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paapiman

Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee Series - Charitar #21

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54 minutes ago, paapiman said:

According to Niddar's book, she was a virgin widow. Her husband had died before the "Muklawa" was sent.

Now, it makes sense why Maharaaj was sympathetic to her (gave her money at the end), even though she played a heinous Charitar.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Seems like the whole panth is quiet about this book. Good on you pappiguy reading it. Please tell us more about the book. Topics on the various charitters 

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7 hours ago, paapiman said:

According to Niddar's book, she was a virgin widow.

Does he give any reason for saying that?

 

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Her husband had died before the "Muklawa" was sent.

What were the traditions then of weddings? Where does muklava feature as part of them?

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6 hours ago, Crystal said:

Seems like the whole panth is quiet about this book.

I would say that is because of a lack of understanding about the Granth. Same with Zafarnama as most Sikhs don't have any understanding of Persian. Only a select few lines are known.

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On 1/19/2018 at 3:25 PM, chatanga1 said:

Does he give any reason for saying that?

Oral tradition.

He also mentions that Bhai Chaupa Singh jee has refereed to her as Roop Kaur.

On 1/19/2018 at 3:25 PM, chatanga1 said:

What were the traditions then of weddings? Where does muklava feature as part of them?

People were married at early age (as children). Girls would stay at the parents until puberty.

Khatri widows were not allowed to remarry and were also looked down upon in society. They were expected to burn on their husband's pyre. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 8/21/2017 at 9:57 AM, amardeep said:

Also I think the line of crawling through her legs is some sort of Indian metaphor. The translation seems wrong and out of place.

According to Niddar, passing under someone's legs is considered a great insult in the Punjabi culture. It indicates that you agree to be powerless or impotent in front of him/her.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Nidar has a lot of knowledge on khashatrya traditions. As many charitars deal with rajputs it will be interesting to read his commentary on those that deal with rajput rulers and chiefs. Im planning to buy the book within a few days.

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On 1/23/2018 at 6:56 AM, amardeep said:

Nidar has a lot of knowledge on khashatrya traditions. As many charitars deal with rajputs it will be interesting to read his commentary on those that deal with rajput rulers and chiefs. Im planning to buy the book within a few days.

Did you buy the book? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 8/21/2017 at 6:35 AM, amardeep said:

Yes well spotted. Argumentation: Using Dharam to justify a-dharmic behaviour.

Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion.

Please forgive me for being explicit.

Let's think of some ways in which our own people (or our minds) might try to justify immoral (and against Gurmat) sexual behaviour.

Possible Examples (from a Manmukh's perspective):

  • Amritdhari perspective  - I can have sex (outside of marriage) and then have my sin forgiven by going for a Peshi. Sri Satguru jee is all forgiving.
  • Vaginal sex is a Bajjar Kurehit, but I can try other forms of sex (Oral, Anal, Masturbation, Dry humping, etc).
  • Sex before marriage is fine, but sex after marriage is strictly forbidden in Sikhism.
  • Non-Amritdhari perspective - I am not an Amritdhari, so I can have sex (outside of marriage). That rule does not apply to me.
  • Mona perspective - I am a Mona. I have already committed a big sin by cutting my hair. So, sex (outside of marriage) is not a big deal for me.
  • If I don't have sex with someone (non-Spouse) I love, he/she might reject or break-up with me.
  • If I don't have sex with someone (non-Spouse) I love, she might think I am an impotent.
  • Sex (outside of marriage) with a Muslim woman is forbidden, but one can have sex (outside of marriage) with non-Muslim ones.
  • Sex (outside of marriage) with a Sikh woman is forbidden, but one can have sex (outside of marriage) with non-Sikh ones.
  • If we don't have sex (outside of marriage) with our women, our women might seek non-Sikh men.
  • Our population is already low, we need to have more and more kids (even if it means going outside of marriage). The Government will take care of kid. This sort of thinking can come up, especially in countries like Canada, etc, where single mothers get government benefits.
  • Having sex is very important in order to avoid certain psychological disorders. I cannot afford to get married, so I need to have sex to stay sane. Sri Satguru jee will understand my predicament.
  • I am planning to marry my girlfriend. Eventually, she will become my wife, so I can have sex with her.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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@paapiman @amardeep @Soulfinder

An interesting paragraph that I wanted to share with you concerning these lines :

 

ਦੋਹਰਾ Dohira

 

ਕਾਮਾਤੁਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਜੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਆਵਤ ਨਰ ਕੇ ਪਾਸ ॥

(She said,) ‘When a sexually distressed woman comes to a male,

ਮਹਾ ਨਰਕ ਸੋ ਡਾਰਿਯੈ ਦੈ ਜੋ ਜਾਨ ਨਿਰਾਸ ॥੧੮॥

‘And that male who turns her back disappointed, is worthy of hell.’(l8)

 

image.thumb.png.4be19f73ce1cdcae216789081f23fbc3.png

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52 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

@paapiman @amardeep @Soulfinder

An interesting paragraph that I wanted to share with you concerning these lines :

 

ਦੋਹਰਾ Dohira

 

ਕਾਮਾਤੁਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਜੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਆਵਤ ਨਰ ਕੇ ਪਾਸ ॥

(She said,) ‘When a sexually distressed woman comes to a male,

ਮਹਾ ਨਰਕ ਸੋ ਡਾਰਿਯੈ ਦੈ ਜੋ ਜਾਨ ਨਿਰਾਸ ॥੧੮॥

‘And that male who turns her back disappointed, is worthy of hell.’(l8)

 

image.thumb.png.4be19f73ce1cdcae216789081f23fbc3.png

Excellent find.

It would be interesting to investigate, what does the original codes of conduct (according to the Hindu scriptures) for Khatris/Kshatiyas say about this matter?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

@paapiman @amardeep @Soulfinder

An interesting paragraph that I wanted to share with you concerning these lines :

 

ਦੋਹਰਾ Dohira

 

ਕਾਮਾਤੁਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਜੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਆਵਤ ਨਰ ਕੇ ਪਾਸ ॥

(She said,) ‘When a sexually distressed woman comes to a male,

ਮਹਾ ਨਰਕ ਸੋ ਡਾਰਿਯੈ ਦੈ ਜੋ ਜਾਨ ਨਿਰਾਸ ॥੧੮॥

‘And that male who turns her back disappointed, is worthy of hell.’(l8)

 

image.thumb.png.4be19f73ce1cdcae216789081f23fbc3.png

Brilliant find thanks veer ji for sharing.

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On 8/22/2017 at 7:05 PM, chatanga1 said:

To me the above lines are this:

 

(woman saying):

today with me, create friendship and make romance

otherwise you can leave by passing under my legs 28

(Raja saying in response)

Those who pass under the legs are unable to perform intercourse

They pass all night as a eunuch unable to perform.

 

Passing under the legs of someone is equivalent to being their slave, or being worthless , having no status at all. Seeing as this is a Raja, obviously he will be very reluctant to do this, and it seems to me that he is trying to avoid doing this so threatens that anybody who does this loses the power to perform intercourse. This is turn frightens the woman as she will not want to turn the raja into a eunuch for the night as she needs him to perform intercourse.

 

That make any sense?

 

 

 

Just wanted to add to this act of "passing between something " to signify submission :

 

image.thumb.png.fa204d420b0946a0bf2e587b20dc0206.png

 

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