Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee Series - Charitar #7

[paapiman]

Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion.

Please forgive me for being explicit.

 

Request to Mods/Admins:

 

- Please do not allow Guest posts in this topic

- Please do not tolerate any insults of Gurbani

- Please do delete any off-topic posts

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Background Info:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Please read the Charitar:

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

Bro put up Jaggi's translation please and i will respond to this topic in a couple of hours. Bhul chuk muaf.

[paapiman]

 

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

I think one aspect of this chariter is the way the vaid is blindly trusted. It speaks of authority and knowledge and how people can sometimes defer complete judgement to people perceived to be experts, regardless of their actual abilities. 

[amardeep]

Have you noticed how in the charitars so far the real messages of the story have been embedded within the dialogue of the story. And not in the apparent actions of the story...

Im wondering whether these messages were embedded into the sexual content stories on purpose. So that the initial impression one gets when reading the charitro pakhyan is that it's sexual stories. Some people will most likely reject them that way... Whereas those who try to contemplate the stories will see how they talk about so so many other things instead. Like Jesus says "I speak in parabels in order to confuse the masses" and  "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

[amardeep]

It looks like the English translation has been translated from the Punjabi translation. And not from the original braj. Is that correct?

[amardeep]

If someone has time can we make a short bullet list of each charitars main point as we see them, which can be appended to each opening topic of charitras.

 

Ie:
Charitar 1 - focus on hasty actions, linking the plot of the story to the main story of minister and king's situation

Charitar 2 - focus on how household affairs can blind a king's sense of Justice towards his citizens

charitar 3 - focus on how X,Y and Z and linkiing it back to main story etc etc etc

Charitar 4 - focus on how a king can misuse his powers in kidnapping women in the populace

 

Then we can see how the Whole Charitro pakhyan narrative evolves as we go through each charitar.

Edited February 24, 2016 by amardeep

[amardeep]

Also interesting to note the opening lines of the Charitro Pakhyan. It's correct title is apparently Pakhyan Charitar. And the manglacharan is Sri Bhaugati-e-nam. Does that give it more of a Persian tone?

ਮੁਖ ਭਾਗ 12

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਏ ਨਮ ॥

ਅਥ ਪਖ੍ਯਾਨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਲਿਖ੍ਯਤੇ ॥

ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥
 

 

 

[amardeep]

Or probably Bhaugatie namah. Forget the persian reference lol.

Like Sri Ganeshyah Namah.

[paapiman]

19 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think one aspect of this chariter is the way the vaid is blindly trusted. It speaks of authority and knowledge and how people can sometimes defer complete judgement to people perceived to be experts, regardless of their actual abilities. 

The above is a very good point. A similar move was made by the woman in the previous Charitar, when she mentioned about the Brahmin. The Jatt, probably blindly trusted her because of that. We need to recall that Brahmins were considered as Devtay (Demi-Gods) by the other castes, during olden times.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

In this story, the Minister is telling the King, that the woman has identified some ailment(representing weakness) in her first partner (representing the King). She has called the Vaid, telling the first partner she is concerned with curing him (helping him). In reality she humiliates him by performing bizarre remedies.

 

The wise Minister is trying to tell the King subtly that the Queen has identified your weakness (his blind love for her, or as Dally has said blind trust) and is actually humiliating you whilst pretending to act in your best interests.

[chatanga1]

7 hours ago, amardeep said:

If someone has time can we make a short bullet list of each charitars main point as we see them, which can be appended to each opening topic of charitras.

 

Ie:
Charitar 1 - focus on hasty actions, linking the plot of the story to the main story of minister and king's situation

Charitar 2 - focus on how household affairs can blind a king's sense of Justice towards his citizens

charitar 3 - focus on how X,Y and Z and linkiing it back to main story etc etc etc

Charitar 4 - focus on how a king can misuse his powers in kidnapping women in the populace

 

Then we can see how the Whole Charitro pakhyan narrative evolves as we go through each charitar.

 

That's a good idea, giving the essence of the story in a line or two. It would sit better for each story once we have given our views on them.

 

Maybe it may be better to collate the Sri CharitroPakhyan stories in a sub-folder in Sri Dasam Granth folder? That way would make it easier for other people accessing the forum to view the whole effort in one folder?

[paapiman]

7 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

In this story, the Minister is telling the King, that the woman has identified some ailment(representing weakness) in her first partner (representing the King). She has called the Vaid, telling the first partner she is concerned with curing him (helping him). In reality she humiliates him by performing bizarre remedies.

 

The wise Minister is trying to tell the King subtly that the Queen has identified your weakness (his blind love for her, or as Dally has said blind trust) and is actually humiliating you whilst pretending to act in your best interests.

Good one bro, but who is the Vaid? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

The vaids' character doesn't seem to be important in this story as much as his actions.

[chatanga1]

May I make one further recommendation? Keep these stories discussion to that only and any other posts find a more appropriate folder or create one as sometimes it deflects from what we are trying to discuss and clutters up the subject.

[dalsingh101]

When the word bear is explicitly used to describe the character. It conjures up images of a fat, unkempt hairy bloke.

I think the sakhi might also allude to mismatches in physical attractiveness between couples and the contempt it can create?

Because the missus is good looking, the jut is unable to see through the beauty, adoring her blindly whllst she loathes him. 

[paapiman]

3 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

When the word bear is explicitly used to describe the character. It conjures up images of a fat, unkempt hairy bloke.

Does anyone know the Anthriv arths or Sankaytee arths of bear, other than the above? 

For examples:

• Ant represent humility
• Elephant represents ego
• Donkey represents a fool

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

57 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Does anyone know the Anthriv arths or Sankaytee arths of bear, other than the above? 

For examples:

• Ant represent humility
• Elephant represents ego
• Donkey represents a fool

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Looked up 'bear' in sri granth dictionary and it said:

 ਰਿੱਛ, ਭਾਲੂ; ਉਜੱਡ ਜਾਂ ਰੁੱਖਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ;

 

ਉਜੱਡ

  uncultivated, uncouth, gross, crass, uncivilized, philistine, rustic; churlish, surly, gauche

 

I think the meaning is pretty straight forward, the bloke was a simple minded, unattractive, scruffy oaf. 

 

ਉਜੱਡ ਵਿਅਕਤੀ

- 

churl, lout, oaf, curmudgeon, boor

 

ਰੁੱਖਾ

(of person or talk) indifferent, apathetic, impassive, cold-shouldered;rude, impolite, harsh, rough, brusque, blunt, curt, surly

[dalsingh101]

Can't people post the original Gurmukhi text alongside all these translations? 

[paapiman]

@dalsingh101 - Bro, we made a mistake. Charitar# 6 talks about the bear, not this one.

@amardeep@N30 S!NGH - Can anyone of you please move the posts regarding the bear to Charitar#6? Thanks a lot.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

• It's the first time we are dealing with a muslim male and female
• The charitar takes place in the nobility of Muslim high class - the Mughals ie rulers of the time
• The story takes place in Shahjahanabad (Old Delhi)
• The triple dissease does'nt appear to make much sense when read literally - there must be something symbolic in the three (getting exhausted from running, breathing mysteriosly when dreaming and feeling pain in the knees)
• The sentence "The treatment must match the dissease" could be a reference to the main story of the king punishing his son way out of proportions... In Prem Sumarag it says "The punishment must match the criminal offence".
• The placement of midwife is mysterous. One should reveal things to Guru, midwife, doctor, and friend This reference to midwife needs to be looked more into , - i think it's a hint of someting.
• One lover becomes the "doctor" and the other lover becomes the "patient". The patient is humiliated by blindly obeying the doctor thinking he benefits from his instructions.
•  

[chatanga1]

12 hours ago, amardeep said:

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

• It's the first time we are dealing with a muslim male and female
• The charitar takes place in the nobility of Muslim high class - the Mughals ie rulers of the time
• The story takes place in Shahjahanabad (Old Delhi)

 

These seem irrelevant to me. They are just fillers, to give a more rounder story without being important in themselves or having any bearing or influence on the outcome of the story.

 

12 hours ago, amardeep said:

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

 

• The triple dissease does'nt appear to make much sense when read literally - there must be something symbolic in the three (getting exhausted from running, breathing mysteriosly when dreaming and feeling pain in the knees)
•  

 

These are all symptoms of old-age, or somebody who's health is failing. I noticed this when I read the story but forgot to add it in. Remember the King is old and these symptoms are used to describe an old person.

 

12 hours ago, amardeep said:

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

• The sentence "The treatment must match the dissease" could be a reference to the main story of the king punishing his son way out of proportions...

 

Good point.

 

12 hours ago, amardeep said:

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

• The placement of midwife is mysterous. One should reveal things to Guru, midwife, doctor, and friend This reference to midwife needs to be looked more into , - i think it's a hint of someting.

 

It might be a reference to an authority figure.

 

12 hours ago, amardeep said:

Things I noticed when reading this charitar:

 

• One lover becomes the "doctor" and the other lover becomes the "patient". The patient is humiliated by blindly obeying the doctor thinking he benefits from his instructions.

 

This looks like a reference to someone being in control of the relationship/someone being controlled in a relationship.

 

 

[paapiman]

17 hours ago, amardeep said:

The triple dissease does'nt appear to make much sense when read literally - there must be something symbolic in the three (getting exhausted from running

In relation to the original Charitar, the three diseases probably point to the three major defects in the King's character.

• Kaam - He is blinded by lust for his young wife
• Krodh - He wants to execute his own son in anger.
• Duash - He is being partial towards his wife. He needs to realize that he is a father too. He needs to listen to his son's side of story too and then make a fair decision.

 

Bhul chuk maaf