chatanga1 Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I have started reading this book over the last few days and wanted to know if any forum member has read it and what they think of it? Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I think I read Bindra's (???) translation, if I recall rightly. I think those points about it mirroring later Singh Sabha type understanding of itihaas, and there being no original text available are highly significant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Padam edited it way too much. Edited July 7, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 yes it's Bindra's translation version with a foreword by Pal Singh Purewal. I was interested moreso to read Saroop Singh account of Ram Rai, which differs totally to what we beleive today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 What does it say about Ram Rai? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I've got upto the part where Ram Rai was forgiven by Guru Sahib and taken back into the Sikh fold. Will read further and let you know.btw it mentions the first kakar as "keski" and this bhatt vahi is quoted extensively to promote or recognise keski as a kakar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Yes the AKJ's love it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Yes the AKJ's love itWhich is really surprising as it does not support vegetarianism. Only says that Halal is forbidden. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuttabanda2 Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 Guru Kian Sakhian are authentic in the sense that they were written by Sarroop Singh Kaushish in 1790, however, they aren't entirely reliable. The accounts of the Amrit Sanchar, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Dasmesh Pita Ji's jyoti-jyot are reliable because they're corroborated by actual Pandd and Bhatt Vahees. If you compare the accounts with the ones in the Bhatt Vahees, it's supported. The rest of the accounts are fishy. The reason why Keski is mentioned in Guru Kian Sakhian (based off of some Vahees), Pargana Thanesar Bhatt Vahees, and Bhatt Narbad Singh's accounts is due to the fact that Guru Sahib did indeed tie a blue keski on the Panj Pyare and probably instructed them to keep one. But that doesn't mean it's a Kakkar. The Bhatts and Pandds historically recorded incidences from afar or from what they heard around that very moment. It's almost a tradition for them. Their job was to record what they witnessed. The Amrit Sanchar was witnessed by them from amongst the Sangat or on the outskirts of the area from where they could still view and hear (as they have been doing in battles, royal courts, or hearings in India). So when they saw Guru Sahib give the Panj a Sarbloh Kara, a Karad, a white Kacherra, a wooden kanga, and blue keski, they assumed it to be the fifth Kakkar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 On 11/12/2016 at 11:54 PM, Kuttabanda2 said: Guru Kian Sakhian are authentic in the sense that they were written by Sarroop Singh Kaushish in 1790, however, they aren't entirely reliable. The accounts of the Amrit Sanchar, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Dasmesh Pita Ji's jyoti-jyot are reliable because they're corroborated by actual Pandd and Bhatt Vahees. If you compare the accounts with the ones in the Bhatt Vahees, it's supported. The rest of the accounts are fishy. The reason why Keski is mentioned in Guru Kian Sakhian (based off of some Vahees), Pargana Thanesar Bhatt Vahees, and Bhatt Narbad Singh's accounts is due to the fact that Guru Sahib did indeed tie a blue keski on the Panj Pyare and probably instructed them to keep one. But that doesn't mean it's a Kakkar. The Bhatts and Pandds historically recorded incidences from afar or from what they heard around that very moment. It's almost a tradition for them. Their job was to record what they witnessed. The Amrit Sanchar was witnessed by them from amongst the Sangat or on the outskirts of the area from where they could still view and hear (as they have been doing in battles, royal courts, or hearings in India). So when they saw Guru Sahib give the Panj a Sarbloh Kara, a Karad, a white Kacherra, a wooden kanga, and blue keski, they assumed it to be the fifth Kakkar. According to your research is there anything to substantiate the presence of 5 K's as a part of the original Khalsa Rahit? Most often mention that the early texts only talk about Trai Mudre and Giani Gian Singh is the first to mention 5 K's as a specific Khalsa rahit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted December 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2016 21 hours ago, amardeep said: According to your research is there anything to substantiate the presence of 5 K's as a part of the original Khalsa Rahit? Most often mention that the early texts only talk about Trai Mudre and Giani Gian Singh is the first to mention 5 K's as a specific Khalsa rahit. Interesting. So the first mention of the 5 k's as we know them today was around 1890s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted December 24, 2016 Report Share Posted December 24, 2016 On 21/12/2016 at 2:28 PM, chatanga1 said: Interesting. So the first mention of the 5 k's as we know them today was around 1890s. Thats the earliest i've seen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuttabanda2 Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 12/20/2016 at 8:16 AM, amardeep said: According to your research is there anything to substantiate the presence of 5 K's as a part of the original Khalsa Rahit? Most often mention that the early texts only talk about Trai Mudre and Giani Gian Singh is the first to mention 5 K's as a specific Khalsa rahit. The only texts that mention all 5 Kakkars together are the Bhatt Vahi of Pargana Thanesar, and Sri Gur Katha, and and they differ from each other on the Kes-Keski issue. There's also Bijay Mukat, but it seems touched up and can't be any earlier than Guru Kian Sakhian, probably early to Mid 1800s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 What abot that Persian quote "Sikhi eh panj muaf" .. It mentions 5 K's also. How old is that, and what writings is it part of? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuttabanda2 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 2/2/2017 at 2:00 PM, amardeep said: What abot that Persian quote "Sikhi eh panj muaf" .. It mentions 5 K's also. How old is that, and what writings is it part of? That's an interesting stanza. According to Bhai Pyara Singh Padam, that couplet was written on a Parchi, slipped into a bir of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. Dr. Ganda Singh Ji on the other hand, says in 'Makhisheh Twareekh-e-Sikhaan' that he found it in a manuscript of Sarbloh Granth. Both can actually be correct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 12/11/2016 at 5:54 PM, Kuttabanda2 said: they're corroborated by actual Pandd and Bhatt Vahees. Bro, what do you mean by "Pandd"? Is it ਪੰਡ? Thanks Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuttabanda2 Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 14 hours ago, paapiman said: Bro, what do you mean by "Pandd"? Is it ਪੰਡ? Thanks Bhul chuk maaf yeah, not as in bale-bundle, but as in the caste-occupation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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