Very Interesting Critique Of Sgpc Rehat Maryada By Taksaal

[Guest Wake Up]

Chatanga actually we do have the same capabilities, just in different zones of the same curve. So while the typical male may be stronger and able to lift more it doesn't mean a woman can't lift at all. And there is a big grey area. Just because most men are stronger doesn't mean we tell ALL women to shut up and get in the kitchen. If a woman is capable in a certain area and can do the job she should not be precluded just because she is a female. We can't say ALL males are this and ALL females are that. 

Also referring to the above you can't say a woman must serve her husband from the above. It's more like see these women are enjoying and deriving pleasure from serving their husband so that's how we are comparing. But it's not an instruction saying women must serve men. Also while it's not wrong for a wife to serve her husband as service is done out of love,  but a husband should also serve his wife in turn equally. They should serve each other. Neither should see the other AS God but rather both should see the divine in each other. The happiest couples I know cook meals together as a family and take turns serving. But no, wives are not forced to serve husbands and the husbands get off Scott free. Wives are not free live in house maids for men. So don't forget to mention that men also must serve their wives. 

Same with sons and parents. Think about it what would happen if a couple has only daughters? They are out of luck? Their daughters shouldn't help them or care for them in their old age? Is it wrong if parents serve their son dinner? 

The true essence of Gurbani is teaching equality and serving each other. Rest is cultural and yes some cultural norms of the time are used as comparisons but they aren't instructions saying they must be followed. 

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, Guest Wake Up said:

Wives are not free live in house maids for men.

Guest 
It goes both ways because the sexes are interlinked.

You have to remember that in those societies where wife is housemaid, the husband is a workhorse. Do you think that the men want to spend all their time away from their family to work? No they have no choice but to work to support their family.

Now that's a very negative way to put it "housemaids" and "workhorses" but essentially it means specialization. The wives specialized inside house job. The husband specialized in the outside house job.

That's called the division of labour.

They divided the labour according to the strength and capability of the sex.

What allowed humans to beat neanderthals in the game of life, is that we had much more specialization in our society. We divided labour amongst men and women. And we also divided labour amongst different people. Each man of our society specialized in something.  One was a potter, another a warrior, a priest, a blacksmith, a weaver.

And our kind of humans did this to a much greater extent than our cousin humans, the neanderthals.

Now what I said here - The wives specialized inside house job. The husband specialized in the outside house job. - Is not entirely true because the inside home job is not as difficult as the outside home jobs.

So wives would sometimes help their husbands by unloading some of the work. And when they did they again divided the labour by sex. When farmer's wives helped their farmer husbands in the fields, they did the light work, whereas their husbands did the heavy lifting.

This is the reality of the human existence.

It is the division of labour.

[Guest Wake Up]

Division of labour is fine as long as every happy. It should be the choice of the couple what they want to do.abour is also divided by mental ability too and also dexterity and in today's world these are far more important than brute force in 90% of careers. What Chatanga was saying is that women must serve their husbands (and not the other way around) even today when both work. I agree if one spouse is not contributing financially they should not be able to sit around and do nothing on the sofa all day (male or female!).

But what Chatanga was saying is that it is always the wife's duty to serve her husband and not the other way around. So even when you have both spouses working full time it's still her job to do all the housework and cooking and serve it to him on a silver platter.  I was pointing out that the shabad was only using a cultural reference for THAT time in history as a comparison and that the shabad is not implying that women always must serve the man and not the other way around. He also mentioned sons and parents and I pointed out that too is cultural. In reality all humans should seek to serve all others. Leave the how up to each couple to decide how to do that between themselves. In today's world that usually means splitting the house tasks and not shoving them all on the woman because most couples even in India both work nowadays at least in the cities. 

 

[JasperS]

BhagatSingh Ji, the issue is in stating that one gender must look at the other gender as being in a higher status over them enough so to see them as God. While as I said before seeing God in everyone is the whole point, telling one gender outright in a maryada, they have to see the other AS God while not the other way around is the issue. The way its written implies authority of one over the other, which is wrong thinking. Otherwise women are basically marrying themselves into bonded subjection. That doesn't agree with Gurbani. 

As for who does what in a marriage, leave it up to the couple to decide. For some that may mean the husband works and she stays at home, but it is agreed upon by both, not forced on either. For others it might mean both working and both sharing in the housework. Still, some couples the woman works while the man stays at home for various reasons (medical, loss of job, or simply choice because she was making more). If it works for them, its unfair to teach that Gurbani says it must be the woman doing all the cooking and serving the man. Service goes both ways, and yes that service can entail the husband cooking and cleaning for too, and I am not afraid to practice what I preach either. 

[tva prasad]

Just now, BhagatSingh said:

 

 

They divided the labour according to the strength and capability of the sex.

 

bro, r u saying that one's capability and strength depends on their gender. Cause if u r i will have to disagree with u. Capability and strength depends on an individual not gender. It varies from individual to individual.

[chatanga1]

4 hours ago, JasperS said:

the issue is in stating that one gender must look at the other gender as being in a higher status over them enough so to see them as God.

Jaspreet, you are getting stuck on this notion of serving husband as "God". If a woman does serve her husband as "God" does that make him a "God"? No it doesn't. In the same way it doesn't make the woman inferior by serving her "God". The inference seems to be to serve her husband on the terms, of love, respect, loyalty etc, not to worship him, in the hope that one day he will free her from 84 lakh joon.

 

4 hours ago, JasperS said:

Otherwise women are basically marrying themselves into bonded subjection. That doesn't agree with Gurbani. 

In our culture, and yes I have used the word culture, the woman always leaves her home to go to her husbands home. Parents "give away" their daughter. Why ? Why can't parents "give away" their sons?

Gurbani never talks of sons being given away, even in metaphors but always of the the female being given away, or leaving their homes. (Another case of discrimination?)

Why did your father in law tie YOUR pala to his daughter? If you wanted equality so much, why didn't you get her pala tied to you?

So to talk about bonded subjection is one thing, but the thing you can't ever forget is that she was bonded to you. You were not bonded to her.

 

4 hours ago, JasperS said:

As for who does what in a marriage, leave it up to the couple to decide.

Absolutely, and as time progresses, couples will find and determine each others strenghts and weaknesses and adjust accordingly.

 

4 hours ago, JasperS said:

it might mean both working and both sharing in the housework.

Typical indian families always had both husband and wife working.

 

4 hours ago, JasperS said:

its unfair to teach that Gurbani says it must be the woman doing all the cooking and serving the man.

Gurbani doesn't say that though does it? Gurbani does tell us that a premi of Waheguru should derive the same pleasure from serving/worshipping Waheguru, as woman gets from serving her husband.

 

[tva prasad]

Just now, chatanga1 said:

The inference seems to be to serve her husband on the terms, of love, respect, loyalty etc, not to worship him, in the hope that one day he will free her from 84 lakh joon.

 

bro, doesn't the woman need and want mukhti from 84 lakh joon? Treating someone with respect does not grant that person (one getting respect) mukhti from 84 lakh joon.Even sant jarnail Singh ji bhinderwale said women should be given a equal status to men (watch his speech on youtube called "women and sikhi" he clears misconceptions)

[BhagatSingh]

2 hours ago, tva prasad said:

bro, r u saying that one's capability and strength depends on their gender. Cause if u r i will have to disagree with u. Capability and strength depends on an individual not gender. It varies from individual to individual.

I am with you.

PS Be careful with how you spend your energy. Disagreement can be a huge drain on bhagti.

[BhagatSingh]

6 hours ago, JasperS said:

 telling one gender outright in a maryada, they have to see the other AS God while not the other way around is the issue.

You have no idea what Maryada says.

Read the guidelines for husbands, to enjoy their wives only and not bring any other woman into the mind.

This means to see your wife as Goddess. (although it is not said in those terms for the reasons I'll give below)

When you are having sex with your woman and your full unwavering attention is on her, then she will transform into a Goddess, and if she does the same towards you, then you'll be her God.

It works in any type of activity you do with your wife. Any time you engage her, if your full presence is there with her (ie seeing her as Goddess) then... IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!

So

Learn to see you wife as Goddess
Step 1 Engage in activities with your wife
Step 2 Be fully present with her

However do not consider your wife as superior. This way you'll make her feel as if she is your Goddess.

Remember this - Husbands and Wives both serve each other but they do so in very different ways.

After you learn to see your wife as the Goddess if you start worshipping her as Goddess, putting her above yourself, then she will lose attraction for you. If she worships you as God, meaning puts you above herself, then you (as a man) will not lose attraction for her. In fact, the opposite will happen to you, your attraction for her will grow.

Husbands are more attracted to their wife, if she puts him above everything else and they feel more love towards her. Wives don't like it when their husbands place them above everything else, they lose respect for him if he does.

This is basic male and female nature.

And you have no choice in the matter because attraction is not a choice.

From a female perspective, a wife wants to feel that her husband is superior to her. She wants to feel that her husband is the coolest, that he is THE SH*T. Otherwise she simply loses attraction.

You can see this in Japan where women refuse to marry men who earn less than them. It is becoming an increasingly common phenomenon there that women are earning more.

Also google - the Herbivore men phenomenon

A woman is only really attracted to a man as long as she sees the man as slightly higher than her, more ambitious than her, more aggressive, stronger, smarter, etc etc it's a long list. She is attracted to him when he leads her to good experiences.


Whereas men readily marry down and support a non-working wife, women rarely marry down and rarely support a non-working husband. And if they do they are often very resentful. A few rare and blessed women still maintain respect for their husband in that arrangement where they are earning and their husband is not. God bless those women, but the others are not like them.

Look. It would be awesome if this was not this way. Then we'd all live in the mythical equality utopia, where all men and all women are equal. Where children are delivered by storks because female pregnancy is the leading cause of inequality in our society. The male and female roles are a consequence of the debilitating effects of pregnancy on women.

Anyway, this equality utopia would be awesome!

Equality, YEAH! 

(It's a such a good word - equality.)

But reality is not like this. Mother nature has designed this system of women seeking after men who are superior to them.

Again, some women don't, they seek other qualities, that's great. I hope they are able to maintain attraction for their husbands and a strong bond with them in the long run.

Also read Kama Sutra on how to be a good husband.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/kama/index.htm

And how could I forget - The Way of the Superior man.
https://www.amazon.ca/Way-Superior-Man-Spiritual-Challenges/dp/1591792576

[paapiman]

19 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Another line from Gurbani says " In the midst of this world, do seva,
and you shall be given a place of honor in the Court of the Lord.
Says Nanak, swing your arms in joy! ||4||33|| " Ang 26 SGGS

But there has to be a structure to this seva. As per sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh, the son who didn't do sewa of  his parents, his sewa was nisfal in the Guru's court. A son's dharam is to do seva of his parents whilst they are alive. A woman similarly has to do sewa of her husband otherwise. It is her Istri-dharam.

It should be very easy for a Sikh to understand the above.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

7 hours ago, tva prasad said:

bro, doesn't the woman need and want mukhti from 84 lakh joon?

Of course bro, that is the aim of human jama.

 

7 hours ago, tva prasad said:

Treating someone with respect does not grant that person (one getting respect) mukhti from 84 lakh joon.

 

Exactly, which is why the inference to wman looking at their husbands as God is not refering to any heirarchy in the relationship. It's just a term to signify respect, love and honour etc.

[Guest Wake Up]

Yes wives have to do seva of their husbands but their husbands also have to do seva of their wives. That's the whole point of marriage!

@chatanga1  yes it's culture I am glad you agree. And you are not getting the difference between a cultural reference and a direct instruction. Saying that devotees derive the same pleasure as... is not the same as saying wives MUST derive pleasure out of serving the husband or that wives MUST serve the husband. It's also not saying the husband can't serve the wife or derive pleasure out of serving the wife as well. It's using one cultural reference - at that time women were told their husbands were  in authority over them basically their lord. That was cultural and prominent in Hindu ideology, easily seen in Laws according to Manu. That was used as a reference only. Most of the new Sikhs were coming from Hindu background. So it made sense to use those references that they would understand.

But here is the kicker!! it's actually turning the idea of wife serving the husband as a God on its head and saying see how wives were deriving pleasure out of serving the husband as a God? [Instead] devotees derive this same pleasure out of serving God. It's saying instead to derive this pleasure out of serving God only. (Which makes sense because God is the only truth there are no others. God is the same ONE soul behind my wife and myself. So therefore instead of the old way where only one spouse served the other now this new radical way the Gurus taught is service BOTH ways between a husband and wife as equals because both are God!!!!!! 

Not sure about JasperS but in our case my wife did not move to my place. When we married we bought a flat together just us. And the pala? It was her Mother who gave it as her Father is deceased. And her Mother made it clear in no way was she given though as some object. None of us look at it that way. She was never bonded to me to be a servant to be live in house maid to me. My Mother in law made it abundantly clear to never smother out my wifes talents and ambitions and turn her into A personal maid. Or else her family would not accept me. We both work we both make close to same salary which varies between us based on overtime and other things. Some months she has made more than me but do I feel butthurt about it? No! I'm proud of her and keep encouraging her!

I choose too see my wife as God as well as her seeing me as God. We are following Gurbani. Not culture. 

 

@BhagatSingh Ji sorry but what you wrote is a load of crap. Maybe centuries ago when women were indoctrinated into the idea of them being lesser than men their whole lives and then the only way to compete in society was to choose a high status man and live vicariously through him. In todays world women no longer need to base their status off what man they are with. They are actually people with their own statuses now. The old cultural ideas no longer hold and that's a good thing not a bad thing. Let me ask you if you could have a woman who would be satisfied being your equal and you treating her as such would you be happy? Or do you want a subordinate women? If you answer you want a subordinate women then it's more speaking about your inability to see God in her than it is about any perceived statuses of either of you. However making the statement that men have to treat women as lesser than themselves for women to be happy is excuse me - bullshit. No woman all through history ever actually wanted that! That's like saying slaves weren't happy unless being treated as inferior by their masters. That shudras aren't happy unless they are being treated as inferior by high caste. That's all bs because nobody actually wants to be in the lower position. Nobody wants to be  treated as inferior or made to feel lesser. 

I know a Sikh couple in USA she is a doctor making 6 figures and he works in IT as a network administrator supervisor making about 75K. Who has higher status in that couple? When she works far more hours than he does, you can't possibly say it's still her duty to cook and serve him when she gets home late at 8pm while he has been home since 5pm!! Do his extra muscles actually play any part in their marriage when speaking about status and who is in authority? Does the fact that she will carry their child matter (when speaking about authority) when she has paid maternity leave? They are very happily married by the way. He would never dream of trying to treat her as lesser than him! She followed Gurmat principles when choosing a husband meaning status and caste do not matter his job doesn't matter what matters is if he is a good Sikh. And he is. They see each other as God and serve each other as God. Meaning both put each other above themselves. 

I know another similar Sikh couple in Canada where the wife is a successful dentist owning two separate clinics. Her husband is a police officer. Meaning her income is waaaaaay above his. Her education is way above his. Does he care? No they love each other beyond words and treat each other as equals! 

If any couple followed what you suggested above: that women put men above themselves and men put themselves above women, then we have failed as a species and are no better than animals. Because it's in this human body we have the ability to see and serve God in all. Nobody should put themselves above another. A husband should never put himself and his interests and desires above his wife. He should swallow his pride (as I have done) and serve his wife with all humility. 

[JasperS]

8 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Jaspreet, you are getting stuck on this notion of serving husband as "God". If a woman does serve her husband as "God" does that make him a "God"? No it doesn't. In the same way it doesn't make the woman inferior by serving her "God". The inference seems to be to serve her husband on the terms, of love, respect, loyalty etc, not to worship him, in the hope that one day he will free her from 84 lakh joon.

 

And you are saying a husband should not serve his wife on the terms of love respect loyalty etc? And yes, I agree no human should worship another human. That is reserved for Waheguru alone. Point blank, husband and wife serve each other. There is no rule saying women must do so while its optional for men. It goes both ways. And yes that service can be the same type and ways also. Mutual service.  If both spouses see God in each other it works. The wording in the taksal maryada however, makes it sound like women are actually instructed to do that while men are told a different instruction more akin to seeing their wife as a follower. It only works if both see each other as God. Or else you have a hierarchy. 
 

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

Exactly, which is why the inference to wman looking at their husbands as God is not refering to any heirarchy in the relationship. It's just a term to signify respect, love and honour etc.

Exactly. Glad you agree! As I said this love respect and honour goes BOTH ways. Not only one. The husband also is to look at their wife as God as well. Thats the actual truth to reality. Because God IS ALL!  Every human is actually a character God playing in this grand play! But I am glad you acknowledge it has nothing to do with authority or hierarchy in the relationship. Many Singhs think it does. And they think it goes only one way. 

 

8 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

In our culture, and yes I have used the word culture, the woman always leaves her home to go to her husbands home. Parents "give away" their daughter. Why ? Why can't parents "give away" their sons?

Gurbani never talks of sons being given away, even in metaphors but always of the the female being given away, or leaving their homes. (Another case of discrimination?)

So to talk about bonded subjection is one thing, but the thing you can't ever forget is that she was bonded to you. You were not bonded to her.

Again we agree this is cultural alone. Its not in all cultures, nor is it an imperative. And Sikhi surpasses culture. If its to truly be a universal religion then it has to surpass Punjabi culture. It's simply referencing what was the norm in that time. Heck its not even the norm all the time now in Punjabi families! We actually don't live with my parents, so the whole idea of her being given away to go to MY home is moot. Its OUR home. Both our parents are living in different areas away from us.  My wife was not bonded to me like some slave. Rather, we both agreed to travel this path together as ONE. Hence the pala linking us. Who cares who it was given to or by? I have known marriages where the pala was given by a female family member. And lavaans are circular. Nobody is in front. What matters is we are the same distance from Guru Ji. So we as ONE are travelling around Guru Ji both at the same distance from Guru Ji. The symbolism is clear about equality in Guru Ji's eyes, the only eyes which matter! From the sangat persepctive sure I might have led us into the circle but if we are supposed to be ONE and recognize that its WAHEGURU in BOTH of us, then there is no male or female. Just ONE soul in two bodies. Ik Jot Due Murti. It was Waheguru who led us as ONE together.  There is no implication of who gets last say in the marriage or who is in charge or who is above the other. Which you already acknowledged above anyway! 
 

8 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Gurbani doesn't say that though does it? Gurbani does tell us that a premi of Waheguru should derive the same pleasure from serving/worshipping Waheguru, as woman gets from serving her husband.

 

That doesn't mean that same pleasure can't be had by a husband serving his wife. Or that the husband serving the wife is not allowed. Its also not saying my wife has to serve me either. In reality we both serve each other. I am pretty sure in these days with both spouses working, a wife would get pretty tired of always being the one serving a husband who never reciprocates! And I would have to be a pretty selfish person to never want to serve her in return. I also see her as God. This is what gurbani tells me to do! 

 

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Husbands are more attracted to their wife, if she puts him above everything else and they feel more love towards her. Wives don't like it when their husbands place them above everything else, they lose respect for him if he does.

This is basic male and female nature.

And you have no choice in the matter because attraction is not a choice.

From a female perspective, a wife wants to feel that her husband is superior to her. She wants to feel that her husband is the coolest, that he is THE SH*T. Otherwise she simply loses attraction.
 

I don't know what kind of women you have been around, but  this is a load of absolute and complete bollocks. No woman actually wants to be treated that way! My wife certainly doesn't want to be my inferior or for me to see her or treat her as lesser than me! That would actually break her heart and make her see me in a lower way! Not a higher way! And by the way we can both be the coolest together!  I am not attracted to subservient women. I am attracted to self confident women who are sure of themselves and what they want in life. And most women do not want to be treated like a lesser being.  If that works for you and you found a woman who is fine with being a submissive, then whatever. But please dont say that is how it is for everyone! In general, knowing someone sees you as lesser than them actually hurts. Women going for successful men is programmed. The only reason it wasn't reciprocated until recently, is because women were saddled with pregnancies etc before and unable to become successful in the society. Now, with women working as well and having their own lives and careers outside the home, and with the advent of birth control to plan families better, men are also choosing women who are more successful rather than less successful in society. Have a look at the matrimonial sites and you will see women feel the need to list their degrees and career accomplishments just as much as men. Its because the men are also looking for successful women. And if you are successful yourself you have better chances of landing a successful spouse. I actually know very few Singhs nowdays who would marry a housewife who has no education or career. 

 

 

[tva prasad]

 

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

PS Be careful with how you spend your energy. Disagreement can be a huge drain on bhagti.

never knew that thanx 4 telling me. What effects would it have on u?

[paapiman]

On 10/3/2016 at 7:13 AM, chatanga1 said:

ਜਿਉ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਘਰਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੈ ਅਤਿ ਲੋਚੈ ਭਗਤੀ ਭਾਇ ॥

The devoted wife in her husband's home has a great longing to perform loving devotional service to him;

 

ਬਹੁ ਰਸ ਸਾਲਣੇ ਸਵਾਰਦੀ ਖਟ ਰਸ ਮੀਠੇ ਪਾਇ ॥

She prepares and offers to him all sorts of sweet delicacies and dishes of all flavors.

 

ਤਿਉ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤ ਸਲਾਹਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥

In the same way, the devotees praise the Word of the Guru's Bani, and focus their consciousness on the Lord's Name.

 

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਆਗੈ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਸਿਰੁ ਵੇਚਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਇ ॥

They place mind, body and wealth in offering before the Guru, and sell their heads to Him.

Salok Vaaraan and Vadheek Guru Amar Das

 

Isn't this discrimination?

Add to the above the below:

 

ਜੇ ਪਿਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਰੁ ਹੰਢਣਾ ਸਤੁ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਰੇ।

Jay Piru Bahu Gharu Handdhanaa Satu Rakhai Naaray.

जे पिरु बहु घरु हंढणा सतु रखै नारे ।

If the husband enjoys (immorally) at many houses, the wife should preserve her chastity.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩੫ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੦ ਪੰ. ੩

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

14 hours ago, tva prasad said:

never knew that thanx 4 telling me. What effects would it have on u?

It can drain your energy and cause your mind to be more distracted, and take your focus away from God and focus it on the thing you are disagreeing with. It will also make you unhappy.

Disagreement will generate a lot of energy in you but towards the opposing idea or argument that you are resisting. Thus causing further entanglement in Maya.

IMO this energy is better spent towards the pursuit of God.

[paapiman]

16 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

IMO this energy is better spent towards the pursuit of God.

Well said brother.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

@JasperS

From your post it seems like there is a misunderstanding.

I am not talking about treating your wife like shit. I'm not talking about seeing your wife as an incapable adult, and I am not talking about anyone's qualifications or degrees either.

The whole first part of my post was that you should learn to see your wife as Goddess and treat her well. I posed a link to Kama Sutra and The Way of a Superior Man, which talk about the the right way to treat your wife and fulfill her desires.

So I hope that is clear and we can continue to have a clean nuanced discussion.

When we are talking about superior/inferior, we are talking about who is the "coolest". Who see the other as more cool, more "value-giving".

If your wife finds you attractive, most likely she sees you as more cooler than her. She sees you just a bit higher than her level.

If you were too superior, she would feel that she doesn't come close to you that you don't deserve her because you are out of her reach. That's not good. If she saw you as inferior to her, she would not find you attractive. That's not good either.

God has designed her as such that in order to feel attracted to you, she should feel that she is close to your level but you are a bit above her level. Like how you would view your older brother, or any older sibling. You think your older brother is the coolest guy ever, and you wana be like him. You admire him and you respect him.

Your older brother has this presence and he makes you feel like a boy around him because you feel safe around him. He will protect you if you are ever in danger. He's got your back if you are ever in any kind of trouble, whether financial or anything else. You can relax in his presence and be playful and open up about anything.

He's like a father-figure as well.

This is how your wife should feel around you.

[JasperS]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

@JasperS

From your post it seems like there is a misunderstanding.

I am not talking about treating your wife like shit. I'm not talking about seeing your wife as an incapable adult, and I am not talking about anyone's qualifications or degrees either.

The whole first part of my post was that you should learn to see your wife as Goddess and treat her well. I posed a link to Kama Sutra and The Way of a Superior Man, which talk about the the right way to treat your wife and fulfill her desires.

So I hope that is clear and we can continue to have a clean nuanced discussion.

When we are talking about superior/inferior, we are talking about who is the "coolest". Who see the other as more cool, more "value-giving".

If your wife finds you attractive, most likely she sees you as more cooler than her. She sees you just a bit higher than her level.

If you were too superior, she would feel that she doesn't come close to you that you don't deserve her because you are out of her reach. That's not good. If she saw you as inferior to her, she would not find you attractive. That's not good either.

God has designed her as such that in order to feel attracted to you, she should feel that she is close to your level but you are a bit above her level. Like how you would view your older brother, or any older sibling. You think your older brother is the coolest guy ever, and you wana be like him. You admire him and you respect him.

Your older brother has this presence and he makes you feel like a boy around him because you feel safe around him. He will protect you if you are ever in danger. He's got your back if you are ever in any kind of trouble, whether financial or anything else. You can relax in his presence and be playful and open up about anything.

He's like a father-figure as well.

This is how your wife should feel around you.

Well then that has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority. People are 'cool' in different ways. For example she can do some things that I would never be able to. She KNOWS I look up to her on those things. (and they are not typical women things either before you assume). There are other things I do that she looks up to me for. If she had to look up to me for everything I know she would feel inferior and not be happy. I think we have everything very balanced out and neither see each other as less cool in any way. 

However this has nothing to do with who is in control or authority in the marriage. And it has nothing to do with who should get more respect. Both should equally respect each other. And in reality, the above that you described is only semantics in the end, because in reality, you are telling me to see her as equal (a goddess corresponding to her seeing me as a god) and then telling me to not let her know I see her that way. In reality I still see her that way! So why hide my feelings? Isn't that the same as just being emotionally cold?

Anyway we agree then, that this has nothing to do with who has last say, who is in authority, or who is better than who - or who is leader and who is follower. Its just about personal views (and apparently hiding them on one side). However my issue with taksal maryada is that the way that is worded, sounds like its dictating authority and hierarchy. That the husband is in authority over the wife. Because her instruction is to see him as God while his is not to see her as goddess but instead to see her as something more akin to a follower. I can't do that. Gurbani tells me to see her as my equal, that the differences in physical bodies are false, and that's how I see things. I can't ever change that. 

By the way veer ji I never suggested that you treat your wife like shit.  I hope you didn't take it that way. But I was getting a strong feeling that you do believe in hierarchy when it comes to authority and subjection or obedience, and serving being only one direction. That is where we have to disagree. I serve my wife all the time. I make her dinner, I serve it to her, I do laundry, I do my part around the flat. And I don't feel in any way emasculated by doing so. I changed our daughter's diapers. Even the shitty ones. I remember once taking my daughter out when she was 1 and a half. And I had to change her in the men's room in the shopping centre. Though I got some looks from other men who were also likely Fathers, it didn't bother me one bit because in the end, I am the one who wins out, I get to have a strong bond with my daughter by actually interacting with and caring for her. 

 

[JasperS]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

Add to the above the below:

 

ਜੇ ਪਿਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਰੁ ਹੰਢਣਾ ਸਤੁ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਰੇ।

Jay Piru Bahu Gharu Handdhanaa Satu Rakhai Naaray.

जे पिरु बहु घरु हंढणा सतु रखै नारे ।

If the husband enjoys (immorally) at many houses, the wife should preserve her chastity.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩੫ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੦ ਪੰ. ੩

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I would say that is just common sense. If your spouse is doing adultery, then do not engage in sexual relations with them.  One very practical reason would be that they could bring home some disease! (This could go both ways) The other of course is that their love is not focused on you anymore, so the spiritual energy that is affected during intimacy is lost and tangled with others and it can have a serious effect on your progression. Some people are actually energy thieves and drain that spiritual energy from others by sleeping around (spiritual vampirism). They actually have a big negative field around them. 

 

[Kuttabanda2]

On October 3, 2016 at 11:50 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Stop adding hyperbole to these discussions. The fact is that neither you or myself would know what the Taksal would do in this situation. In 1982-84 when Taksal was based at Darbar Sahib did they try to change the Rehit Maryada there? Didn't one taksal student read Raagmala at a service at Sri Akal Takht Sahib and suffer a severe rebuke from Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala for doing this? Didn't Jarnial Singh also warn his students that Sri Akal Takht Maryada was to be upheld whilst they were there?

I'm not denying any of the Seva Taksal did in the 80s and 70s. I respect the fact that Baba Gurbachan Singh and his 2 successors respected the Maryada at Akal Takhat. However, that doesn't mean I'd like them to be in charge of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib as the authority over the Panth. Indeed I won't know what they would do in such situations, no one would. But a track record is sufficient to provide insight in to what might've happened. 

I haven't made any hyperbole as of now. I've been careful not to.  

[BhagatSingh]

@JasperS

Quote

And in reality, the above that you described is only semantics in the end, because in reality, you are telling me to see her as equal (a goddess corresponding to her seeing me as a god) and then telling me to not let her know I see her that way.

I am not saying to withhold such important (romantic) information from her lol.

I am saying - You should learn to see her as Goddess.
And
I am saying - You should also tell her that you see her as such.

In the moment, you have this spiritual experience where you see your wife as Goddess. You should let her know about your experience and feelings, if and when you experience it and feel it. It should come from a place of truth.

Read - Radical Honesty by Blad Blanton.

To clarify...

Of course, you should have a strong focus on positive traits of your wife in your mind. (BTW This does not mean you can't tell her to fix her negatives. See - The Way of the Superior Man - for how to do that in the right way.)

But when I say that you must learn to see her as Goddess, then I am talking about having a spiritual experience. This is a certain kind of experience, where your experience of your wife becomes divine.

There is utmost clarity and tranquility in such a sight.

So this is key.

1. Learn to see your wife as Goddess

You wife should learn to see you as God. Ie you are both having divine experience of each other.

So far so good?

 

Now for the next key.

2. Put your Cause above all else, including her

When I say do not put your wife above you. I mean to not put her above whatever you feel your purpose is in the world.

The initial attraction women have for men is due to men's confidence but in the long-run women want a man who has a cause. They want a man who is working for something greater than him. They want to be a part of the man's purpose in the world and they want to support him in it.

But if the man forgets his cause and runs after the woman, then she can no longer respect him.

 

And this is where the genders are going in different routes -> The husband has a cause who he is working for and the wife is supporting her husband in his cause.

The husband is looking up at his cause, and the wife is looking up at the husband (ie she is attracted to him)

 

Your wife may well be superior to you in many things, most things. But overall she wants to feel as if she has made the right decision in selecting you, ie you being superior to her, meaning more cool than her. We are talking about overall "coolness" or "superiority".

You know your wife is better than you in many things. But her focus is on whether you can do the things that she is looking for in you, one of which is having a cause that you are firmly fixed to.

She perceives you as superior, overall, is when you have a purpose that is greater than you that you worship. So she worships you for worshipping your cause.

You get this dynamic -
Wife worships Husband worships Cause

And with that you end up with this hierarchy -

1 Cause
2 Husband
3 Wife

 

1 hour ago, JasperS said:

Anyway we agree then, that this has nothing to do with who has last say, who is in authority, or who is better than who - or who is leader and who is follower.

Your wife wants you to lead.

She wants you to engage with her by leading her into good experiences.

3. Lead your wife to good experiences

There is nothing wrong with her leading. She can lead, she knows how to lead. But she wants you to lead her.

So if you don't lead her, she will start leading but she will slowly grow resentful and lose attraction for you because she selected you for the ability to lead her to good experiences.

This is why women seek confidence in men. For men it is beauty that attracts us to a woman at first, for women it is confidence.

Confidence is what attracts your wife to you. This is because a man who lacks confidence cannot lead. So she is looking for a leader, and she judges his leadership ability through confidence.

Read - Man lead...: Woman Follows, Everyone Wins  by Ro Elori Cutno. She talks about husband-wife dynamic like a Salsa Dance. She explains that in Salsa Dance one leads the other follows. If both try to lead, the dance does not go well. If no one leads, again the dance does not go well. If one leads and the other follows only then the dance goes well.

This is true in any human interaction that there is a leader there is a follower, and you wife selected you as her leader and she is looking for you to lead her. If you don't lead her, she will start leading but she will slowly grow resentful.

 

So again you have a hierarchy of leadership -

1 Cause
2 Husband
3 Wife

Cause leads Husband leads Wife.

 

Quote

I serve my wife all the time. I make her dinner, I serve it to her, I do laundry, I do my part around the flat. And I don't feel in any way emasculated by doing so. I changed our daughter's diapers. Even the shitty ones. I remember once taking my daughter out when she was 1 and a half. And I had to change her in the men's room in the shopping centre.

Those are all good things. I am assuming your wife has a job.

If she is helping you by earning an income to support the house, then you should help her by doing chores around the house.

There's nothing wrong with that.

[JasperS]

@BhagatSingh Ji, I have to disagree. There is no reason why I have to lead her and she has to follow. As I said, we lead in different areas. Sometimes I lead, sometimes she does. What we looked for in each other was that our "cause" was the same. That being spiritual advancement of both of us and now our daughter. Again, onus is not all on me because she is very knowledgeable and takes the initiative when we do simran etc. most times. She leads in kirtan because she is musical and I am not. I lead in nitnem usually but after the first line, if you are taking turns who is really leading anyway? 
How can I convince you we don't have a hierarchy! She is not beneath me following me. We are walking this path side by side as it was meant to be! I know most Singhs can't understand this but there is a spiritual link there which we experienced which allows us to live this way without false hierarchies.

It's kind of degrading actually to women to say that because that soul ended up in a female body they need to be lead and can't lead on their own? (you'd have to next ask why they ended up in a position where they needed to be lead instead of leading. Like did they mess up last time or something) But obviously many women CAN lead and do it well! (look at the difference in the USA between Hillary and that monkey Trump!) If I were female I am sure I would find it degrading to be told as a woman I had to follow and had people telling me that the only way I would be happy with my husband is if I diverted leadership to him and just followed. It would be pretty degrading don't you think? Especially if I had leadership ability! I'd feel smothered!

In our case, we have surpassed this need for someone to be on top. I know you might not understand or be able to feel it. But reading your posts about God and ONEness and the fact we agree on those I feel you ARE capable of understanding this. The dynamic my wife and I have are what was intended in Creation. Perfect balance, not hierarchy! This is how it is actually supposed to be. We have been married 13 years now, have an 8 year old daughter and we are so closely bonded on every level, including spiritual, that nothing can ever break that. I really do hope you can experience it though! You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge of spiritual experience, so I will pray that you can also experience ONEness in your marriage without it threatening any hierarchy or what seems more like perceived false hierarchy. 

What do you do by the way if your wife has a different cause than yours? Should she give hers up to support yours? Should you both support each other? Or maybe, just maybe you weren't compatible in the first place. Nobody should have to give up their dreams so that someone else can have theirs. There are enough fish in the sea so to speak that everyone can find that person who completes them, and has the same goals in life.  I have experienced so much happiness and joy in marriage I wish I could bottle it up and give it out so others could also experience it! LOL (save for a few minor disagreements through the years which is normal.) 

 

[BhagatSingh]

@JasperS

You have to pay very close attention to what I am saying.

Quote

It's kind of degrading actually to women to say that because that soul ended up in a female body they need to be lead and can't lead on their own?

What did I say previously?

"There is nothing wrong with her leading. She can lead, she knows how to lead.

But she wants you to lead her. "

So pay close attention so that we can both benefit otherwise, I'll probably get frustrated and won't be able to do anything for you.

I can't serve you, if you don't accept my serving.

 

16 hours ago, JasperS said:

Again, onus is not all on me because she is very knowledgeable and takes the initiative when we do simran etc. most times. She leads in kirtan because she is musical and I am not. I lead in nitnem usually but after the first line, if you are taking turns who is really leading anyway? 

If you have made a good choice in selecting a woman, then your wife is a virtuous woman. As you demonstrated your knowledge in advait philosophy, she too can demonstrate knowledge in many areas. She is skilled in many tasks. She is beautiful. She knows what she wants from life. She is spiritual.

That's what you want.

So of course you will find your wife is leading in many areas. That's what you want in a virtuous woman.

When she says she wants to go somewhere, she wants to do something. You can lead her -  You take her hand and say, let's go there and let's do that. And lead her there.

Even when she is leading, if you lead her then that lets her know you care about her. She'll find you more attractive.

She wants you to lead. That's how God has designed her.

 

Look man, we're are all equal. In spiritual reality, there is no hierarchy. This is why it is important to see your wife as divine. Because you will see past the hierarchy.

But on a worldly level, humans have been designed by God to have differences. (These differences lead to hierarchy, and this too is God's hukam.)

Men and women have been designed in certain ways. They are activated and excited by things differently. Things tirgger their biology in different ways.

Men get excited by certain things in women, in ways in which women don't and cannot even imagine.

Similarly women get excited by certain things in men. You might think these things she desires are degrading for her. But that's what she is looking for and those things fulfill her, when she finds a man who can deliver.

I don't judge men and women for what they want or need.

I only understand them.

 

And maybe in your current paradigm, you think differently.

That's fine.

That's God's command.

What I am sharing is for our shared amusement. It find this whole thing amusing myself.

Keep it in the back of your mind, knowing that it is another system that works.

This is what our maryada teaches. Which is not degrading to either man or woman. Rather it aims to fulfill the biological and spiritual desires of both sexes and provide deep well-being in their relationships.

You have a different paradigm. It doesn't mean it is automatically bad. Maryada is coming from a different paradigm to yours. So it doesn't mean it is automatically bad.

[JasperS]

@BhagatSingh Bro, I understand what you are saying and you are still admitting it's a game. Since you are both equal, it's just an illusion this leading and following thing. Think about it, if she makes suggestion to do something, me taking her by the hand is in response to her lead on that thing. I am agreeing with her idea. Similarly I could say hey I'd really like to do this thing sometime, and she could jump on it and make it happen to also make me happy. So in that case is she leading the way based on my suggestion (since you said it would be me leading if she suggested something and I jumped on it and tool her hand). Or is she following my lead as I suggested it?  Do you see what I mean, there is no leading or following. It's just two people who love each other and want to make each other happy and sometimes one leads and sometimes the other does. Seeing it as some sort of hierarchy where I have to always be on top, is illusory.  It just seems like one big game, but what if I told you, and I am 100% serious and truthful about this, my wife and I, we have surpassed the need to play the game at all! And surpassing the game is the true way to see things. 

Anyway I am assuming you are taksali since you said 'our maryada' and the taksal maryada cant be called 'our' as in the panth because it can not usurp the authority that Sikh Rehet Maryada has. I don't care what illusory games people play for romance, what I care about is dictating power and authority. Chatanga rightly said above it has nothing to do with authority and hierarchy in the relationship but you said there is hierarchy (but admittedly you said it was only pertaining to romance I guess?) but where I have issue is that marriage is a partnership of equals in reality (as you pointed out) and so one partner should not be told they are subordinate when it comes to every day living and life as a married couple. What I mean is, telling the wife she must obey while telling the husband he gets full control and some higher status is where I have issue. In eyes of Waheguru both are equal and the wife should have as much say and authority as the husband in their marriage. So I guess I am speaking of practical terms. As long as nothing limits either partner and puts them in a disadvantage to the other. Giving decision making to one partner and telling the other to follow and obey is wrong.  That's how the wording in taksal maryada makes it sound (and posts by member paapiman seem to confirm that meaning) or else it would say that he should also see her as God. And they should both see each other as their faithful spouse. Its the way its worded makes it sound like the wife has to just do whatever he says because he is in authority over her (like Lord or Master). Thats what I would be scared would be shoved down our throats if taksal were in control and srm was replaced with taksal maryada. 

By the way I just saw the post about your artwork on here! Brilliant work! Actually that's an underestimate! I can see your passion in your work! I think I have come across some of it before around the net but now I know I know the artist! Cool man! Nice to meet you!