beards, from the house of the Guru, attain the highest levels. The sound of true naam always comes in their ears at every second because in every way, their faith and trust rest in naam simran. Because of this, they only engage themselves in the true task of reciting naam. Only the presence of these Gurmukhs is beautiful and appropriate in Vahiguru’s true court and only these Gurmukhs are absorbed in Vahiguru’s form. Guru Nanak Sahib says that without a true Satguru, the true naam of Vahiguru cannot be attained. Those manmukhs, who refuse the orders given in GurbaaNee, are always caught in the web of delusion and leave the world in delusion. This writing is the explanation of the essence of the Gur-Shabad given at the beginning of the article. The meaning of the entire shabad is that only those Gurmukhs who have Gurmukhi open-beards have successful (naam) earnings. And those are the ones who will be secure in the next world. Reasons for the Disrespect of the Beard Those who are misguided from Tat-Gurmat and then for selfish reasons twist and bend their beards are in serious danger of one day becoming patit from Sikhi by cutting off their beards. These self-interested individuals can be classified in the following categories for the reasons they twist their beards: a)It is most important to mention first those hypocrites who tuck their beards in order to get married. It is a set belief in their minds that without tucking their beards they will not be able to get married or engaged. Some such hypocrites have been seen who for the reason of marriage have for years kept their beards rolled but their enagement or marriage still has not taken place. During this long period, their tied beards have grown even longer. What can these unfortunate ones do? IT was for fear of the long beard that they started rolling it and now their fear has materialised so that their beards are even longer than before because they were always busy with beautifying and decorating them. Some have diamonds (white hairs) come into their beards and they don’t fear even plucking them. Some even put dung (dye) on so that they look like boys and they can catch some young girl. Those who have been given faith by Satugur, they never fall into these practices. Here I have remembered the example of a faithful Singh whose example is essential to write here. One rehitvaan faithful Singh had his Singhnee pass away. His friends and associates encouraged him to get married again and even arranged an alliance. When the engagement had taken place, the worldly people began to tell this faithful Singh that he should either colour his beard or pluck his white hairs. That faithful Singh gave such a reply that slapped everyone in the face: “I don’t have any need to accept such an alliance for which I have to colour my face black. First you tell me to make my face black (colour my beard) and then you’ll tell me to tie my beard. Secondly, that which you’ve said about plucking my white hairs is a manmat thought, totally against Gurmat. Gurmat teaches us that these are not white-hairs but diamonds. Should I sell them for nothing?” It happened before me that many manmati men and women tried their hardest to make him fall from his trust and faith in Gurmat but that Guru’s beloved had such good and beautiful intentions that he did not listen to anybody. He married with his beautiful Gurmukhi beard which had diamonds in it that stayed just the way they were. I myself was at this marriage. His anand kaaraj took place in chaRdee kalaa with his full beard along with the diamonds. Even today that marriage is solid and blissful. I am a sacrifice to such a Guru’s Singh who has such beautiful sentiments. So those individuals who are stuck in Aan-mat (non-Gurmat) and tie and tuck their beards, are in the end just left that way. It is such stubborn individuals who consider their belief in tied bards to be true Parm Gurmat, according to their own mind, and preach it as well. Ahead these deluded people will have blows to their faces who while calling themselves Sikhs do not stop from advising people to tie their beards and remove their diamonds (white-hairs). The second type of self-interested people who tie their beards are those who do so for the sake of their jobs. These people who are interested in their jobs have put their faith and trust-filled Sikhi at a very big risk. C) The third category contains those Sikhs who only for reasons of embarrassment split their beards into two parts and tie it when they go to work and when they come to Sangat, make it straight and Gurmukhi.. One Singh who was a professor was about to begin doing keertan with his beard rolled but I did not let him sit and told him to open his beard. In a desperate tone he said that “at least in this town, where I am a professor, give me permission to do keertan with my beard rolled. We did not agree at all. It came out that the boys in his college where he was professor would call him “Mullah-MullahNa” and tease him when he would open his beard. Those Gursikhs who are the Guru’s stars and have true faith in Gurmat have for years been headmasters in schools and principles in colleges but they maintained their Gurmukhi beards. They did not even waver a little. from http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,5814,6237