Kuttabanda2

Ohhh, I confused him with someone else.

The inconsistencies were throughout the sarroop. Talwara and Vedanti checked all these Sarroops to do Shudhai of the mistakes made by the SGPC in their printed Sarroops. And there's no harm in reading a book for research.

Madhavnal Kaam Kandla existed prior to Dasmesh Pita Ji. We can't doubt the Original Kartarpuri Bir, of course. Only problem is....we don't have it. Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhinderawale, Bhai Jodh Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Gyani Ishar Singh & Gyani Narain Singh (as a team), Bhai Mana Singh, Swami Harnam Das Udasin, and Bhai Randhir Singh Research Scholar each did Darshan of the Bir that the Kartar Sodhis have/had. They didn't believe that the Birs (note plural) that are with the Kartarpuri Sodhis aren't authentic. Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji himself said there were at least 1,000 differences between the Kartarpuri Bir and the DamDami Bir. Another interesting thing is that there was only one of 4 different types of Birs being shown to each Scholar by the Kartarpuri Sodhis, thus each of the scholar's observations were vastly different. This raises some suspicion on the Kartarpuri Sodhis who claim to have his Bir. It seems they were circulating which Bir to show to the Scholars each time they come. Not to say the Kartarpuri Bir written by Panchmesh Pita Ji didn't exist, it did. But it's not what these Kartarpuri Sodhis are showing. It's very likely that the original Kartarpuri Bir became Shaheed in the fire during the attack at Gurdwara Thamb Sahib, as it was claimed by historians. Or that the kartarpuri Sodhis are doing something mischievous. This isn't to say we don't have copies from that time. There are still Pothis out there that are copies of the Kartarpuri Bir written by and/or signed by the Guru Sahibans themselves, from 6th to 10th Patshah. We still have those, luckily.

According to non-Sikh Historians and the book itself, apparently he did exist and he wrote this. There were 2 Kavi Alams in history. From what I see, the spelling is different, not numbered, etc. No major difference between the two texts.

which book is this from?

That contradicts the statement he made in his previous paurdi. None the less, he had a doubt and expressed his uncertainty either way.

His book detailed only the Raagmala controversy, not the history of the Birs. Can't say what happened to the originals of Baba Deep Singh Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji. This isn't to say we don't have any Sarroop signed, checked, and/or stamped by our Guru Sahibans and Puraatan Hazoori Sikhs, we still have those, but the ones you guys mentioned were checked by Vedanti and Talwara (who's sole aim was to check, bring and into light some of the errors in SGPC's printed sarroops) and were found inconsistent with one another.

That is true. My Massi's in-laws entire pind+extended Clans was Muslim before. Before Partition, they had a bit of veneration for the Gurus. But during Partition, They had to choose between the two. They had fully converted to Sikhism, albeit, they kept some Bist Doabi muslim traditions and traits going. Same with Muslims or new Sikhs, in the Shahkot-Massiah area of Jalandhar.

Is Sehajdhari what you're talking about?

What Justice could you possibly reap from Partition? Your reasoning is that Sikh girls being kidnapped and forcibly converted today in Pakistan, is ok, because Muslim women left behind in East Panjab during partition were also forcibly converted to Sikhism? (By the way, sikh women were kidnapped and forcibly converted during partition as well.) we live in the 21st Century now....Well, at least we non-muslims do. Sikhs in Pakistan live peacefully there because when they're girls are kidnapped, and their temples demolished or taken over, they stay quiet, well aware of the fact that they're a vulnerable minority in an Islamic nation. As for your ridiculous assertions. Guru Gobind Singh didn't kill 5 people to form the Khalsa. The Masands were boiled alive and burned for their crimes against the people, which is well deserved. Go ahead, make a video. It'll just demostrate your ignorance. One would ought to know about a faith before criticizing it. On the topic of Criticization, You take the above video, a video that highlights a problem, and brings to light a case of human rights violation as a criticism of Islam? How do you connect those two dots? Is it an insecurity? Lol, the shortcomings of our community? One only needs to read the Quran and the ahadith themselves to see the "lies". Our community is prospering one way or another. Sikhs in the west have it easier. We tend to be more educated and financially secure, we ASSIMILATE quite easily due to our Liberal philosophy and outlook as a community. We gain more converts than we lose. Islam is losing quite a lot to Atheism and rationality itself. Most Sikhs that leave their faith are ones who have become Atheists/agnostics. Here in the west, we tend to grow due to our ideals and compatible principles. As a community, we don't look towards converting more individuals to boast. The only person playing the victim card is you, as usual. That's kind of established now. The condoning of Wife-beating, sex slaves, lashing adulterers, and the laws regarding rape. None of those are compatible with the moral code shared by the rest of the world. Thankfully, the more your people move into the west, the more your faith itself will begin to deteriorate, as the West secularizes all people who assimilate within it.

Could you provide examples of objectionable assertions within that book? Or what you found that showed this shallow intellect?

Gyani Gurdit Singh didn't believe any of those Sarroops that you mentioned to be penned down by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh Ji. He believed both indivuduals did write Sarroops, but they ones being shown around today aren't their Sarroops. That was his assertion. Joginder Singh Talwara and Jathedar Vedanti examined all these claimed Sarroops and found them inconsistent with one another.

It came from Madhavnal Kaam Kandla. Shamsher Singh Ashok published the entire book. Prof. Anurag Singh took an interesting approach as a scholar. I have no respect for him, not because of his beliefs in Raagmala and Nanakshahi Calendar. He seems to profess anything that wins him his crowd, albeit within a certain boundary. He's now claiming the AKJ Bhai Randhir Singh's letter to Gyani Gurdit Singh was falsified and supports an assertion his own father bore testimony against. His defense of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is very appreciated, however. He's recieved a lot of popularity recently, and but has been restricted to a certain crowd for which he changed his previous opinions and ideas over.

What is the translation of the next Pauri? You forgot to show that. Just curious.

Malwe Desh Rattan Ki Sakhi Pothi is of Sakhis related to 9th and 10th Patshah in the Malwa Region of Panjab. Gur Rattan Mal is the old Sau Sakhi, apparently written by Ram Kuir Ji/Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji and/or Bhai Sahib Singh, is a book that deals specifically with the 10th Guru. It has a load of interpolation, but Shudai can be done by consulting old manuscripts. I don't remember if Kavi Santokh Singh cited these two books in Suraj Prakash. But many Sakhis in Suraj Prakash are ditto copies of those two books.

Mid 1700s most likely. Malwe Desh Rattan Ki Sakhi Pothi maybe even earlier.

How did you guys come this far debating on a wide range of subjects without a grasp of this kind of vocabulary? You find it your run of the mill Punjabi-Sikh books. I have no intent on offending anybody here.

this is a little disheartening to read.

He said it wasn't Guru-kit. ਲਿਖੇ ਸਮਸਤ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਸੋਅੂ, ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਮਾਂਹਿ । ਅੰਤ ਸਰਬ ਕੇ ਲਿਖਿ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ, ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੁਹਰ ਲਗੀ ਜਨੁ ਵਾਹਿ । ਭੋਗ ਸਕਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੋ ਪਾਯਹੁ, ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਕਹੀ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ । ਭਵਜਲ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੋ ਜਹਾਜ ਬਜ਼, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਰ ਪਰਾਇ ॥੩੯॥ ਰਾਗਮਾਲ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਿਹਂ, ਹੈ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਲਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਬੈਨ । ਇਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨਿਹਂ ਸੰਸੈ ਕੁਛ ਕਰੀਅਹਿ, ਜੇ ਸੰਸੈ ਅਵਿਲੋਕਹੁ ਨੈਨ । ਮਾਧਵ ਨਲ ਆਲਮ ਕਿਵ ਕੀਨਸਿ, ਤਿਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨ੍ਰਿਤਕਾਰੀ ਕਹਿ ਤੈਨ । ਰਾਗ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਨਾਮ ਗਿਨੇ ਤਿਹਂ, ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਅਰਜਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਹੈਨ ॥੪੦॥

I wholeheartedly agree with that, we have to be smart to survive as minorities in other countries, especially these Islamic ones. Survivalism entails not putting ourselves in situations that will result in our demise.

Though it may seem possible, it's unlikely for it erupt into a world war, unless of course other countries have vested interests and bones to pick, or other conflicts escalate at the same time. Say, for example, a war in the South China Sea, or a NATO vs. CSTO war, or some war in the middle east), then we may see the onset of another world war. Otherwise, the world's major/global powers (regardless of their relations with India and Pakistan) would sit back and employ diplomacy and stand on an ethical high ground by not interfering in a war.

That is true, Dasmesh Pita Ji commanded us to keep Khalsai Achaaran even in times of battle and warfare. The acts of violence against women and children in 1947 is a permanent stain upon our history.

Dhanvaad Ji. That'd be wonderful

The average Sikh has prioritized financial, social, and personal success/prosperity (i.e Avarice) over faith. Both can be central to one's life and thought, with Sikhi taking precedence with no compromise to the former. But apne don't think that way. Dharam for them, are a set of traditions and beliefs convenient to their lifestyle and a cultural nuance they put up with. It's a product of this modern individual-centric social mentality, that supersedes and suppresses a wider sense of communal identity, belonging, and responsibility, a reason why Daswand isn't so widely practiced anymore among Sikhs anymore as they have developed apathy and indifference for fellow Sikhs. Due to this, they don't study their faith, or even read for pleasure or intellectual enrichment, thus books become irrelevant and unimportant for such these dull 'Sikhs'. Also a reason why we have Sikh kids growing up in Sikh households with little to no awareness and interest in the faith and community they were brought up with.

Ohh my bad. Read somewhere that it was panjve Patshahi's. I could agree, Sikhs there aren't as bellicose as their Jat/Tarkhan/Mazhabi counterparts. I can understand why they feel that way, if they retaliated, it would just turn their already uncertain situation into a communal frenzy. Being a minority in a 98% Muslim country would be enough to cause anxiety. The general mentality of the Pakistani populous is bigoted enough due to the Country's Islamization and Islamic indoctrination, I wouldn't be surprised if another series of pogroms take place there. I guess we'll have to wait for political circumstances to change in the region for us to see any hope in that area.