So-Called Mistakes In Ddt Books

[paapiman]

Taksal books (as is with other sects like AKJ, Nihangs and Missionaries) are full of mistakes. Take the good out of each and leave the bad. No 'sect' is perfect, real Sikhi can be found somewhat in every sect to an extent.

Can you please list all these so-called mistakes for us? I am talking about DDT/Nihang books. AKJ and Missionaries are cults/sects which sprang in Sikhism, several years after tenth master. I don't need to know the mistakes made by AKJ and missionaries as they are not orthodox sects of Sikhism.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 2, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

I already answered in other post One huge error and u know which one I am talking about. I backed the true meaning with Gurbani showing you the full shabad and you still deny Gurbani, while u tried to justify the wrong and twisted meaning by saying "such and such baba said so therefore it must be true" and let me guess "such and such baba was DDT or Nihang??" You know the tuk and the shabad I am talking about and as of yet you have been unsuccessful in proving DDT version. Claiming someone else said so is not proof.

This glaring error takes a meaning straight out of Laws of Manu almost word for word and twists the original meaning of the shabad in SGGSJ which actually serves to uplift women as an individual separate from their physical husband while the twisted wrong DDT version subordinates women to men and actually reinforces the Brahmanistic view that women were only as valuable as an appendage of her physical husband who she was subject to in all things and had to serve through life as his subordinate and be obedient to. Wrong interpretation!!!!

DDT and Nihangs are also sects.... Nihangs actually use intoxicants which are forbidden! And kill animals! While I don't think that any sect is an actual cult they are all sects. And none can honestly actually trace an unbroken lineage all the way back. Some say DDT as it exists now was different than it was prior to Bhindranwale anyway. And that it was revival of some other sect. I think we should avoid all sects and focus only on SGGSJ ourselves rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

Blindly following whatever someone tells you without question and without reading and interpreting for yourself is the sign of a cult just so you know. Not being open to other interpretation from what you have been told and unwilling to openly read and interpret for yourself is a sign of being brainwashed... Not my definition either... Look it up signs of a cult!

[paapiman]

I already answered in other post One huge error and u know which one I am talking about. I backed the true meaning with Gurbani showing you the full shabad and you still deny Gurbani, while u tried to justify the wrong and twisted meaning by saying "such and such baba said so therefore it must be true" and let me guess "such and such baba was DDT or Nihang??" You know the tuk and the shabad I am talking about and as of yet you have been unsuccessful in proving DDT version. Claiming someone else said so is not proof.

This glaring error takes a meaning straight out of Laws of Manu almost word for word and twists the original meaning of the shabad in SGGSJ which actually serves to uplift women as an individual separate from their physical husband while the twisted wrong DDT version subordinates women to men and actually reinforces the Brahmanistic view that women were only as valuable as an appendage of her physical husband who she was subject to in all things and had to serve through life as his subordinate and be obedient to. Wrong interpretation!!!!

DDT and Nihangs are also sects.... Nihangs actually use intoxicants which are forbidden! And kill animals! While I don't think that any sect is an actual cult they are all sects. And none can honestly actually trace an unbroken lineage all the way back. Some say DDT as it exists now was different than it was prior to Bhindranwale anyway. And that it was revival of some other sect. I think we should avoid all sects and focus only on SGGSJ ourselves rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

Blindly following whatever someone tells you without question and without reading and interpreting for yourself is the sign of a cult just so you know. Not being open to other interpretation from what you have been told and unwilling to openly read and interpret for yourself is a sign of being brainwashed... Not my definition either... Look it up signs of a cult!

You were not asked the initial question.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original:

"Unfortunately at many points in our history, true and authentic Sikh rehit became something that was rare. After numerous holocausts and extended periods of living in the jungles of Punjab, differences in rehit crept into the Sikh Panth.

The rehit is a code of conduct which has been passed down from the original amrit sanchaar in an oral fashion. Old rehitnamas, like the one written by Bhai Desa Singh state, (in the seventh stanza) that rehit which the five utter, keep that steadfast in your mind and later in the ninth stanza, that is the first rehit, the one which the five Singhs said in the Paahul ceremony.

The Khalsa Rehit suffered some dilution in the 18th and 19th century. But the Malwa area of Punjab had some areas where this rehit was preserved. Certain movements like the Namdhari movement, which originally had amazing rehit and was originally not a Gurudom, came out of Malwa. Deras like Baba Ajaipal Singh were known for strict rehit. So the original Khalsa rehit was not lost, it was kept in some places.

How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day.

Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada. Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group.

So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history.

It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars.

Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance."

[CdnSikhGirl]

Btw simply stating "DDT is" that is not proof

[paapiman]

Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original:

"Unfortunately at many points in our history, true and authentic Sikh rehit became something that was rare. After numerous holocausts and extended periods of living in the jungles of Punjab, differences in rehit crept into the Sikh Panth.

The rehit is a code of conduct which has been passed down from the original amrit sanchaar in an oral fashion. Old rehitnamas, like the one written by Bhai Desa Singh state, (in the seventh stanza) that rehit which the five utter, keep that steadfast in your mind and later in the ninth stanza, that is the first rehit, the one which the five Singhs said in the Paahul ceremony.

The Khalsa Rehit suffered some dilution in the 18th and 19th century. But the Malwa area of Punjab had some areas where this rehit was preserved. Certain movements like the Namdhari movement, which originally had amazing rehit and was originally not a Gurudom, came out of Malwa. Deras like Baba Ajaipal Singh were known for strict rehit. So the original Khalsa rehit was not lost, it was kept in some places.

How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day.

Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada. Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group.

So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history.

It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars.

Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance."

Off-topic

[Guest]

I believe contextualization into different aspects(rajo, sato, tamo) -multiprong aspects of Sikh/Khalsa is key in order to understand rehitnamas, DDT, nihang books. Whilst there are some discourse in the rehitnamas/ddt books which can be applied to sikhs from walks of life especially inner rehit/spirituality but rest(outer aspects) are need to be read with gurbani underpinning, contextualization.

[CdnSikhGirl]

No it's not you stated above in the original post that AKJ was a cult with no direct lineage. There was your proof. But it's easy to see when you are stumped and can't prove your point you resort to 'off topic' so you can dodge it. You also didn't counter my statement above on one huge error DDT claims. You also dodged that one by saying it wasn't directed at me... How convenient. Here is your chance you asked us to prove these things now it's your turn.

[paapiman]

No it's not you stated above in the original post that AKJ was a cult with no direct lineage. There was your proof. But it's easy to see when you are stumped and can't prove your point you resort to 'off topic' so you can dodge it. You also didn't counter my statement above on one huge error DDT claims. You also dodged that one by saying it wasn't directed at me... How convenient. Here is your chance you asked us to prove these things now it's your turn.

Did you read the initial quote provided in this topic?

The person mentioned AKJ and Missionaries in his statement. That is why, the fact that AKJ and Missionaries sprang in Sikhism, several years after tenth master was stated. I don't need to know the mistakes made by AKJ and Missionaries as they are not orthodox sects of Sikhism.

Anyways, thanks for letting me know. I will edit my original post, to make it more clear.

Edited May 3, 2015 by paapiman

[hsingh8963]

What the mahapursh have said is what Sikhs will go off of..... as these mahapurkhs are backed up with bani and have kamai.

Damdami taksal was started by guru gobind Singh ji.

Sant bhindranwale said that if you think they were lying then fine.

End these arguments and trying to attack Damdami Taksaal and Nihang Singhs. All jathas have respect for each other.

Everyother day these arguments are ruining the forum

[hsingh8963]

What I mean with my first section of text is not that we hold these mahapursh above the guru or anything... but if there is controversy, or confusion mahapursh can be the reliable source for understanding bani and answers

[paapiman]

Did you read the initial quote provided in this topic?

The person mentioned AKJ and Missionaries in his statement. That is why I stated the fact that AKJ and missionaries sprang in Sikhism, several years after tenth master. I don't need to know the mistakes made by AKJ and missionaries as they are not orthodox sects of Sikhism.

Anyways, thanks for letting me know. I will edit my original post, to make it more clear.

[CdnSikhGirl]

He was asking for errors in DDT and I pointed out one huge one which is being used to subordinate Sikh women to men. Anyone can see that shabad is saying the opposite when DDT are interpreting one single tuk to mean something wrong. You can't ignore the context of the shabad.

There is no way to guarantee that DDT teaching today is what Guru Ji taught then. There have been over 300 years for Brahmanistic thought to creep back in. That tuk was twisted to state a line from Laws of Manu nearly word for word!!!

[paapiman]

What the mahapursh have said is what Sikhs will go off of..... as these mahapurkhs are backed up with bani and have kamai.

Damdami taksal was started by guru gobind Singh ji.

Sant bhindranwale said that if you think they were lying then fine.

End these arguments and trying to attack Damdami Taksaal and Nihang Singhs. All jathas have respect for each other.

Everyother day these arguments are ruining the forum

Bro, I am surprised that a person has claimed that Taksal books are full of mistakes. Let's see what he has to say.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Guest]

May be op can tell us, what exactly are mistakes in ddt books. We can discuss it from scholarly perspective. Whilst, we respect all saints and gurmukhs on this forum as we have special section dedicate to saints of sikhism but from scholarly perspective (You be surprised ddt gyanis themselves had many scholarly respectful discussions with scholars in the past), we can discuss the op concerns on what exactly are mistakes and is that something ddt reproduce from thin air or they were simply quoting puratan rehitnamas etc. There are also valid concerns even on as to why ddt scholar gyanis even watering down their own book such as gurmukh parkash to make it compatible with mainstream singh sabha thought as they were deemed too sanatan in front of mainstream.

Here is old orginal gurmukh parkash- http://www.mahapurakh.com/sant-sundar-singh-ji, if someone can bhindran version compare this with new mehta version, that be great.

[paapiman]

May be op can tell us, what exactly are mistakes in ddt books. We can discuss it from scholarly perspective. Whilst, we respect all saints and gurmukhs on this forum as we have special section dedicate to saints of sikhism but from scholarly perspective (You be surprised ddt gyanis themselves had many scholarly respectful discussions with scholars in the past), we can discuss the op concerns on what exactly are mistakes and is that something ddt reproduce from thin air or they were simply quoting puratan rehitnamas etc. There are also valid concerns even on as to why ddt scholar gyanis even watering down their own book such as gurmukh parkash to make it compatible with mainstream singh sabha thought as they were deemed too sanatan in front of mainstream.

Here is old orginal gurmukh parkash- http://www.mahapurakh.com/sant-sundar-singh-ji, if someone can bhindran version compare this with new mehta version, that be great.

Bro, have you noticed differences in the thinking of new and old Taksalis?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[kdsingh80]

Damdami Taksal site for years is mistranslating gurbani for thei purpose and there is hardly any objection from sikhs

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

"If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure.

How can the mind of those

Who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?"

SGGSJ Ang 140

http://www.damdamitaksaal.org/code-of-conduct#h3-11-3-halaal-eating-meat-fish-and-eggs

ਅਵਰੀ ਨੋ ਸਮਝਾਵਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥

अवरी नो समझावणि जाइ ॥

Avrī no samjẖāvaṇ jā▫e.

And yet, they go out to teach others.

ਮੁਠਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਾਏ ਸਾਥੈ ॥

मुठा आपि मुहाए साथै ॥

Muṯẖā āp muhā▫e sāthai.

They are deceived, and they deceive their companions.

ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਆਗੂ ਜਾਪੈ ॥੧॥

नानक ऐसा आगू जापै ॥१॥

Nānak aisā āgū jāpai. ||1||

O Nanak, such are the leaders of men. ||1||

ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥

महला ४ ॥

Mėhlā 4.

Fourth Mehl:

ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ॥

जिस दै अंदरि सचु है सो सचा नामु मुखि सचु अलाए ॥

Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā▫e.

Those, within whom the Truth dwells, obtain the True Name; they speak only the Truth.

ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥

ओहु हरि मारगि आपि चलदा होरना नो हरि मारगि पाए ॥

Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā▫e.

They walk on the Lord's Path, and inspire others to walk on the Lord's Path as well.

ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ॥

जे अगै तीरथु होइ ता मलु लहै छपड़ि नातै सगवी मलु लाए ॥

Je agai ṯirath ho▫e ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā▫e.

Bathing in a pool of holy water, they are washed clean of filth. But, by bathing in a stagnant pond, they are contaminated with even more filth.

ਤੀਰਥੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥

तीरथु पूरा सतिगुरू जो अनदिनु हरि हरि नामु धिआए ॥

Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an▫ḏin har har nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e.

The True Guru is the Perfect Pool of Holy Water. Night and day, He meditates on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.

ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ॥

ओहु आपि छुटा कुट्मब सिउ दे हरि हरि नामु सभ स्रिसटि छडाए ॥

Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si▫o ḏe har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā▫e.

He is saved, along with his family; bestowing the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, He saves the whole world.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥

जन नानक तिसु बलिहारणै जो आपि जपै अवरा नामु जपाए ॥२॥

Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā▫e. ||2||

Servant Nanak is a sacrifice to one who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it as well. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

पउड़ी ॥

Pa▫oṛī.

Pauree:

ਇਕਿ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਵਣ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥

इकि कंद मूलु चुणि खाहि वण खंडि वासा ॥

Ik kanḏ mūl cẖuṇ kẖāhi vaṇ kẖand vāsā.

Some pick and eat fruits and roots, and live in the wilderness.

ਇਕਿ ਭਗਵਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸਾ ॥

इकि भगवा वेसु करि फिरहि जोगी संनिआसा ॥

Ik bẖagvā ves kar firėh jogī saniāsā.

Some wander around wearing saffron robes, as Yogis and Sanyaasees.

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ॥

अंदरि त्रिसना बहुतु छादन भोजन की आसा ॥

Anḏar ṯarisnā bahuṯ cẖẖāḏan bẖojan kī āsā.

But there is still so much desire within them-they still yearn for clothes and food.

ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਨ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥

बिरथा जनमु गवाइ न गिरही न उदासा ॥

Birthā janam gavā▫e na girhī na uḏāsā.

They waste their lives uselessly; they are neither householders nor renunciates.

ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਹੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ ॥

जमकालु सिरहु न उतरै त्रिबिधि मनसा ॥

Jamkāl sirahu na uṯrai ṯaribaḏẖ mansā.

The Messenger of Death hangs over their heads, and they cannot escape the three-phased desire.

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥

गुरमती कालु न आवै नेड़ै जा होवै दासनि दासा ॥

Gurmaṯī kāl na āvai neṛai jā hovai ḏāsan ḏāsā.

Death does not even approach those who follow the Guru's Teachings, and become the slaves of the Lord's slaves.

ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥

सचा सबदु सचु मनि घर ही माहि उदासा ॥

Sacẖā sabaḏ sacẖ man gẖar hī māhi uḏāsā.

The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥

नानक सतिगुरु सेवनि आपणा से आसा ते निरासा ॥५॥

Nānak saṯgur sevan āpṇā se āsā ṯe nirāsā. ||5||

O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5||

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

सलोकु मः १ ॥

Salok mėhlā 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

जे रतु लगै कपड़ै जामा होइ पलीतु ॥

Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

जो रतु पीवहि माणसा तिन किउ निरमलु चीतु ॥

Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=140

Years ago I pointed this mistake on sikhsangat and one singh accepted that this is mistake . It has been 7-8 years sites changed but this is not corrected , so it looks not an mistake but delibrate mistranslation

[paapiman]

Damdami Taksal site for years is mistranslating gurbani for thei purpose and there is hardly any objection from sikhs

Years ago I pointed this mistake on sikhsangat and one singh accepted that this is mistake . It has been 7-8 years sites changed but this is not corrected , so it looks not an mistake but delibrate mistranslation

Bro, this is not a mistake. You will have to know the uthanka for this shabad to understand the akhree arth of it. It was a dialogue with a Qazi.

The arth which you provided, is also right. There might be many more arths of this tuk too.

People need to understand that there are Gurbani tuks, which have multiple arths. Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Sundar Singh jee Bhindrawale did more than 20 arths of a single Gurbani tuk.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

The same as the one I posted... twisted for their own agenda to subordinate women and maintain male dominance:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
"Guru Jee says, she who looks upon Her Husband as the Lord, is blessed and has firm faith; great are

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥

those wives and they are received with honour in the Court of the Lord."

Here is the original Shabad. It's actually telling women that they have worth as an individual, that their worth is not attached to their physical husband, to the point that they should kill themselves when he dies, or out of grief. Instead that they should view God as their Husband Lord, and put faith in God alone, to live through that grief and that is the true satee. It's actually a message to uplift women not denigrate them.

ਜਲੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥

Jalai na pā▫ī▫ai rām sanehī.

By burning oneself, the Beloved Lord is not obtained.

ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kiraṯ sanjog saṯī uṯẖ ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Only by the actions of destiny does she rise up and burn herself, as a 'satee'. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥

Ḏekẖā ḏekẖī manhaṯẖ jal jā▫ī▫ai.

Imitating what she sees, with her stubborn mind-set, she goes into the fire.

ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥

Pari▫a sang na pāvai baho jon bẖavā▫ī▫ai. ||2||

She does not obtain the Company of her Beloved Lord, and she wanders through countless incarnations. ||2||

ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥

Sīl sanjam pari▫a āgi▫ā mānai.

With pure conduct and self-restraint, she surrenders to her Husband Lord's Will;

ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥

Ŧis nārī ka▫o ḏukẖ na jamānai. ||3||

that woman shall not suffer pain at the hands of the Messenger of Death. ||3||

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

DDT have gone even further and used their twisted version to state outright that Singhs are to view their wives as faithful 'followers' (subordinate) while Singhnis are to view their husbands as 'God' (Singhnis are outright told by DDT they must be obedient to their husbands because their husbands are in charge over them, superior to them).

Edited May 3, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bro, this is not a mistake. You will have to know the uthanka for this shabad to understand the akhree arth of it. It was a dialogue with a Qazi.

The arth which you provided, is also right. There might be many more arths of this tuk too.

People need to understand that there are Gurbani tuks, which have multiple arths. Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Sundar Singh jee Bhindrawale did more than 20 arths of a single Gurbani tuk.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

You cant take single tuks and mistranslate to suit your needs... especially when the twisted mistranslated version actually speaks opposite to what the shabad does! For example, you cant tell someone in a shabad that it's ok to do something and then in a single tuk have one group mistranslate it to say that its not ok to do that very same thing that the shabad is syaing is ok.

The mistranslated tuk I posted, if you take DDTs meaning, then you cant also take the meaning of the shabad. One uplifts women, the other denigrates them!

[paapiman]

Can we please give opportunity to the op to reply?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Lucky]

Damdami Taksal site for years is mistranslating gurbani for their purpose and there is hardly any objection from sikhs

Years ago I pointed this mistake on sikhsangat and one singh accepted that this is mistake . It has been 7-8 years sites changed but this is not corrected , so it looks not an mistake but delibrate mistranslation

I agree, the tuks mentioned are mistranslated with misconstrued messages.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥

Nānak nā▫o kẖuḏā▫e kā ḏil hacẖẖai mukẖ leho.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥

Avar ḏivāje ḏunī ke jẖūṯẖe amal karehu. ||1||

Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

I'm dare not insult any ddt's intelligence.....But the above tuk is from the shabad that relates to the likes of Malik Bhago.

Some shabads can give deeper spiritual messages with having both esoteric and exoteric layers, but with the couple mentioned above, I'm finding it hard to see any multiple layers at the moment.

[paapiman]

I agree, the tuks mentioned are mistranslated with misconstrued messages.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥

Nānak nā▫o kẖuḏā▫e kā ḏil hacẖẖai mukẖ leho.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥

Avar ḏivāje ḏunī ke jẖūṯẖe amal karehu. ||1||

Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

Bro, the tuks above are not misinterpreted. One type of arth is based on uthanka. There are other types too, such as akhree arth, anthriv arth, anbhavee arth, dungay arth, etc.

The beauty of Gurbanee lies in the fact that it can talk to people of different spiritual levels, with the same tuk.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

The uthanka for the shabad (containing this tuk) is as follows:

A Qazi asked a butcher to kill a chicken. Due to a mistake committed by the butcher, blood splashed on the clothes of the Qazi. Qazi started scolding his servant and said that my clothes have become impure. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was on his way to work and saw them. He came there and recited the shabad. The updesh was that if by blood stains, clothes have become impure, how can those people who eat flesh/blood of animals, keep their minds pure.

This arth was for the Qazi and is for meat eaters.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

"If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure.

How can the mind of those

Who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?"

This arth applies to corrupt and tyrant people.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

The uthanka for this shabad (containing this tuk) is as follows:

A Sikh came to fifth master and informed that a lady has become Sati* (burnt on pyre) with her husband. Then, Maharaaj recited the shabad.

This is a teaching for a woman.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥

Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the husband as a lord

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

This is a teaching for all souls (male or female)

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥

Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

Therefore, all the arths mentioned above, are right. They don't contradict each other. They give updesh to different types of people.

*Satguru condemned the practice of forcing a woman to burn on her husband's pyre. If a lady, by her own will, wants to become a Sati, I don't think that is contrary to Gurmat.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 8, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Bro, the tuks above are not misinterpreted. One type of arth is based on uthanka. There are other types too, such as akhree arth, anbhavee arth, dungay arth, etc.

The beauty of Gurbanee lies in the fact that it can talk to people of different spiritual levels, with the same tuk.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

The uthanka for the shabad (containing this tuk) is as follows:

A Qazi asked a butcher to kill a chicken. Due to a mistake committed by the butcher, blood splashed on the clothes of the Qazi. Qazi started scolding his servant and said that my clothes have become impure. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was on his way to work and saw them. He came there and recited the shabad. The updesh was that if by blood stains, clothes have become impure, how can those people who eat flesh/blood of animals, keep their minds pure.

This arth was for the Qazi and, is for meat eaters.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

"If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure.

How can the mind of those

Who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?"

This arth applies to corrupt and tyrant people.

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥

Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

The uthanka for this shabad (containing this tuk) is as follows:

A Sikh came to fifth master and informed that a lady has become Sati* (burnt on pyre) with her husband. Then, Maharaaj recited the shabad.

This is a teaching for a woman.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥

Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the husband as a lord

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

This is a teaching for all souls (male or female)

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥

Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.

Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥

Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||

is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

Therefore, all the arths mentioned above, are right. They don't contradict each other. They give updesh to different types of people.

*Satguru condemned the practice of forcing a woman to burn on her husband's pyre. If a lady, by her own will, wants to become a Sati, I don't think that is contrary to Gurmat.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Paapiman that is NOT a teaching for a woman. Sikh women are not supposed to be subordinate to their husbands. Those who think that tuk was meant to denegrate women are so wrong and are twisting it for their own agenda (to maintain their position of control and dominance over women). It's a deliberate misinterpretation meant to denigrate women and reinforce male superiority.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur