Earths shape according to sikhi

[Guest NKaur]

Is the earth flat or round according to sikhi?

nasa has now confirmed that the earths shape is in fact oblate 

https://aplanetruth.info/2016/01/27/show-us-the-pear-shape-of-earth-nasa-and-mr-astrophysicist-neil-degrasse-tyson/

everything I have read online doesn't give me a clear enough picture on what is written in the SGGS

[Xylitol]

for the most part Guruji didn't focus much  on science facts in Bani b/c Guru ji focused on how we should live, and how to realise God. it's not a textbook and is very different from teh Bible and other dharmic granths. There are other Sikh granths that focused on more worldly topics such governance for a kingdom, and I know that in their lives the Gurus did teach environmental stewardship and such things. I have heard Guru ji did say that the world was round, but I do not know if this is an idea merely orally passed down, or if it is written somewhere. 

[paapiman]

Has anyone heard Katha or read the chapter on Sri Varha Avtar jee (one of the incarnations of Sri Vishnu jee) in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee? There might be a mention of Earth's shape in it. He brought the Earth back to its position, after a demon had moved it.

Have a look at the picture below.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrhsinghk]

I read just a bit about him on his avtaar he killed Hiranyaksha who was Hiranyakashipu's (Harnaksh) brother

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varaha

[LiquidSky]

 

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

It's all Symbolism. Varah Avtar, Dhawal the bull.

When we say Dhawal is holding up the Earth, we aren't talking about a bull holding up the ground.
ਧੌਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੂਤੁ ॥
Dhawal is righteousness, duty and responsibility, which is born of kindness. We are saying the world is being held in place by "righteousness, duty and responsibility", without which there would be chaos.

When we say Varah is holding up the Earth, we aren't talking about a boar holding up a piece of ground. Varah is Vishnu, Supreme Consciousness. Consciousness gives us the experience of the world. The world comes into view due to consciousness therefore you can say consciousness is holding up the world into view.

Consciousness has no image, it is the source of images, so you need an image to represent Consciousness. That image is the Varah avtar, which make no mistake, also includes the force of universe which Varah has put into place! Space, time, gravity, creation of the solar system are all created by Varah. But the image or Varah holding up the earth, that image specifically is referring to consciousness.

Guru Sahib is saying look inside yourself. He is pointing inside you and telling you to explore who is that who we call Varah, Narayan, who holds up your experience.

Who is the very source of your experience.

On 2016-10-05 at 2:31 PM, BhagatSingh said:

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
The creator of the world is Narsingh Narayan. He holds the universe into existence with his Tusks.

And

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥
Narayan resides everywhere, he illuminates each and every thing in the world.

Most people reading these verses in Gurbani have no idea of the meaning.

In plain English, Guru Sahib is saying Consciousness brings the world into view. it is the source of the world, the support of the world and the "illuminator" of the world.

Varah is that very source of your experience, who can improve your experience, make you more happier, allow you to enjoy all aspects of life and help you overcome challenges.

[WakeUp]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

When we say Varah is holding up the Earth, we aren't talking about a boar holding up a piece of ground. Varah is Vishnu, Supreme Consciousness. Consciousness gives us the experience of the world. The world comes into view due to consciousness therefore you can say consciousness is holding up the world into view.

 

Exactly!

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

[paapiman]

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Consciousness has no image, it is the source of images, so you need an image to represent Consciousness. That image is the Varah avtar, which make no mistake, also includes the force of universe which Varah has put into place! Space, time, gravity, creation of the solar system are all created by Varah. But the image or Varah holding up the earth, that image specifically is referring to consciousness.

Bro, you cannot use the anthriv arths of a story, to suggest that the actual historical event did not occur.

There are anthriv arths to Ramayan too. That does not mean that Sri Ram Chandar jee or Ravan did not physical exist in the past.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, you cannot use the anthriv arths of a story, to suggest that the actual historical event did not occur.

There are anthriv arths to Ramayan too. That does not mean that Sri Ram Chandar jee or Ravan did not physical exist in the past.

This is both a both historical (itihasic) and spiritual (antreev) thing.

Historical - Varah created the universe billions of years ago out of nothing. There could be non-existence but Varah pulled reality out of non-existence into existence.

Spiritual - Right this moment, Varah is holding up the cosmos, the Earth, your experience of it all, into existence. That Varah is sitting inside of you holding up your experience.

But you are acting foolishly, you make that story of Varah into a distant historical event, thereby removing any spiritual understanding you could possibly get out of it, and you forget about the entire thing. You forget to see Varah inside yourself.

Instead of seeing Varah in this very moment, as you read this sentence. You forget Varah. You forget that ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥  You forget that creator of the world, who is Narsingh Narayan, who holds the universe into existence with his Tusks.

In English - you forget your consciousness and you become materialistic. Focusing only on material events and material bodies.

Paapiman, if you keep on practicing this exercise of forgetting, when will you do the exercise of remembering - simaran?

[BhagatSingh]

If an artist wanted to draw this idea -> Consciousness holds up the world into view.
How would he draw this?

If somebody wanted to put into a picture format -> Consciousness bringing out reality into an ordered state that you can understand, out of a state of chaos that you cannot understand.

How would they put that into a picture?

Does Consciousness have a picture that they can use?
No. Because all pictures come from Consciousness.
But...
Yes... there is a picture. In Guru Granth Sahib, it is called Varah/consciousness and the picture of it is a varah/boar a conscious entity.

So then how would they do it?

Like so -


They would use existing imagery of the Varah, which means Supreme Consciousness, and show him holding up the world. If the artist makes a picture, then you start to worship that as a historical event, instead of seeing it happening right now.


If an artist wanted to show - God creating existence from non-existence, creating order from chaos.
Then how would he do it?
He would use images that people accept as images of God and show him spawning the universe.

Like so -



Vishnu which means Consciousness giving birth to universes, in which there is Vishnu also inside each universe. It's a fractal!

Because -
ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਏਕੁ ਨਰਾਇਣੋ ਹਰਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਾ ॥
The always still, the one Vishnu, who is beyond the human intellect, who is unapproachable with the mind.

That same Vishnu also exists everywhere.
ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥
Vishnu resides inside everyone, and he illuminates the mind, and each and everything in the world.

So the artist showed Vishnu creating the world, and then showed him inside the world, illuminating the world.

Now you could view it just a painting, and once the painting is no longer in front of you and you can forget about the entire thing.

You can either distance yourself from it or you can use the opportunity, and remember who is inside you and search for him if you do no see who it is right away. You can use this opportunity to remember, to do simaran.

[BhagatSingh]

16 hours ago, WakeUp said:

Exactly!

ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

This is what it looks like in Picture format -

 

It's a beautiful picture.

But people only look at the picture, they are materialistic. They forget what the picture means. Either due to ignorance or due to lack of sufficient practice of remembering.

[paapiman]

15 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

This is both a both historical (itihasic) and spiritual (antreev) thing.

Historical - Varah created the universe billions of years ago out of nothing. There could be non-existence but Varah pulled reality out of non-existence into existence.

Historical - Hirankhispu (elder brother of Harnakash) abducted earth (removed it from its orbit) and took it into the primordial waters. Vishnu jee takes the form of a boar to rescue the earth. Boar is chosen, as it is missing from the list of animals which can kill Hirankhispu. A long battle is fought between them, which results in the death of the demon.

 

21 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

But you are acting foolishly, you make that story of Varah into a distant historical event, thereby removing any spiritual understanding you could possibly get out of it, and you forget about the entire thing. You forget to see Varah inside yourself.

If someone ignores the spiritual understanding/deeper meanings of a sakhi, then he is being ignorant and narrow minded.

 

Bhul chuk maaf 

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

If someone ignores the spiritual understanding/deeper meanings of a sakhi, then he is being ignorant and narrow minded

That's exactly what you are doing.

Quote

Historical - Hirankhispu (elder brother of Harnakash) abducted earth (removed it from its orbit) and took it into the primordial waters. Vishnu jee takes the form of a boar to rescue the earth. Boar is chosen, as it is missing from the list of animals which can kill Hirankhispu. A long battle is fought between them, which results in the death of the demon.

Here you are just restating the story and ideas you have read or heard without paying any attention to what they mean. That's not knowledge. Even a parrot can repeat what it heard. Knowledge is making the right connections between different things, not parroting the things you have heard or read.

Let's start over.

The basic story is -
Hiranyaksh took earth into primordial waters. Vishnu ji pulled it out of primordial waters.

Let's consider the word "primordial waters" - What do you think this means?

[chatanga1]

22 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

It's all Symbolism. Varah Avtar, Dhawal the bull.

Bhagat Singh Ji, are the devi devte symbols as well in your opinion?

[chatanga1]

32 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Let's consider the word "primordial waters" - What do you think this means?

Nether regions? What of, I don't know. perhaps the mind?

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Bhagat Singh Ji, are the devi devte symbols as well in your opinion?

Dev and Devi are names of Supreme Reality in various Indian religions.

(This is why we say Nanak Dev, Nanak + addition of Dev, meaning Nanak who is God. For Sikh the Guru is always the image of the God. For example, Guru Chaitanya, who lived around the time of Guru Nanak is known as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, meaning Chaitanya who is God.)

The Divine is talked about with certain names, certain images, certain descriptions and certain stories. All of which are symbolic of the Divine. It is talked about in different ways in different religions.

Even to say Divine is to talk about it in a masculine way. It implies God.If I say Divinity, then that is feminine, Goddess.

To say Supreme Reality is to talk about it in a feminine way. It implies Goddess. To say Supreme Spirit is to talk about it in a masculine way, God.

Lao Tzu wrote that the Tao that can be named is not the real Tao But then we have to name it in order to talk about it. Even Lao Tzu used the name Tao.

And when we talk about it, we end up talking about it in many different ways. We get multiple Gods and Goddesses and we get multiple religions and practices.We get multiple stories and all that stuff.

In one society, when you combine all the ways of talking about the Divine Reality, then you get a multi-faceted Being like this.

In this painting, Krishna shows his original form as the Supreme Spirit to Arjun. The different faces represents how he appears to and interacts with different people.




We sing in Aarti -
ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤੋੁਹੀ ॥
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

[LiquidSky]

20 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Let's consider the word "primordial waters" - What do you think this means?

Heres a more better quality version than the last one.

 

 

 

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

That's exactly what you are doing.

The op did not ask for any spiritual/deeper meanings of any sakhi.

It was a simple question.

On 9/21/2016 at 11:45 PM, Guest NKaur said:

Is the earth flat or round according to sikhi?

 

Let's stick to the topic. We can discuss about Varah jee in some other topic. Good analysis by Bhagat jee though. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

11 hours ago, paapiman said:

The op did not ask for any spiritual/deeper meanings of any sakhi.

It was a simple question.

Let's stick to the topic. We can discuss about Varah jee in some other topic. Good analysis by Bhagat jee though.

The Op didn't but I made that suggestion to stop looking for earth shape and instead see the deeper meaning in the sakshi.

The enlightened people of the past were giving deeper insights in the stories they were telling us. They worshipped these stories and the characters; it meant a great deal to them. They considered them sacred, way higher than other subjects of history, geography, physics, maths etc.

So to go creeping in like a rat, looking for flat/round earth in the immense wisdom they gave is a disrespect of their precious gift.


I also explained why it was not about the shape of the earth but rather something else. In your reply to my post, you attempted to correct me by restating the story. This made me doubt whether you actually understood the story.

That's why I asked you -> You used the term "primordial waters", what do you think that term means?

So for you to now suggest that this is now Off-topic, instead of answering my question, is rather a convenient way to excuse yourself from the question.

[LiquidSky]

If you listen to the shabad Arti. Sounds like the thal is the Flat Earth. 

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-10-23 at 7:23 PM, LiquidSky said:

If you listen to the shabad Arti. Sounds like the thal is the Flat Earth. 

That's because it's being talked about from the perspective of standing on the ground and looking up at the sky.

But if you are going into Arti trying to see if the Earth is flat or not, you are missing the point.

[LiquidSky]

12 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

That's because it's being talked about from the perspective of standing on the ground and looking up at the sky.

But if you are going into Arti trying to see if the Earth is flat or not, you are missing the point.

I know Arti is a praise for God that everything is doing God's Arti. I was merely trying to talk about flat earth and trying to answer what "Guest NKaur" asked. But I think your maybe be blocking everyone from answering the question just by dismissing it. We live in a physical reality and the spritiual aspect does manitest physically. Why ive brought up flat earth on this forum is for people to question their reality, rather then just in blind faith execpt a globe model. In the Vedas it says the earth is flat, a much older text than Guru Granth Sahib. What has inspired people to talk about theses things?

Just image this for a second.

Everyone believes the earth is flat but there are religious books which say the earth is round? Peoples conclusion would then be most likely to laugh it off and then say this book is telling fairy tales. Sounds Familar? How is anyone going to take any spritual teaching seriously if it does not relate to the world they live in?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji clamied that he was a decendent of Luv and Kush (Childern of Sri Ram Chander) but people will say that Ram did not exist but was merely part of a mythological story.

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, LiquidSky said:

I know Arti is a praise for God that everything is doing God's Arti. I was merely trying to talk about flat earth and trying to answer what "Guest NKaur" asked. But I think your maybe be blocking everyone from answering the question just by dismissing it. We live in a physical reality and the spritiual aspect does manitest physically. Why ive brought up flat earth on this forum is for people to question their reality, rather then just in blind faith execpt a globe model. In the Vedas it says the earth is flat, a much older text than Guru Granth Sahib. What has inspired people to talk about theses things?

Just image this for a second.

Everyone believes the earth is flat but there are religious books which say the earth is round? Peoples conclusion would then be most likely to laugh it off and then say this book is telling fairy tales. Sounds Familar? How is anyone going to take any spritual teaching seriously if it does not relate to the world they live in?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji clamied that he was a decendent of Luv and Kush (Childern of Sri Ram Chander) but people will say that Ram did not exist but was merely part of a mythological story.

Good points.

What I have been seeing over times is this pattern -

- people ignore the meaning of the story

- they want to justify that scripture contains modern science (or as athiests - dismiss the scripture as bad science)

- they want to look for itty bitty details without having understanding

 

I'd be the first to search and study flat earth references. But I am that position to do so because I have first made efforts to understand what the value of the story, the meaning, the message, is.

Now that I understand it, I can satisfy my thirst for finding flat earth references. But if that's the first thing I did is to go looking for flat earth references then I missed the point entirely.

And this is what happens.

Let's say someone believes that the Earth is round. And in some spiritual book it says the earth is flat. They get so focused on the flat earth part, that they then reject the entire book. This is what modern atheists do.

And that is a foolish thing to do in my opinion.

I had a Muslim guy show me that verse from the aarti and said look it says Sun and Moon are lamps. We know Moon does not generate its own light, it reflects light, so this is wrong.

I just face-palmed. He missed the point.

If some flat-earther says look at this verse from aarti, it says Sun and Moon are lamps. I have a theory that moon is a flat disk that generates its own light, and Gurbani confirms it.

Its just as cringe-worthy as above. He also missed the point.

 

So first step should be to understand the meaning of the story, the poem.

 

 

[paapiman]

On 10/25/2016 at 8:27 PM, BhagatSingh said:

I had a Muslim guy show me that verse from the aarti and said look it says Sun and Moon are lamps. We know Moon does not generate its own light, it reflects light, so this is wrong.

A lamp also does not generate its own light. It needs an external source. Not a great try by that guy.

 

Bhul chuk maaf