Charitropakhyan etc written by Court Poets (historical)

[mrsingh]

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@‌DalSingh101. Paji if there's one thing you are opposed to it's the biraderi nonsense that is infesting the Panth and that we need to eradicate immediately and urgently. I put to you however that Bachittar Natak goes against Dashmesh Pita's philosophy of "kul nash". Why would Guru Sahib who blessed us ungrateful wretches with the Khalsa Panth expound upon their supposed genealogy? Who stands to gain by our Guru Sahib being described as from the offspring of the Hindu God Lord Ram? Paji does it not sound ludicrous to you that the writer of Bachittar Natak alleges that GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708 was decided in such an anti-Gurmat way in a previous era by Hindu Kings? I simply cannot get my head round the fact as to why people would criticise those like Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa, Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji Khalsa and the vast majority of learned Gursikhs who dare to assert that GurGaddi succession was decided upon the criteria of Bibek Buddhi, seva for Sarbat da Bhala and kamai as the main factors of primary importance (as opposed to the nonsensical assertion below that it was all decided in a previous era by Hindu Kings de facto like a land and business deal ... "we give you our riches ... but you get GurGaddi in your next life" ... what an outright insult of our Guru Sahibaan).

 

On 22 July 2015, mrsingh said:

Bachittar Natak (Chapter 4) "Dasam" Granth

 

ਰਿਖੰ ਭੇਸ ਕੀਯੰ ॥ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਾਜ ਦੀਯੰ ॥੫॥
रिखं भेस कीयं ॥ तिसै राज दीयं ॥५॥
He put on the garb of a sage (rishi) and gave his kingdom to the reciter (Amrit Rai)5.

ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਲੋਗੰ ॥ ਤਜੇ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗੰ ॥
रहे होरि लोगं ॥ तजे सरब सोगं ॥
The people tried to tell the king not to do so, but, he had abandoned all sorrows.

ਧਨੰ ਧਾਮ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਗੇ ॥੬॥
धनं धाम तिआगे ॥ प्रभं प्रेम पागे ॥६॥
And leaving his wealth and property, absorbed himself in divine love.6.

ਅੜਿਲ ॥
अड़िल ॥
ARIL

ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥
बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥
Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased.

With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥
जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥
When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak,

you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥
लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥
The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest,

and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥
भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥
They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥
त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥
O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas,

and while listening to the fourth Veda, you gave away your kingdom.

ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥
तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥
When I shall have taken three births,

you will be made the Guru in the fourth birth."9.

ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥
उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥
That (Sodhi) king left for the forest,

and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.

ਕਹਾ ਲਗੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਡਰਾਊਂ ॥੧੦॥
कहा लगे करि कथा सुनाऊं ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अधिक डराऊं ॥१०॥
To what extent, I should narrate the story?

It is feared that this book will become voluminous.10.

Paapi Ji as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh ... can you please kindly explain to me why Sikhs should believe the above story in Bachittar Natak ... which alleges that our Guru Sahibaan were Hindu Kings in their previous lives (solely from the Bedi and Sodhi clans) who supposedly (according to Bachittar Natak above) did a business deal for land and wealth as Hindu Kings to decide the order of GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708.

Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhiyan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously?

Edited July 31, 2015 by mrsingh

[paapiman]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's keep this topic, primarily based on historical sources.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

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@‌DalSingh101. Paji if there's one thing you are opposed to it's the biraderi nonsense that is infesting the Panth and that we need to eradicate immediately and urgently. I put to you however that Bachittar Natak goes against Dashmesh Pita's philosophy of "kul nash". Why would Guru Sahib who blessed us ungrateful wretches with the Khalsa Panth expound upon their supposed genealogy? Who stands to gain by our Guru Sahib being described as from the offspring of the Hindu God Lord Ram? Paji does it not sound ludicrous to you that the writer of Bachittar Natak alleges that GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708 was decided in such an anti-Gurmat way in a previous era by Hindu Kings? I simply cannot get my head round the fact as to why people would criticise those like Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa, Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji Khalsa and the vast majority of learned Gursikhs who dare to assert that GurGaddi succession was decided upon the criteria of Bibek Buddhi, seva for Sarbat da Bhala and kamai as the main factors of primary importance (as opposed to the nonsensical assertion below that it was all decided in a previous era by Hindu Kings de facto like a land and business deal ... "we give you our riches ... but you get GurGaddi in your next life" ... what an outright insult of our Guru Sahibaan).

 

Paapi Ji as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh ... can you please kindly explain to me why Sikhs should believe the above story in Bachittar Natak ... which alleges that our Guru Sahibaan were Hindu Kings in their previous lives (solely from the Bedi and Sodhi clans) who supposedly (according to Bachittar Natak above) did a business deal for land and wealth as Hindu Kings to decide the order of GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708.

Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhiyan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously?

Let's keep this topic, primarily based on historical sources.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest http://dginfo.weebly.com/answers-to-dasam-granthis.html]

Admin note: message disapproved. Please use your real id- mrsingh

[Harjots8963]

Singhsabha1699 Ji (Mr.Singh) we have already discussed this in length. 

I have linked Katha By Sant Ji. There are many Mahapurakhs that completely support Sri Dasam Granth in full. Who I refuse to question. 

 

Mein na manoo vali hova rut. 

What can you do at the point?

 

 

Here's the fact. 

No one doing this discussion will remain in the world. Whether you support Sri Dasam Granth or are against Sri Dasam Granth. In the end we will all pass. But here's the thing. Sri Dasam Granth Dashmesh Pita Jis bani will remain Jugo Jug Atal!!!! Because there is this certain fact that guru mahrajas amrit bani is the truth in this dark world.

 

 

 

[mrsingh]

Singhsabha1699 Ji (Mr.Singh) we have already discussed this in length.

Mr = But bir'ay I never manage to obtain any direct answers to simple questions from you personally :-)

8963 = There are many Mahapurakhs that completely support Sri Dasam Granth in full. Who I refuse to question.

Mr = This is half the issue brother Harjot. A Sikh is only answerable to Guru Sahib. Not any so-called M(ahap)urakh. So if a Damdami Taksal mahapurakh historically wanted that Mazhabi's should not receive Amrit or will be administered it separately, we as Sikhs cannot sit back and tolerate that when it directly contravenes everything Gurmat and Sikhi stand for. If a mahapurakh like Santa of Budha Dal or DDT advises chele to vote for Indira Gandhi and Congress in the 1980 elections then the chele should question such decisions and do what is right for the Panth and not simply do as ordered to like sheep.

8963 = Mein na manoo vali hova rut. What can you do at the point?

Mr = That's totally fine brother. If you believe that everything in Triya Charitar and Bachittar Natak was personally devised, created and written by Guru Sahib then it is your human right to hold that conviction. My respect for you as a good honest Sikh does not lessen. But obviously I passionately feel that we can not allow Dasam Pita to be slandered by associating the writing of ordinary erotica or casteist storytellers with Guru Sahib. So it's just an honest discussion (without malice or hatred) of two ideologically opposite positions which nevertheless both hold equal reverence for Dashmesh Pita.

8963 = No one doing this discussion will remain in the world.

Mr = True

8963 = Whether you support Sri Dasam Granth or are against Sri Dasam Granth. In the end we will all pass.

Mr = That's not the point brother.

Mr = This whole argument goes to the root of what we perceive Sikhi to be and where we want Sikhi to go. If Sikhi is something that has no global relevance, you're happy with the status quo (as Sant Samaj are) and blind faith for pakhandi Baba's is cool in your eyes then the anti-Gurmat allegations in Bachittar Natak against Dashmesh Pita are all just fine and dandy.

Mr = If we want Sikhi to be global, if we want Sikhs to all be learners and analyse critically according to Gurmat rather than blindly following a Baba that feeds us a plethora of anti-Gurmat sakhi's and if you feel that status quo as seen in the last 35years is a catastrophic failure for the Sikh Panth then you will fight every allegation contained in Bachittar Natak and Triya Charitar that demeans and denigrates Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and weakens the forward march of Sikhi towards Panth ki Jeet.

Mr = Authentic Dasam Bani will always remain Jugo Jug Atal no matter how much obvious admixture certain anti-Sikh elemernts try to foist on the Panth. And I'm glad that despite our (amicable) differences we agree that the authentic bani's of our Guru Sahib are the 100% undeniable Truth.

http://dginfo.weebly.com/answers-to-dasam-granthis.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by mrsingh

[Harjots8963]

Chalo reinforces my point SinghSabha Ji. Hahahahahahahahahaha

[Singh123456777]

Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhiyan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously?

There is no proof for this. Get some proof before lying. 

[SikhKhoj]

While not many sources exist that write about the author of Charitropakhyan etc the Mahima Parkash statement is invaluable. The book talks about court poets translating these works, Charitropakhyan and Chaubis Avtar being created.

Secondly, it gives the invaluable statement that Shyam was a court poet and not a pen name. This in stark contrast to Dasam Granthis, who when confronted with the internal signatures of Shyam and Raam assume that these were pen names of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Not a single Dasam Granth believer has been able to prove that these signatures belong to Guru Ji besides emotional drama. This topic is about historical aspect not emotional.

Dasam Granth is clear about its author:

ਸੁ ਕਬਿ ਸਯਾਮਿ ਤਾਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਚੌਦਸਵੋ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੪॥
The poet Shyam knows him as fourteenth incarnation.4.
(Chaubis Avtar, Dasam Granth)

Who is Kab Shyam? According to Mahima Parkash (1776) he was one of the court poets working on Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan, which is a verifiable fact due to the internal signatures we find (such as the Chaubis Avtar quote given above).

My second proof is the often quoted Sri Gur Partap Suraj Granth, written by Kavi Santokh Singh and completed in 1843. The book mentions about 41 court poets throughout the book with Kab Shyam being one of the court poets. This is the second proof that Guru Ji had a court poet called Shyam, and thus reinforces the fact mentioned in Mahima Parkash.

My third proof is a 19th century book that confirms Raam and Shyam being court poets. That is the Guru Pad Prem Parkash by Bawa Sumer Singh. Although it is a fairly recent book written by 1882 it contains invaluable information regarding certain incidents and I used it extensively during my Sri Gur Sobha research too because it had some good information. Secondly, 1882 is not the period that Dasam Granth was questioned yet, therefore we can not assume that Bawa Sumer Singh was misled by 'Singh Sabha propaganda' or whatever. The major movement against Dasam Granth started quite some years after 1882. I have to say clearly that the book does not say that Shyam wrote the Dasam Granth or Charitropakhyan but it confirms that Raam and Shyam were court poets, which is the third proof that Shyam is not a pen name but a court poet of Guru Ji.

Therefore I have given 3 historical Sikh books, that are quoted in Gurdwaras throughout the world, as references to prove that Shyam was not a pen name but an existing court poet. Therefore Mahima Parkash statement regarding Shyam being one of the authors of Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan can not be ignored.

The Mahan Kosh also accept Ram and Shyam amongst the 52 court poets.

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

There is one more 19th century book that confirms Raam and Shyam being court poets.

 

You are playing too many games!!... Like Dalsing said - acting like a new movie is coming out and you're presenting the trailer format in small litle bits. Just post your new 19th Century source in one go and lets get the debate going!

The presence of a poets named Shyam and Ram mentioned as "Guru ke pyare" by Bawa Sumer singh is well known . Yet this did'n mean he rejected the Dasam Granth as Guru krit. What was the Guru going to do - reject people in the darbar because of their names? Many poets had the same or similiar names - there were most likely two Bhai Nand Lals as well as two poets named Gurdas, Chand and Chandan,

Here is the 11th line - which Rattan Singh Jaggi most probably left out on purpose - clearly stating the Guru composed writings himself. I very much suspect that the reason you did'n want to scan either is because of the 11th verse!

 

ਦੋਹਰਾ। ਭਾਖਾ ਰਚੀ ਦਿਆਲ ਗੁਰ, ਸਭ ਮਨ ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ। ਦੁਰਗਮ ਸੁਗਮ ਭਏ ਸਕਲ, ਪੜਿ ਸਿਖਨ ਹੋਇ ਭੰਗ ।੧੧।

So are you playing games because you are bored or what? Scan the Whole sakhi and lets get the discussion going! There are  too many games being played here!  You are seriosly being a Little kid for no reason, - you knew about the 11th verse yet you purposefully kept the debate going around in circles for no reason. The fourth part is also missing from the page.  Scan the sakhi and lets proceed to see what the sakhi says about the Poet's writings and the Guru's rachna. I dont trust that Rattan Singh Jaggi article at all after this serious omission!

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

I've named the book. Re read my post.

And didn't your face say you were leaving this topic?

[SikhKhoj]

Stop lying and post translation of

ਦੋਹਰਾ। ਭਾਖਾ ਰਚੀ ਦਿਆਲ ਗੁਰ, ਸਭ ਮਨ ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ। ਦੁਰਗਮ ਸੁਗਮ ਭਏ ਸਕਲ, ਪੜਿ ਸਿਖਨ ਹੋਇ ਭੰਗ ।੧੧।

if you claim that it says Guru Ji wrote it.

[SikhKhoj]

I am still waiting for proofs that Ram and Shyam were pen names of Guru Ji. Not a single proof as of yet ?

[amardeep]

You fool, I've named the book. Re read my post.

Good you inserted the names of the books while editing your post. Wonderful for you.

At what page does Kavi Santokh Singh Refer to Kavi Shyam and what does he say about him? Please scan those parts for us to see how they back up your claims.

[SikhKhoj]

I am still waiting for a single proof for using Shyam as pen name? or Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj writing Charitropakhyan?

Answer my questions and I will post the text

[amardeep]

Oh my God is he for real or just trolling around?
You are manipulating the sangat on purpose! You knew what the 11th verse said!  Thats most likely the reason you have been so reluctant to show the original Gurmukhi and instead copy paste some article of someones reading of the text.! Cause why would'n you scan it if it was in your favour???

Stop manipulating!!.. You have seriosly crossed all limits now. You are a complete joke and Waste of time. The sangat has seen how you manipulate and play games for your own gradification. Challo I hope you had fun.

Edited July 31, 2015 by amardeep

[Singh123456777]

And the winner of this debate is Amardeep!!!!

[SikhKhoj]

Stop being a phuddu. Translate the 11th line if you're so confident.

[SikhKhoj]

Singh123, where is a single proof showing Guru Ji used pen name Shyam? Not a single.

I don't want to win this debate, I just proved Shyam - court poet - wrote Charitropakhyan etc

[Singh123456777]

Bro you didn't prove anything! All you proved was that there was a poet named shyam. That's all!! 

Everybody here  knows you are trying real hard to win this debate.

Also if you say to me 'you haven't shown one source' it's because I'm not making a theory up. You are the one with the theories.

[SikhKhoj]

You couldn't even prove Dasam Guru used Poet Shyam as pen name, all you have is blind faith

[amardeep]

This is a joke. You are manipulating texts for the sake of winning debates! As other people have said: Go do something useful such as naam simran instead of manipulating the writings of your ancestors. You are a utter joke.. This is actually the first time in an online debate that im actually pissed off!! How dare you!!

 

The readers have seen your true colors now!

 

Im out. My benti to all readers is to boycut this fool! He aint worth the time. Go seek some mental help!

[SikhKhoj]

Anyways, open minded people reading this topic will benefit and realize that there is not enough evidence for DG being Guru Krit. Nor internal nor external. Simply writing a date of 1696 or saying Mukhvaak Patshahi 10 is not enough lol.

Thanks for the encouraging messages via PM.

Anyone can read the whole Sakhi and see that the Poets wrote Charitropakhyan and Chaubis Avtar (page 411)

[CdnSikhGirl]

ActuallyI would like to see proof that it's a pen name too...  Though I admit I am no historical scholar (as most sources are in Punjabi and I must rely on English translations) but if SikhKhoj actually showed the book name, why can't you go online and search a pdf copy of the book?? I'm sure somewhere someone has scanned it. Or buy a copy... simple.  At least he has given an ACTUAL reference. To date I have not seen even a single actual reference that can be followed up which would prove that Shyam was a pen name of Guru Ji.  If there is, then please share it so others can also go and obtain it for themselves.  If you just keep skirting it, we have Sikh Khoj giving actual references, and the rest of you have not given a single one, and then try to put it all back on him and still claim he is wrong.  If you think he is wrong, then prove it.  Right now his source is better than yours... oh wait, you have not posted one!

 

 

[SikhKhoj]

This is a joke. You are manipulating texts for the sake of winning debates! As other people have said: Go do something useful such as naam simran instead of manipulating the writings of your ancestors. You are a utter joke.. This is actually the first time in an online debate that im actually pissed off!! How dare you!!

 

The readers have seen your true colors now!

 

Im out. My benti to all readers is to boycut this fool! He aint worth the time. Go seek some mental help!

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