amandeepm

This huy has been trying to seel this for a long time. its isn really rotten condition and worth very littel (as an artifact). Its not especially rare either and does not date from M Ranjit Singh's time (and therefore couldnt be 18th century !) aman

The Kapurthala Palace is the Sanik School (a very high class private school). If you ask nicely at teh gate they let you in - although it helps if you ring in advance and talk to the headmaster but they are very accomodating. They dont let you inside the building itself, but often there is the odd door open, they certainly dont let you into the grnad parts of the building which are kept pretty well preserved but completely unused. In Kapurthala its also worth visitng the Caccherria (law courts) which was the Indian palace of the Maharajah (built by his father I think) and if you root around the old city theer are a coupl of interesting havelis. In Patiala the old fort (Qila Mubarack) is being restored, at long last, and will open to the public at some stage (unless the khalsitanis think that this is another GOI plot and scream to get that shut down!). The irritating thing is taht there are some really wonderful sites in East Punjab but they are totally innaccessible unless you are willing to bribe, pander and sweet talk your way in and quite honestly very few people are. aman

Freed, another excellent post with some really powerful images. Perhaps those idealogues who opposed the UNESCO dossier woudl like to offer a realistic approach to preserving heriateg rather than shouting about sovereignty hysterically seeing the application as a GOI plot! This is what happens when sikh leadership is left to its own devices. Slowly they will turn The Darbar Sahib into a giant golak and pave over the sarovar to make seating for sikhs to listen to kirtan blasted out over loudspeakers.

The last time I was in India I snuck into Jagatjeet Singh's Versailles style Eleysee palace and took a few shots before being kicked out. Its a really intriguing enormous french building with beutiful guilded interiors stuck in the middle of rural punjab. I will send some pics for someone to post aman

Another Excellent post. The lady on the bottom right of the last pic is the wife og K Natwar Singh, now India's External Affairs MInister and an expert on the Pataial Royal family. He wrote a really good bio of the M titled The Magnificetn maharajah (Harper Collins). More recently there was a book by an Australian writer Corallie Younger calle Wicked Women of the Raj which explored some of the sexual exploits taht Indian princes had with Western Women - Pataial loomed large ! aman

Yes, in Cairo they are used to the Sradar managers of the Oberoi Hotel chain so they think that you are one of them so you get good treatment (but littel chance of a discount)

Nice. I was in Rome a few weeks ago with my wife and son (Khem Singh). This was during the innaugaration weekend of Benedict XVI. A funny thing happened there. We were living a little bit out of the centre of town to avoid the crowds in an area just south of the Colloseum and well away from the tourist traffic. On the morning of the innaugaration we made our way towards the vatican through a route that took in an old church that I wanted to see. As we walked we were passed by some well dressed indinas wearing ramaals, then by more and more men wearing ramals, some with khandas on them. Soon we reached a park where about 60-70 Sikhs had gathered to start a Nagar Kirtan through the streets ! Most were Mona Sikhs, some were local hindu boys the vast majority men. There were about 5-6 women and a few kids. I spoke to only a few and it was clear that they were very nervous about outsiders. Most of the men were illegal and had only just arrived in the country. It turns out that Italy is a reasonably easy country to get into from India and once in most Sikh men find employment selling tourist trinkets/water etc in the tourist areas. Over the years there have been immigration amnestys and some of the lucky ones have become permanent. When they get EU passports they quickly move to teh UK. Italy and Italians are not especially welcoming to foregners. I have never really had any problems (I regularly travel to Italy for work) but on this trip with my wife and son we did manage to walk right into a fascist rally (swastikas and Heil Hitlers salutes and all !) I have pics of the Nagar Kirtan in Rome if anyone can tell me how to post these? amandeep

another great picture post. I have some pics from this too, and the symbolism is interesting. In fact as you wonder around the Harimandir it is quite clear that the modern khanda dates from around 1930 as the symbol just isnt used until that time. On this 1894 memorial the symbolism used is redolent of that seen on the standards/flags in old prints, woodblack prints and on the Harimandir models that were mades around th same period (see the one in the ROM for a really similar version). The symbols look like a chakkar, a kard and a bhagauti). McLeod posits that the chakkar is in fact a Degh (viewed from above), the kard is a Tegh and the bhaghauti the symbol for victory (Fateh) ie Degh, Tegh Fateh. This seems possible. Keep them coming

Yep, that's another good one - which transaltion would you recomend? Becuase it was originally in poetic form it isnt really supposed to be an accurate historical record more of a eulogy and the translations are pretty clumsy at best. but it is of course a worthy addition to the book list. Some of the best researched and most knowledgeable sources on the Anglo Sikh Wars are the war game modellers who invest hundreds of hours in painstackingly recreating battles on a minature scale. THey go into immense amounts of uniform detail for their models and the terrain and then try tio understand exactly what happened. have a look at : http://www.magweb.com/tourmw/news/0401/1q17sikh.htm and the work of the perry twins. More recently there has been a osprey book published by one of the perrys covering the period with some info on the a-s wars.

I would strongly recomend : Six BAttles for India : Bruce George (hard to find these days) History of the Sikhs , Hari Ram Gupta How the SIkhs lost their kingdom , Khushwant Singh Raj, Lawrence James (breif but very readbale account) Cunningham HIstory fo the Sikh poepel . . almost contemporaneous account the latest trans of Umdat Ut Tawarick Daftar V have fun

The life of a factory farmed chicken is pretty grim but this story is an urban hoax. Its been around for years and you only need to see KFCs website to see them using the word chicken numerous times. But this is a calssic internet hoax

I've never previously written on threads that have the words "UK Nihangs" "Sanatan" "nangs" etc in them, simply because they descend into hysteria and finger pointing along the lines of "my fourth cousin twice removed once met a bloke on the bus who overheard someone talking to Nidar Singh on a crackly mobile phone and he said . . . " This seems to be no different. However, I really have to add to my voice to this question and I apologise for actually having met and spoken to many of the people and having some first hand experience !!(I know we dont an informed voice on Internet boards but here I go) I travelled with, and spent a great deal of time with the Buddha Dal back in about 1990-1993. I spent a great deal of time around the Dal with a Farladaar Akali Singh (who happens also to be my mums youngest brother), I also met Santa Singh and spoke to a number of his close associates and continue to do so, although not nearly as much now as back then. I feel I have a pretty good knowledge of the BD and it's ancient philosophy and indeed it's own personal shortcomings and issues. I also met Nidar Singh while I lived in Wolverhampton around 1989-90ish. And funnily enough Harjit Singh from Watford introduced Nidar Singh to me in Slough sometime in the mid nineties when I was working back in London! After an long initial interaction with him I have had really sporadic contact with him. I have gone to hear him talk only a few times including just one of the recent Sanatan Sikh talks in London and spent some hours talking with him on a one-to-one basis -I didn’t even go to the V&A talk back in 2003 (that I had organised). Why am I telling you this? well, the reason that I dont really go and listen to him is quite simple he has little to say that is particularly new to me. What I am saying is that what I heard and experienced back in the Buddha Dal first hand from Akalis and from Santa Singh's kathha and writings seems entirely congruent with what Nidar Singh seems to be advocating - there really is no difference - it is pretty well down the middle BD philosophy. What is different is the context - ie in the English language, with a certain flair and strength of argument and increasingly with a good historical reference rather than a reliance on Oral trads alone. He also stresses the shaster vidhyia aspect far more strongly than I had heard in India/Punj all those years ago. My final comment would be that the Buddha Dal is a "broad church" it is not the strictly codified, highly regimented organisation that many modern Sikh organisations endevour to be. This makes it incredibly open to all and it also means that the breadth of knowledge is very wide. I have fond memories of a Nihangs whose expertise lay in breeding horses, or growing bhang or the art of the nagaara or whatever and I suspect that Nidar Singh’s personal expertise in the knowledge and arts of weapons is a special characteristic of his. As an historian I am surprised at and encouraged by the academic and scholarly rigour of the argument that is presented and I am sure that the Dal is fortunate to have Nidar Singh reclaiming and conserving some of the lost arts that are so central to their very being. Now you can all kill me Amandeep Madra

thank you for your kind comments - it is welcoming ot get some constructive comments from readers. We didnt realise when we started the research taht the vast bulk of the records would be firmly in the 18th century. In fact from about 1740 to 1810. This gives a really detaile insight into the values, norms and parctices of the sikhs from the period after the Gurus but before the heady days of the sikh courts. I recall some dreadful sikh history book from India that devoted some 8 chapters on the lives of the gurus and a similar number of chapters on RAnjit Singh but just 9 lines - yes 9 lines - on the century bewteen those two periods ! THe problem is that the records havent been well published in the past - whether they are european or persian - wiht this book and with J S Grewals excellent "Sikh History from Persian Sources" we can now start to better undertsand a really critical period in our history. Some people have been upset at the title, but for me it sums up the entire 18th Century for the Sikh people. The title comes from a scribbled note in a letter from the traveler George Forster. He was traveling through sikh territory in the punjab spying on the sikhs whilst dressed as a turkish horse trader. Throughout his letters he is petrified of the sikhs - absolutely scared whitless - its very funny and in absolute sharp contrast to the rather patronising view of sikhs by the brits some 100 years later when brits refered to sikhs as "excellent men - who woudl willingly take a bullet for their master or our mem sahibs"!. Well in the 18th C the tables were turned and we scared the pants of the brits - as george Forster finally and with great relief escapes from the Sikh territory he wildly scribbles in his final letter "Unhurt by Sicques, Tigers or Thieves I arrive at Nurpur " We couldnt not use that as the title could we ? Once again, thanks for your kind comments with regards aman

[align=center:7c2cb7069c]From the authors of Warrior Saints, introducing a fascinating new reconstruction of Sikh History through eyewitness accounts: "Sicques, Tigers or Thieves" : Eyewitness Accounts of the Sikhs (1606-1809), Amandeep Singh Madra and Parmjit Singh. Palgrave Macmillan, New York, 2004 see www.sicques.com for more information[/align:7c2cb7069c] In 1810, Sir John Malcolm published the ground-breaking Sketch of the Sikhs. Contrary to popular belief, Malcolm was not the first European to write an account of the Sikhs. In the previous two centuries, soldiers, travellers, administrators, scholars, missionaries and empire-builders had witnessed the development of the Sikhs. The letters, diaries, newspaper accounts and memoirs of these men and women have been painstakingly researched and compiled to shed light on a little-understood period of Sikh history. A fascinating account of the Sikhs as seen by foreign travellers in the land which was to become their kingdom. They give us an insight into the macho self-image that Sikhs have to this day - anything you can do I can do better. This spirit of upmanship has sustained the community miniscule in numbers but grand in achievements - KHUSHWANT SINGH, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR (History of the Sikhs) Better than time travel... a richly-peopled, intimate journey through the dawn of Sikh history - CHRISTY CAMPBELL, AUTHOR (The Maharajah's Box) "Sicques, Tigers or Thieves" promises to include the following highlights: 1. Over 35 of the earliest European accounts of the Sikhs in one volume, many previously unpublished. 2. Over 20 of the earliest images of Sikhs including those by, or commissioned for, Europeans. 3. The only European written account of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan in a new translation of the original 17th century Portuguese text. 4. The first ever translations of French accounts of Sikhs. 5. Several early British newspaper reports of Sikh military activity in the late 18th century, not known to have previously been published in any other work. 6. The chroniclers, many unaware of the traditions of this new faith group, have often witnessed unorthodox practices and extrapolated these as articles of faith. In many cases these statements provide a useful insight on early Sikh practices, but in some instances they can be misleading (the editors introductory remarks and endnotes will address these areas). [/font:7c2cb7069c]

By the way - this entire intiative is a premium-rate phone call driven one. When you call it costs you 50p (about $1) not 0.5p as Phaldip claims. There really isnt any merit in this other than to line the pockets of the people behind this orgnaisation. aman

Dear SMS Excellent posting some really good food for thought here. A forthcoming publication titled "sicques Tigers or Thieves : Eyewitness Accounts of the Sikhs 1606-1809" discusses Banda at some length, in context of some early accoutns of Sikhs by Europeans. James Browne in India Tracts 1788 is quite clear that Banda was in the Khalsa. The text notes that Banda Bahādur ‘enrolled himself in the fraternity of the Sicks’. There is little question that Banda became a Sikh of Gurū Gobind Singh. There is some contention over whether he took Khande di Pahul and became a Khālsa Sikh. Hari Ram Gupta is strongly of the opinion that Banda was not baptised into the Khālsa fraternity . Citing largely political reasons as the motivator, Gupta quotes from Rattan Singh Bhangu’s Prachin Panth Prakash and Giani Gian Singh’s Panth Parkash. Other historians have also supported this view, Kartar Singh Kalaswalia, bab Bhdur, 1924 (Gurmukhi), Karam Singh Historian in Jiwan Britant Baba Banda Bahadur, Chief Khālsa Diwan (Gurmukhi), Bhai Sohan Singh, Banda the Brave pp 27-28, Daulat Rai xx, Sir Denzil Ibbetson, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, Vol 1, Lahore (1919) pg 698 and Khazan Singh, History and Philosophy of the Sikh Religion, Lahore 1914, pg 207. Gupta, further quoting Santokh Singh’s Suraj Granth states; ‘He was not in accord with the Khālsa. Without the Gurū’s approval he started his own sect. He did not take baptism of the dagger. He did not adopt the Sikh way of life. He did not eat meat and drink wine, and did not wear black clothes’. Given the obvious flaws in this quotation and the availability of no contemporaneous accounts one must look elsewhere for any evidence to the contrary. This is provided by a number of equally eminent historians, namely; Ahmed Shah Batalia, Zikre Guran wa Ibta-I-Singhan wa Mazhab-I-Eshan, Page 11), Ali-ud-Din Mufti, Ibrta Nama pp 39 and Kanihya lal, Tarikh-I-Punjab pp56, which states that ‘in spite of the fact the he belonged to a Bairagi Sect he became a disciple of Gurū Gobind Singh and, having taken pahul became a Sikh of the Gurū’. Further credible sources pointing to Banda becoming a Khālsa Sikh are provided in Banda Bahudur , Dr GS Deol, new Acedemic Publishing 1972, pp23-25. Given the Sikh origins of the original Persian text, it is unusual in repeating a claim that in the sacking of Sirhind the Sikhs ‘they destroyed all the mosques and tombs belonging to the Mussulmans.’ There are a number of accounts that point to general atrocities committed by Banda’s troops on the Muslim community and their vassals in Sirhind. However it is worthwhile to note that the Mausoleum of Ahmad Shāh (Sheikh Ahmad Mujaddid Alif Sani) the most significant of the tombs in the entire region is still standing as it did before the battle. Sikh accounts do not make any mention of any atrocities. Sikh sources do make mention of the digging up of a grave of Bibi Anup Kaur who, at the threat of being kidnapped by Sher Mohammed Khan, had committed suicide. The Sikhs dug out her body and cremated it . Whether these attrocities were committed or not remians unclear, however the impact of the Sikhs striking the heart of Moghul Punjāb must have been quite conspicuous. The effect was so dramatic that it may have contributed to the increase in Sikh numbers amongst Hindu and Muslim Punjābis. A conteporary Persian account notes that ‘The authority of that deluded sect [of the Sikhs] extended to such an extent that many that many Hindus and Muhammadans, finding no alternative to obedience and submission adopted their faith and rituals. And their chief [banda Singh] captivated the hearts of all towards his inclinations, and, whether a Hindu or a Muhammadan whosoever came in contact with him, he [banda Singh] addressed him by the title of Singh. Accordingly Dindar Khan, a powerful ruler of the neighbourhood, was named Dindar Singh, and Mir Nasir-ud-Din, the news-writer of Sirhind, became Mir Nasir Singh. In the same way, a large number of Muhammadans abandoned Islam and followed the misguided path [of Sikhism], and took solemn oaths and firm pledges to stand by him.’

I have seen the two hand salute being carried out by Sikh soldiers during a parade - again where the Guru Granth Sahib was walked by. Obvioulsy this is not a salute that is used for officers and other soldiers. I am not certain what the origins are and whether other groups use a similar salute for their scriptures etc?

that isnt a nazi salute - its with two hands in the air not one

What is the indian obsession with really tacky gaudy ceramic tiles! It seems tahtthe whole of punjab is covering itself in these things! Anyway, can someon explain why all nanksar pictures of Guru Nanak only ever show him with one hand - the other is always obscured or hidden - this is deliverate but I dont understand why they do it aman

i thought that the Neeldharis were a sect within a sect (sorry about using the word "sect") and that they originated from within the Namdhari panth ? aman

I dont know too much about them. They are fairly distinctive wearing Kamarkasa and a scarf/patka style turban - both in a very distinctive blue colour. the website gives some explanantion about that. There are a few families in west london that I have seen, but the largets number (that I have come across) have been in South East Asia - Thailand, Malaysia and Singpoare. IN SG they are known as blue Belters and they are mainly tailors. Their main baba (Harnam Singh) deid about 20 odd years ago and his body was not cremated but remains in some preserved state in the basement of a gurdwara in India. Aftre his death the sect split into three branches. With one of the branches waiting for the resurrection of Harnam Singh (presumebly that is why they havent cremated the body). In terms of beliefs etc I understand that they are very similar to the Namdharis Sikhs in that regard but have some special revenrece for Hemkunt and teh Guru Gobind Singh association. aman

I dont think that he has written anything (not that I can think of). I spoke to him a few years ago about this picture (for some reason) and his insight into the england of the 30s and 40s was really interesting. In fact I promised to fllow up by visitng a few of the descendants of the other characters in this picture - I did a few interviews but not much more. We (UKPHA) hopes to do an oral history project in the UK - this needs an injection of time in order that we can get the money to conduct the interviews and film them etc Aman

THe man fifth back in from the right on the bottom row of men is the then Pardhan of Shepherds Bush Gurdwara. He is holdidng a young boy (looks like a girl with long hair). That young kid is Indarjeet Singh - he of Sikh Messenger, Thought for the Day etc. The Central figure is Mohan Singh. Aman

Freed, these images are great. Can you also list the publication that you got them from (I am assuming that these arescans from books) Aman

During this century the gurus have been portrayed by Indian artists using the ideal of the European. Most paintings depict the Gurus as White blokes weatring turbans. This has spread into the depiction of Maharajahs (Ranjti Singh in particular) and some of the quite ridiculous depictions of characters like the Rangharia Sardar (there is anpother thread on that somewhere). We have become so conditioned to that, that when any alterntive is offered it is referred to as ugly. I have been meaning to get Dr Daljeets book asnd read her rationale for thsi picture. obviously there needs to be rigorous look at this image amandeep