Singh47

Then where are these testimonies of non-Muslims you speak of? God know how many times I have repeatedly asked you over and over. But till date you have either dodged my question or have shown only Muslim sources. Whatever you have written about Ganda Singh or your imaginary childhood friend whose family was very close to the Gurus is just a way of brushing aside the real issue on hand and avoiding answering the real tough questions. There is a gap of nearly 400 years between your friend and his ancestors who were supposedly close to the 6th Guru. So his testimony (provided he even exists!) doesn’t really hold ground as he was neither a contemporary of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur nor have you shown me a single shred of non Muslim contemporary source proving Baba Jee killing thousands of women and children. Since you have failed to present any reliable evidence that he killed innocent women and children, I have come to the conclusion that the only reason you seem so apprehensive towards Baba Jee is because he was a Vegetarian and he spoke out against the use of Marijuana both of which you staunchly support. Is this supposed to be a joke? You think that KPS Gill is “quite close to the truth� The fact that you quote of an ‘independent source’ from KPS Gill’s website totally destroys the reliability of your argument about Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay. KPS Gill is the one who banned human rights groups from Punjab and even branded them as part of the ‘terrorist’ network because they would speak out against his beastly atrocities on the Sikh people. In other words, the only human right report he (and you!) support and quote are the ones that tow the line for KPS Gill’s official version of accounts. Not very reliable I must say. That’s almost like someone quoting from neo-Nazi websites about the Jews and still demanding everyone to take them seriously. Lalleshwari you cannot expect people to take you seriously as a ‘scholar’ when you quote such flimsy and dubious sources. What next? Are you going to start quoting Osama Bin Laden or Hitler when backing up your views about the Jews? ----- Now coming to Sarbloh Granth. Your ground shaking detective work doesn’t really prove a thing. All it proves is that my quote is not on Page 255 of the Budha Dal version of Sarbloh Granth. My page number was based on older hand written versions which don’t necessarily follow the new official sequence of page numbers of Budha Dal’s published Sarbloh Granth which has been in print since the year 2000. I just didn’t know which Page number this Shabad belonged to in the new official Budha Dal version of Sarbloh Granth. As for you trying to portray me as a “Ram Raiya†because I supposedly changed around the words makes me shake my head and crack a smile and wonder if you are just pretending to be this delusional? Please look at the following picture of the Shabd I quoted in English: As everyone can see, I did NOT change around, deduct or add any word or Tukh in this Shabad. I Romanized it exactly the way it was written in the original Gurmukhi script to the best of my abilities. Now I believe Lalleshwari here does owe me an apology. Please note the second line in that Shabad “Gur updesh, sikh prat bhashn, mudra trai, kach kesh kripanung|†This tukh has been quoted by Veer Amrit Bhaji of Amrit world on the following link: http://www.amritworld.com/trai_mudra.html If you scroll down you will see it. Strangely enough, Bhai Vijaydeep Singh who now denies this Shabad even exists in Sarbloh Granth has quoted this very same line from that Shabad in the past. Vijaydeep Singh Jee, please check out the following link: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...sc&start=15 Where you wrote the following: So clearly, as we can all see, two very distinguished members of Sikhawareness.com Bhai Amrit Bhaji and Bhai Vijaydeep Singh jee have quoted from this Shabad which only proves this Shabad does infact exist. Now that we know for certain that this Shabd does exist, your Zamir should awaken, and never even think of eating Maas.

I agree with Amrit Pal Singh Bhaji 100% on what he wrote on that site. But after reading some of the replies by the 3ho Singhs, I dont think they are going to change their views on this. So its really no use debating with them on this. Hopefully Guru Jee will show the new generation of 3ho Singhs/Kaurs the correct vidhi for conducting an amrit sanchaar.

I will reply to this thread tomorrow.

Bhai Vijaydeep Singh Jee, how can you be so sure it is not written in Sarbloh Granth? have you read all of Sarbloh Granth and have it memorized to be so sure it was not written in Sarbloh Granth? How can you verify that it wasn’t written in it? I have read it so that is why I present it here to prove that Sarbloh Granth does not approve of eating Maas. Tukhs just don’t appear out of thin air. That poudi comes after two other poudis in which Dasam Patsha first describes the ways of Muslim and followed by the Hindus. Then Dasam Patsha writes about the ways of the Khalsa which is the poudi I have written here.

I’m glad you asked. In Sarbloh Granth it says: Aso Khalsa khals padh prapt, nirankari shiv roop mahanung| Gur updesh, sikh prat bhashn, mudra trai, kach kesh kripanung| Ta ki rehet, surt oukat bhakat, das grahi khalsa pradanung| Saadan, sidh, sur, bhagat manund, das grahi aastak maanung| Tiagi das birodh mat saadhun, hinsaa, hankaar, alas premaanung| Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung| Das grahi, das tiagi aiso, tahai Khalsa kathat sujaanung| Aiso Khalsa, khalsa padh prapat, nirankari shiv roop mahaanung| (Sarbloh Granth, Page 255) I will create such a Khalsa who will be the possessor of the ten virtues (das gun) and will abandon all vices. Amongst the vices that will be abandoned are Kattorta (cruelty), kucheelta (dirtiness), JaRtaa (foolishness), kripnta and my Khalsa will not consume flesh (Maas Abhukhat Maanung). That is why they will be of high lineage. Meaning that flesh as food is a depraved substance to eat and is consumed by low born ones (Neech Jati). Those of high lineage i.e. Khalsa will not consume it. According to Sarbloh Granth, Dasam Guru’s hukam is “Maas Abhukhat Maanungâ€, "Daya Man Laavoh†and “Hinsa Dhurmat Tiagoâ€. Those who do not follow these Hukams of Dasam Patsha and continue to commit sin after sin because of Jeeb Rass by killing and eating God’s creatures i.e. animals, what right do such people have left to call themselves Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Jee? Hey, you wont get any argument from me here. I don’t have anything against Imam Ali. I respect him because he was a brave warrior. So I don’t see the point in mentioning Ali in all of this. I don’t care what Kshatriya codes have to say about drinking. Kshatriya codes does not equate to Khalsa Maryada. Drinking is a weakness, which destroys the body. So the truth finally comes out. The only reason you seem so angry is because Samana was a city full of Shia Sayads. So killing of Sikhs or Sunnis is perfectly fine with you, but Shia Sayyads are all off limits as they are Gods chosen people… arrant they? Do you have some serious learning disabilities I should be aware of? What part of “I want some non Muslim but contemporary sources" don’t you understand? First you quote KPS Gill’s website to justify your venomous views about Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay, and now you quote Muslim sources full of bias and over exaggeration about Sikhs to justify your hateful views about Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, are you now also going to start believing everything that Muslims have to say about Akali Phula Singh? Because Muslim historians hold the same view about him that they held about Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Again for the umpteenth time I ask my question: Please quote for me a non Muslim but contemporary source that states that Shaheed Baba Banda Singh killed thousands of Muslim women and children. And for Imam Ali's sake, dont avoid this question.

BTW, Malcome says "Banda wished to make Sikh abandon their blue dress, to refrain from drinking and eating flesh:" Are you trying to claim that Sikhs use to drink sharaab during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee? Also, eating of flesh is against Khalsa Dharm according to Sarbloh Granth which I know that you beleive was written by Dasam Patshah. So who is right, Sarbloh Granth or Malcome?

As usual you have just dodged my question. I will repeat my question: “please quote for me where he(Malcome) wrote that Shaheed Baba Banda Singh killed thousands of Muslim women and children.†I ask this because you falsely accused Baba Jee by saying the following: Now prove your lie with some real hard facts. And this time don’t dodge my question.

Was he a contemporary of Baba Banda Singh? And if he was, please quote for me where he wrote that Shaheed Baba Banda Singh killed Muslim women and children.

Please stop dodging my requests. What part of "I want some non Muslim but contemporary sources" dont you understand?

I agree with SAdmins Jee. Sikhs need to better themselves before thinking about the creation of a political or geographical entity. Punjabis of the 80s and the Punjabis of today are very different people. Values seem to have changed and the people seem to have changed for the worse. Right now parchaar is needed more than anything. All other goals are secondary compared to that.

Duh…I’m not the one here trying to prove anything. For the Sikhs, Baba Jee is a Hero and will remain a hero. It is you who is trying to destroy his image like you tried doing with Baba Jarnail Singh Jee. You are the one trying to claim he was a mass murderer. So the burden of proof is on you not me.

Bhai Akaali Jee, only contemporary Islamic sources claim that which are subject to bias against Sikhs. I want Lalleshwari to show me a non Islamic, yet contemporary source saying he killed innocent women and children. As for Sikh Granths claiming he was a rebel. The only one is Panth Parkash of Bhangoo. This granth was written nearly a hundred years after those events took place! There are bound to be some errors in such accounts. This granth even claims that Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Jee was a heretic who got was he deserved. It also claims that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee would take Marijuana first thing in the morning even before taking an Ishan and doing his Nitnem. We should use our critical thinking mechanism before blindly believing in everything written in books.

So what? You were a Catholic and are now are a self professed ‘Nirmala’ who has very strong leanings to towards Shia Islam. Mod's Note: =EDITED= 'Personal Attacks are not welcomed in this forum' I don’t want to get into the meat debate, but most Amritdharis outthere do believe in Vagetarianism as principle of Gurmat. Prove it using non-Islamic but contemporary sources. Mod's Note: =EDITED= 'Personal Attacks are not welcomed in this forum'

First Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay and now Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. First of all, contemporary Muslim accounts should always be taken with a pinch of salt because they tend to over exaggerate events to make themselves look like victims while trying to make Baba Jee as a villain, same thing was done to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay in the 80s. History should be read with a sense of balance and not with a pre determined POV. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was not an enemy of Muslims. In fact, thousands of Muslims are said to have enlisted in his army who had full freedom to practice their faith, some say even as many as 10,000 Muslims fought in Baba Banda Singh’s army. If he had killed so many Muslims as contemporary Islamic accounts seem to claim then why were thousands of Muslims fighting in his army? Baba Jee was a Jyot Vigaasi Singh Soorma and the way he became a Shaheed is proof of it.

It is good to see that our friend Lalleshwari here is quoting his info from a website created and funded by KPS Gill who exterminated the Sikhs. It is no surprise to me though! As like minded people (KP Gill, Lalleshwari) seem to always think alike.

N30 Singh, don’t listen to Lalleshwari. He's just blowing a lot of hot air out of his fat rear end. Sant Jarnail Singh Jee was a Puran Sant Mahpursh. They did not torture any innocent person. This is all propaganda by the Congress-Arya Samaj controlled Indian media.

That doesn't really make sense. Just because we did not posses something 300 years ago does not neccessarily mean we will not posses it in the future. During Guru Gobind Singh Jee's period we did not have Raj because Guru Gobind SIngh Jee did not fight for one. A few years later Sikhs under the command of Baba Banda SIngh Bahadur did establish an independent nationhood, though it was short lived. Then again during the misl period Sikhs established themselves as masters of Punjab which was the forerunner of the Sikh state during Maharaja Ranjit Singh period. Sikhs lost their Raj after the Anglo-Sikh wars. But we had our chance during 1940's when a Sikh state was being offered, but unfortunately Sikh leadership was not up to the task and declined thinking their rights would be protected by the Congress party. Personally I do not like the name “Khalistanâ€. It sounds too Islamic. That is why I chose the third option “No. I think Punjab should still be known as Punjab†even though I believe in a Sikh state. But right now Sikh parchar is needed more than a separate Sikh state. We have over 20 million Sikhs worldwide, but barely a million follow Sikh way of life. Go to Punjab and you will hardly Sikh youth in Khalsa sroop. Everyone is Mona or trim their beards and most of the time when you see Sikh youths in full Sikh sroop you find out from further enquiry that they are either professional kirtanis or granthis. So right now Parchar is needed more than any geographical or political entity IMHO.

Guru Gobind SIngh Jee fought for Dharm, righteousness, human rights. Baba Banda Singh onwards Sikhs fought for land so they can also practice Dharm, righteousness prevailed, human rights was protected, it was a sort of Ram Rajya. Under the lands ruled by Sikhs cow slaughter was illegal, honour of women were safe, forcible religious conversions was forbidden, maybe that is why Sikhs constituted less than 10% of the population in the lands they ruled majority of which was Muslim and Hindu. Sikhs during the partition needed a separate nation state simply because the Congress was not trustworthy to keep their word made to the Sikhs. If a Sikh nation state were to have been created in 1947 then the following would not have happened: -Punjabi language would not have been denied it’s due status. It would have been the national language of east Punjab (Punjab, Haryana, Himachal, Chandigarh). -Punjab’s river waters would not have been stolen away from Punjab and given to other states for free. -Although Bhakra Dam is Punjabi with Punjabi water, but all the electricity it produces goes to Delhi and not Punjab. Further Delhi gets that electricity for free while Punjab has to BUY its fossil fuel to produce it's electricity. This also causes a lot of pollution. -The theft of Punjabi land which was given for free to Haryana and Himachal Pardesh even though large parts of Haryana and practically all of Himachal Pardesh is Punjabi speaking. -Punjab is the only state in India that has to share a capital i.e. Chandigarh with another state(Haryana). Furthermore, Chandigarh doesn’t belong to Punjab or Haryana, it is a union territory that belongs to the center. So Punjab doesn’t even have a capital it can call it’s own! And I'm not even going to mention the horrors of 78-84 onwards which are comparable to some South American dictatorship because the above given reasons are good enough reason for why we should have had a nation state way back in 1947.

Khalistan will not just be the few Zilas we have left. For it to be called Khalistan it will have to include atleast Haryana, Himachal Pardesh, Chandigarh because these areas rightfully belong in Punjab.

Sikh missionary college offers all of this in one package except for part 'e'. I think they could and should work on that a little more.

Lalleshwari does present some good points. Some Buddhists do seem to worship Amitabh like a God like figure. But even Amitabh was an actual historic figure who lived in Gandhara which many say is the birth place of Mahayana Buddhism. But later innovations and deviations from the original path as shown by the historic Buddha is not my concern here. Point is Buddhism as shown by Shakyamuni Buddha does not believe in Brahman like Vedanta does. So I still dont understand how a Buddhist temple can be a DharamShala of Vahiguroo.

Bhai Mehtab Singh Jee, it is a very big misconception that Buddhism is a theistic religion. I know and realize that Buddha is a very respected figure in the world. I respect him too. But the fact remains that the Dhamma like Jainism is a Naastic faith belief. Although they believe in the existence of Devtas and Rakshasas(demons) but they do not believe in Brahman or Vaheguru, so to call a Buddhist temple a "Dharamshala of Vahiguroo" is a HUGE blunder. In fact Buddhism even denies that the universe was created by God. Nor do they believe in the existence of the "self". For more info please visit the following sites: http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/buddhism.html http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/buddhism_atheism.html N30 Singh, I think that you should do little bit more reading on Buddhism before commenting. I suggest you should read some puraatan Nirmala Sikh literature to begin with. According to them Buddhism was started because long ago when the Demons (Rakshas) defeated the Devas, the Devas ran to Vishnu for help. In order to help them, Vishnu incarnated as Goutam Sidhart (Buddha) and started a Naastic faith called Buddh Dharm in order to weaken the Demons. I don’t know if this story is true or not but this is what puraatan Sikh Nirmala literature has to say about Buddhism.

Does anyone who is a Bedi automatically become a direct descendent of Guru Nanak Dev Jee? I am very much sure that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was not the originator of the Bedis. There were other Bedis during the time of Guru Nanak Dev Jee and I suspect that most Bedis today are descendents of other Bedis who lived during Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s period. It seems that every Bedi I have come across claims descent from Guru Nanak Dev Jee as if Guru Jee was the only Bedi of his time and the creator of the Bedi Vansh. That would mean that Lakhs of Bedis out there all of whom claim to be direct descendents of Guru Nanak Dev Jee is a little to far fetched for me to believe. I am certain that there are many Bedis out there who are genuinely biological descendents of Guru Nanak Dev Jee but not all them.

Vahiguroo? you do realize that Buddhism is an atheistic religion... so it is anything but a "dharamsala of Vehiguroo".

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