ramgharia Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 why nanaksar ragiis are celibates? why the close the doors of sachkhand after asa di vaar? and also why the do prakash of guru granth sahib ji twice? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koi Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Coulda sworn I've already seen this topic before.....but where?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 @N30 S!NGH - Singh saab, has this issue been discussed on this forum before? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Not quite sure, please use search function. It's pretty intuitive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Baba Nand Singh Ji treated Guru Sahib like a Pargat Guran Ki Deh. It all makes sense. When a king meets his Sangat, there is a limited amount of time. Also people need to go to work at 7am,thus the bhog is done around that time. When parkashed, Guru Sahib is in sitting posture. Having the parkash more than 5 hours is torturous, thus sukhasan is done and parkash is done again in evening 4 pm. if you dont have devotion, you wont understand or get all this. celibacy is a personal choice, I dont think anyone is forced to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, Gunahgar said: celibacy is a personal choice, I dont think anyone is forced to do so. Bro, celibacy is a personal choice for Sikhs, but one cannot become a part of Nanaksar Jatha, until the celibacy vow is taken, unlike Taksaal, Nihangs, etc. Can you please confirm the above? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, paapiman said: Bro, celibacy is a personal choice for Sikhs, but one cannot become a part of Nanaksar Jatha, until the celibacy vow is taken, unlike Taksaal, Nihangs, etc. Can you please confirm the above? Bhul chuk maaf I think after Baba Ishar Singh Ji Kaleran many mahapurush got married. So not sure if that rule still applies though to be part of Jatha. I am not even sure about the celibacy vow. Times were different during Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh because they would read your mind right away, and slap you right across or kick you out if a lusthful thought arises. In this day and age, rules are more lenient. Bravo to those , who can still keep the maryada of Celibacy. But really I am not sure about the rules. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Gunahgar said: I think after Baba Ishar Singh Ji Kaleran many mahapurush got married. So not sure if that rule still applies though to be part of Jatha. I am not even sure about the celibacy vow. Times were different during Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh because they would read your mind right away, and slap you right across or kick you out if a lusthful thought arises. In this day and age, rules are more lenient. Bravo to those , who can still keep the maryada of Celibacy. But really I am not sure about the rules. Daas is almost certain that all the Singhs (Raagis in Jathas) under Srimaan Sant Baba Gurdev Singh jee Maharaaj are celibates. They receive no salaries for their Seva. Non-celibate Singhs can do Kirtan, Paath in Sachkhand, Langar Seva, etc, but they cannot become regular members of the Jatha. Also. Khanday wala Amrit can only be prepared by Celibate Singhs, according to Nanaksar Maryada. This makes complete sense as the original Panj Pyaray were all celibates. Daas will try to confirm the above info. Thanks for the info. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, paapiman said: Daas is almost certain that all the Singhs (Raagis in Jathas) under Srimaan Sant Baba Gurdev Singh jee Maharaaj are celibates. They receive no salaries for their Seva. Non-celibate Singhs can do Kirtan, Paath in Sachkhand, Langar Seva, etc, but they cannot become regular members of the Jatha. Also. Khanday wala Amrit can only be prepared by Celibate Singhs, according to Nanaksar Maryada. This makes complete sense as the original Panj Pyaray were all celibates. Daas will try to confirm the above info. Thanks for the info. Bhul chuk maaf yes Baba Gurdev Singh Jis jatha seems to be of really chardikala. If they are keeping the above maryada that is awesome. There is nothing better than that. Yea the original panh pyare during Baba Ishar Singh Jis time were all celibates. There was a jatha of around 100 celibate Singhs with Baba Ishar Singh Ji...but after Baba Ji times changed. Its awesome to see few Singhs who kept up with the maryada. btw Have you met Baba Gurdev Ji ? Bro, off topic, why do younger bihangams keep on giggling and looking around when doing Sampat path lol ? I have seen that many times. They need to pay attention to path. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 20 minutes ago, Gunahgar said: yes Baba Gurdev Singh Jis jatha seems to be of really chardikala. If they are keeping the above maryada that is awesome. There is nothing better than that. Yea the original panh pyare during Baba Ishar Singh Jis time were all celibates. There was a jatha of around 100 celibate Singhs with Baba Ishar Singh Ji...but after Baba Ji times changed. Its awesome to see few Singhs who kept up with the maryada. btw Have you met Baba Gurdev Ji ? Original Panj Pyaray - Srimaan Baba Daya Singh jee, Srimaan Baba Dharam Singh jee, Srimaan Baba Himmat Singh jee, Srimaan Baba Mokham Singh jee and Srimaan Baba Sahib Singh jee were all celibates. All the Gurudwaras under Srimaan Sant Baba Gurdev Singh jee Maharaaj follow the Maryada as taught by Srimaan 108 Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj. Gurparsaad, Daas has met Baba jee two times. Baba jee is in Delhi now. He had an operation on his leg. He was on bed rest, but now he can walk with an assistive device. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalpurkh Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 On 03/03/2016 at 9:58 AM, ramgharia said: why nanaksar ragiis are celibates? why the close the doors of sachkhand after asa di vaar? and also why the do prakash of guru granth sahib ji twice? GGGS - Page 324 If someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven't eunuchs obtained the state of supreme dignity? Says Kabeer, listen, O men, O Siblings of Destiny: without the Lord's Name, who has ever found salvation? ||4||4|| Guru Granth Sahib rejects Celibacy. No Sikh Gurus followed the path of Celibacy then why should Sikhs? On 03/03/2016 at 9:50 PM, paapiman said: Also. Khanday wala Amrit can only be prepared by Celibate Singhs, according to Nanaksar Maryada. This makes complete sense as the original Panj Pyaray were all celibates. Why only Celibates? Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was not a celibate when he first prepared Khande Di Pohol. If Guruji would want their Sikhs to follow celibacy, he himself would have practised it first. But No, he didn't, neither any Sikh Gurus. Panj Pyare were not celibates & No Sikh Gurus followed the path of Celibacy. Please read their history properly. I know @paapiman, many of the Nanaksari Maryada enthusiast, including you, would find problem digesting this & will start portraying me as anti-Brahmgyanis, anti-Gurmat etc etc, but its hard to expect any logical reasons from them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 26 minutes ago, akalpurkh said: GGGS - Page 324 If someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, why then haven't eunuchs obtained the state of supreme dignity? Says Kabeer, listen, O men, O Siblings of Destiny: without the Lord's Name, who has ever found salvation? ||4||4|| Guru Granth Sahib rejects Celibacy. No Sikh Gurus followed the path of Celibacy then why should Sikhs? Bro, Gurbani does not reject celibacy, but rejects hypocrisy. The above shabad is trying to the prove that by following celibacy only, one cannot attain salvation, which makes complete sense. One has to do plenty of naam simran along with celibacy, to achieve liberation. According to your line of thinking, one can easily prove that Gurbani rejects worldly education, charity, compassion, medical science, etc. 26 minutes ago, akalpurkh said: Panj Pyare were not celibates & No Sikh Gurus followed the path of Celibacy. Please read their history properly. Panj Pyaray were celibates. Some more personalities who were celibates include: - Srimaan Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Ajit Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Taru Singh jee Maharaaj and many more Gursikhs. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalpurkh Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 25 minutes ago, paapiman said: Some more personalities who were celibates include: - Srimaan Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Ajit Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Taru Singh jee Maharaaj and many more Gursikhs. None of the above people were celibates, -Baba Deep Singh Ji was married. -Bhai Taru Singh Ji & Baba Ajit Singh Ji were martyred at a very young age -Bhai Gurdas Ji's voluntary decision of not getting married doesn't ascertain that he followed celibacy. There are many Gursikh around us who don't get married because of their many personal reasons. No Sikh Guru followed celibacy. Is it not the biggest reason for us to validate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Some more personalities who were celibates include: - Srimaan Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Ajit Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj - Srimaan Shaheed Baba Taru Singh jee Maharaaj and many more Gursikhs. I heard about that as well, Can you please cite a source for this so that it shows it isnt black and white as people make out to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 If the Gurus produced children without intercourse please show the proof. All of the Gurus were advocating normal householder life and even Guru Gobind Singh Ji said to increase the love with your spouse as much as you can, but never even in your dreams go to the bed of another (proof he was speaking of physical relations and not just the emotion of love). Also the shabad posted by akalpurkh is NOT speaking about hypocrisy as suggested by Paapiman. If you read the entire shabad (by devotee Kabir Ji) it is speaking against practices of the yogis, including celibacy, as means to obtain the divine. As we know, the Gurus were against useless rituals. They keep reminding us over and over that you don't need to do all these false things, useless rituals to find God. Because God is within your own mind. The way to find God is through your own mind. Pay attention to the rahao line... ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥ गउड़ी कबीर जी ॥ Ga▫oṛī Kabīr jī. Gauree, Kabeer Jee: ਨਗਨ ਫਿਰਤ ਜੌ ਪਾਈਐ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ नगन फिरत जौ पाईऐ जोगु ॥ Nagan firaṯ jou pā▫ī▫ai jog. If Yoga could be obtained by wandering around naked, ਬਨ ਕਾ ਮਿਰਗੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਸਭੁ ਹੋਗੁ ॥੧॥ बन का मिरगु मुकति सभु होगु ॥१॥ Ban kā mirag mukaṯ sabẖ hog. ||1|| then all the deer of the forest would be liberated. ||1|| ਕਿਆ ਨਾਗੇ ਕਿਆ ਬਾਧੇ ਚਾਮ ॥ किआ नागे किआ बाधे चाम ॥ Ki▫ā nāge ki▫ā bāḏẖe cẖām. What does it matter whether someone goes naked, or wears a deer skin, ਜਬ ਨਹੀ ਚੀਨਸਿ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ जब नही चीनसि आतम राम ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Jab nahī cẖīnas āṯam rām. ||1|| rahā▫o. if he does not remember the Lord within his soul? ||1||Pause|| ਮੂਡ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਜੌ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ मूड मुंडाए जौ सिधि पाई ॥ Mūd mundā▫e jou siḏẖ pā▫ī. If the spiritual perfection of the Siddhas could be obtained by shaving the head, ਮੁਕਤੀ ਭੇਡ ਨ ਗਈਆ ਕਾਈ ॥੨॥ मुकती भेड न गईआ काई ॥२॥ Mukṯī bẖed na ga▫ī▫ā kā▫ī. ||2|| then why haven't sheep found liberation? ||2|| ਬਿੰਦੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਜੌ ਤਰੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥ बिंदु राखि जौ तरीऐ भाई ॥ Binḏ rākẖ jou ṯarī▫ai bẖā▫ī. If someone could save himself by celibacy, O Siblings of Destiny, ਖੁਸਰੈ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥ खुसरै किउ न परम गति पाई ॥३॥ Kẖusrai ki▫o na param gaṯ pā▫ī. ||3|| why then haven't eunuchs obtained the state of supreme dignity? ||3|| ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਨਰ ਭਾਈ ॥ कहु कबीर सुनहु नर भाई ॥ Kaho Kabīr sunhu nar bẖā▫ī. Says Kabeer, listen, O men, O Siblings of Destiny: ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਨਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੪॥੪॥ राम नाम बिनु किनि गति पाई ॥४॥४॥ Rām nām bin kin gaṯ pā▫ī. ||4||4|| without the Lord's Name, who has ever found salvation? ||4||4|| Now if what paapiman said was correct, that its somehow saying that celibacy AND remembering the Lord in your mind / soul are required for salvation, then it is also saying that wandering around naked is required! Both ideas, celibacy and wandering naked are presented and condemned in the exact same way! So if you are saying one is encouraged (but just not by itself) then the other one is too! So why aren't they running around naked while they are practicing celibacy? Except... that's not it. The shabad is clearly condemning these useless rituals as a means to find God. Because it tells us God is within our own mind and soul and we can only find God with naam. This is danger of taking single tuks out of context of the shabad! Anyway this is just my opinion and I am sure it will be ripped to pieces and people will nindiya me again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 And by the way Kaam does not mean Sex. Kaam is any uncontrolled desire. One could be longing for expensive cars, jewellery etc and it is considered kaam. But people think normal intimacy in a marriage means kaam. Its not. The emphasis is not on owning a car, or some jewellery but the excessive craving for these things, same as sex. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalpurkh Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Bro, Gurbani does not reject celibacy, but rejects hypocrisy. The above shabad is trying to the prove that by following celibacy only, one cannot attain salvation, which makes complete sense. One has to do plenty of naam simran along with celibacy, to achieve liberation. @paapiman Gurbani has a certain style of teaching, a way in which most of the teachings seems to be opposing hypocrisy only, but that's not the fact. Shabads in the Gurbani ends with a central idea of the whole context. Gurbani first talks about the Manmat (karam kand) and at the end the conveys & concludes the topic with a Gurmat Vichar, the right thought. sagal dharam me grihsth pardhan Quoting words of someother Gursikh "A grihasti jeevan is a MUST. This means that a Sikh has a life as a householder, family man, husband/wife and father/mother which means the Sikh MUST sail through the world ocean of Maya to get to the other side. A Sikh doesn't try to hide or become a recluse from society like the yogis in the caves do. Don't get me wrong.... Guru Nanak ji is Not saying that they don't get enlightened but Guru Nanak ji is saying that HIS SIKH can get enlightened whilst maintaining a grihsti jeevan and living/working in normal society" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalpurkh Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 12 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said: If the Gurus produced children without intercourse please show the proof. All of the Gurus were advocating normal householder life and even Guru Gobind Singh Ji said to increase the love with your spouse as much as you can, but never even in your dreams go to the bed of another (proof he was speaking of physical relations and not just the emotion of love). Finally, I can find someone in this crowd who talks Gurmat. Proud of you @CdnSikhGirl. No Ego here. There are people in this forum who are sooo much influenced by Alif Laila & other mystical, mythological & fairy stories that they have moved far away from being practical. For them, there has to some or other kind of magic to ascertain some person's spirituality, just as Hindus & Catholic brothers do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 1 hour ago, N30 S!NGH said: I heard about that as well, Can you please cite a source for this so that it shows it isnt black and white as people make out to be. Gurparsaad, will try to cite the source. Most likely, it was katha by Pandit Jagjit Singh jee Harkhowaal. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Additionally, to become a member of Sevapanthi Samprada, which traces its roots to Maharaaj (Tenth Master), one has to be a celibate. They are very strict on it. Nanaksar (under Srimaan Sant Baba Gurdev Singh jee) is also very strict on it. DDT, Nihangs, Rara Sahib, etc are flexible in this regard. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Marriage is not a must in Sikhism. It is recommended in Sikhism, but it is not mandatory. Below verses clearly prove that both life styles, whether ascetic or a householder, are accepted in Sikhism, as long as the person submits to the will of the Almighty Waheguru. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਗਿਰਸਤ ਉਦਾਸ ॥੪॥੪॥੫॥ Says Nanak, the who meets the Perfect Guru, is approved whatever he is a family man or an anchoret. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 8 hours ago, akalpurkh said: Finally, I can find someone in this crowd who talks Gurmat. Proud of you @CdnSikhGirl. No Ego here. There are people in this forum who are sooo much influenced by Alif Laila & other mystical, mythological & fairy stories that they have moved far away from being practical. For them, there has to some or other kind of magic to ascertain some person's spirituality, just as Hindus & Catholic brothers do. I don't think that Sikhi relies on magic, or superstitions to find God. In very simplest terms, Sikhi tells us one thing. God is within YOURSELF. Rest is building on that message. But the base message is that we are not these physical bodies, we are not even these identities we think we are. Remove the false ego identity and what is behind, the DOER, the EXPERIENCER... that IS us. And there is only ONE DOER. The message is go within yourself to find God. Remember... Just like a drop of water is part of the ocean, and when separated from the ocean, it is still water. But the thing is, we are the drops, and we have never actually left the ocean which is Waheguru, we just forget we were here. We don't need to be celibate, we don't need to pray to idols, we don't need to do useless rituals, even when we mathatek to SGGSJ, it's not the physical pages or ink we are bowing to. It's the truth contained within. Because God = Truth. Truth = God. Guru = God. There is ONE base truth to the Universe. People get so hung up on following a ton of rules, rituals and eventually it becomes about the rituals, and the original reason for them has been lost. Intimacy (within marriage) is part of this life. People keep thinking kaam = sex. It's not!!!! There is a reason why gurbani keeps comparing our merging back with waheguru as like husband and wife relations... its because intimacy, in that moment, when done without kaam (meaning without craving for only physical pleasure) when done as a pure act of love for your spouse and your energies merge literally... its akin to the merging of us with waheguru, albeit on a small scale. But its probably the closest we can get to what merging of our energy with another entity is like. Truth has been found by many people in the world, not only Sikhs. And many without following rules upon rules that in the end, seem to not even matter anymore because all of this you see around you, is transitory. I don't know if I can explain any better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalpurkh Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 14 hours ago, paapiman said: Marriage is not a must in Sikhism. It is recommended in Sikhism, but it is not mandatory. Below verses clearly prove that both life styles, whether ascetic or a householder, are accepted in Sikhism, as long as the person submits to the will of the Almighty Waheguru. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਗਿਰਸਤ ਉਦਾਸ ॥੪॥੪॥੫॥ Says Nanak, the who meets the Perfect Guru, is approved whatever he is a family man or an anchoret. Bhul chuk maaf C'mon @paapiman, how does it encourages Celibacy? I may not be perfect in my words, but let me give the central idea of this shabad. In the above shabad, Guru Nanak Maharaj is doing parchaar of Sikhi. A Sikh is a student and anybody from any walks of life may it be any Aughad sadhu, sanyasi, tapasvi, etc. can embrace its teaching & implement it in their life. Medical College dont seek doctors for the new admission but seeks people who are keen to become one & A person don't just becomes Doctor by just taking admission in medical college. Its a call from Guru Maharaj to the world however its a different story that we made Sikhi Punjab & Punjabi centric. The very sidhant of Sikhism is laid on Gristi Jeevan. All Guru Sahibs were gristi & they practiced what they preached. @paapiman why do you find it difficult to accept this fact even when our Guru Sahib himself were Gristi & not celibates? Is Nanksar and Nanksariye above Guru Sahibs? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 There is also a sakhi, from the times of Sri Satguru jee (Fifth Master), which illustrates that both lifestyles, are approved in Gurmat. Gurparsaad, will make a post related to it in the future. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Also, there are verses in Gurbani, which can be used(by narrow minded people) to reject a householder's lifestyle, for all people. ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਗਿਰਸਤ ਕਾ ਫਾਸਾ ॥ Children, Wife, and household are entanglements. ਹੋਨੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਦਾਸਾ ॥੧॥ The mortal cannot become the slave of the Lord. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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