DSG

I think thats why the SIkhs need one Rehat Maryada and all should follow. We seem to be having loads of different sects , and each one thinks they are the only way forward and right . I think theres more to it than that . Theres probably many many parcharaks who dont agree with each other, that doesnt give them the right to kill someone. If a parcharak like Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhandrian wala is doing gurbani parchar in villages , educating the Sangat about Gurbani and the false babbeh , doing Amrit Sanchar etc.. ( Is this too damaging for an individual that the only way to shut him up is to kill him ? ) As in one of his interviews on TV , he openly states that if anyone can prove that he said anything against the Taksal then he will give up what he is doing. His comment was to Dumma who first made an un called for comment about him doing parchar and amrit sanchar. Bhai Ranjit SIngh commented on Dummas comment , and words were exchanged back and forth. There is a bigger agenda going on in the background , and I think like in the past it will be covered up , and the truth will not come out due to the dirty politics being played in Punjab. ( Sadly Just another atrocity to add to many on the list ) We as in all regardless of the COuntry of origin , should apply utmost pressure to know the truth. Educate all Sikhs and non-sikhs . Dumma postponed a press conference Why? what has he to hide ? http://sikhsiyasat.net/2016/05/21/attack-dhadrianwale-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma-postpones-press-conference/

Guest Sukhdev , a suggestion ( you may have been down this route already ...but here goes anyway) Why not ask the sangat if they have any spare Turbans not being used who can donate for the turban days .

I think the other question is do we have faith in the Punjab Police and Indian Judicial system to deliver a full and thorough investigation , judging from the past activities and incidents, I have my doubts ? Will the truth actually come out or will it be labelled as a feud against 2 parcharaks ? ( Which personally I find very hard to believe , that it would resort to violence and killings ) As Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrian wala states that the route to this evil incident should be fully exposed.

Further info http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/attack-on-dhadrianwale-four-held-fb-war-led-to-murder-bid-2808025/

Come on bro a bit harsh isnt it. Have you been to one of his diwaans ? From my understanding is that Dhumma is basically taken charge from Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala , and is Dhumma living up to this , doing what Sant Ji was doing or is he looking after his own best interests ? Ranjit Singh Dhadrian wala is doing a great job to wake up the kaum. In his diwaans thousands attend so he must be doing something right. Motivates the sangat gives them a boost. No ones perfect , but we should be looking at his qualities , a bit of controversy we all like including me :):) , and can read for hours and hours about it , but when it comes down to actually listening to the essence of his diwaans ,i.e. follow Gurus hukam, read Gurbani become better humans, do seva etc... we tend to miss that bit and go into the controversy section. Also in his diwaans he openly says that if he talks wrongly or against anybody without any proof / that if he is wrong then ..the sangat can tell him I can only vouch from my own person experiences that he is a great seva dar for the panth , his diwaans with the blessing of the Sangat actually motivates you gives you a charge up. what do you mean by its an internal issue this ?

Very true , theres some footage on youtube from the CCTV cameras of some of the suspects ( difficult to make out not very clear though)

Very bad indeed. May waheguru bless his soul. so sad ITs hard to believe source :- http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/sikh-preacher-dhadrianwale-escapes-murderous-attack/238329.html That 15 assailants baptised Sikhs were involved ............... truely something not right

I agree the land isn't theirs and they have the right to claim it back. But the aftermath is what needs to be clearly defined by the courts and support of the Polce.If Pakistan is similar to India in terms of law and order ( assuming it is) then it will be very difficult to push the encroachers out and get back the land without some type of violence . As will the Police support the owners 100% or is it that , they give them the rghts to get back their land and the rest is up to them. We dont know the mentality of these people , may attack innocent people for no reason , shunned out of society , unprovoked attacks . I think its a tricky one , taking back whats yours without being the victim. I think shoplifting is different , thats about taking goods/items rather than land which is more static of nature.

Wouldnt anyone be angry , if they were told the land isnt theres and had to be returned back to the owners. Now if they are using the land for trading and their livelihood. I think its clever tactics by the Courts / government , in the sense how to get rid of a minority by giving them back their land , knowing very well the tension it will cause, its like giving them the cake but eating it yourself. Surely they should have got the owners of the land and encroachers to come to an agreement such as staying where they are but paying minimal rent or relocating them elsewhere.

I was flicking through the TV channels as you do, yesterday and come across Punjab Radio, who were discussing about the Smethwick Gurudawara fight. Apparently the guy who was talking "didn't catch his name" informed charity commission that due to personal conflicts and 2 parties dragging each other to courts, make sure that no Gurudawara funds are used to pay Solicitor fees otherwise charity commission will close the Gurudawara ( Now How will the normal joe bloggs know if money from the gurudawara will be used for this ?) Some points of thought from the discussion :- 1. Amrit should not to be taken lightly. Practice first , get the love from inside your soul , telling you, nows the time to partake in the Amrit ceremony. This way you'll respect Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and get involved in silly feuds. 2. The PANTH wants quality not quantity. The quality being , having respect for Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj , educated , having the right credentials to fulfill the duties in a Gurudawara. 3. The people who want to volunteer in the running of the Gurudawara need to be fully vetted , similar to when applying for a job. Then the question is who vet's them ? That was the basic crux of the discussion. Sincerely hope he is , and makes some changes. But I am hearing from various people , that the current selection process is void , due to a fair election not taking place giving both parties an opportunity and the other party have informed charity commission. So I see round 2 of punch ups coming up soon on Sky box office .( anybody want any tickets let me know.. sorry bad humour ) Very true Samurai , hopefully with Wahegurus Kirpa they feel shame in what they have done and realise the damage they have done and are doing to the Panth. I also think alot of sangat want to help keeping a low profile , just do their seva (in and out and thats it). But when they see this type of thing happening , they are discouraged. I also think if we know someone good in the PANTH and have some good qualities where the sangat ( young and old) can benefit .We should encourage them to come forward , as i'm sure theres alot of diamonds in the PANTH , but just need that little push. This way when we go to the Gurudawara we actually take something away which cleanses our soul. A great video by Basics of Sikhi pasted below discusses about "How Gurudawaras are run"

I think the biggest problem is "us". When things like this happen we should be knocking on the door of the pradhaan and committee members , bombarding them with letters, petitions demanding an answer from them,, putting them on the spot. If they know the sangat will be on their backs if things like this happen , i'm sure they'll think twice.

A very humble and great, GurSikh role model . A true sevadar , doing seva from his heart. He also runs Gurmat and kirtan classes for kids.

There are alot of organisations that keep on knocking on the door of the indian judicial system to punish the culprits . Even though delay tactics are being played . If you think about it , the truth is out there re 1984 , with documented evidence , now if the government openly says , lets give SIkhs justice , you'll see a lot of leaders at the time being punished , and it will open a can of worms . So there stance is to delay , divert their attention as to avoid any punishment. In World WAR I &II the perpetrators who are now in their 80's and 90's have been punished for their war crimes ( its never too late , but the fight must continue) As Phoolka mentioned , he will keep dragging the criminals to court regardless of the outcome , keep pounding them with case after case. This way people get educated about the truth , the more they are aware the more impact it will have to seek justice. The 2020 referendum in India , will hopefully get UN to apply pressure on India as long as they get 5 million signatures from Punjab. The chance and opportunity is still their as India being part of the UN they have to oblige.( Yes I agree Politics is very dirty , nowadays its more about money and Economy) The signatures will have to come from Punjab Sangat , 5 million of them in order for the UN to intervene. I agree up to a point we have no leaders , the current ones are no leaders at all, and it is scarey .Hypothetically speaking we get what we want , are we ready to run our own sovereign country ? ( Theres nothing really concrete regarding the policies , leaders, roles etc.. that are being discussed. May be someone is working on it , or even on the last minute as per our tradition:):) I think the current leaders, organisations need to discuss these matters make it more open and visible to the public regardless of their back ground. But the fear I think in India is if someone stands up , a) will they be allowed. b) will they be put down , false allegations made against them c) threatened hence no one stands up due to concerns over their well being and safety. The Sikh religion is complete , and has the full credentials of leading any nation. Dhan Dhan Guru nanak dev jis mission of earning an honest living , sharing what you earn with others, naam japna , compassion , seva .. theres nothing wrong with that . Its "us" people who are at fault and dont want to see a change and are too deeply involved in our own personal , selfish agendas.

I think you are failing to understand the point , what about all the other points are they propaganda too. Come on Kd Singh parji wake up , dont deny theres a need for justice in India , especially for Sikhs.

I agree so much corruption , so many people from all backgrounds suffering, but the question is what is being done to help them ? Do we just keep a low profile ( let it be , let it be ,let it be ... sorry burst out into a song their mate LOL) , and carry on with our normal daily chores or do we "try" and make a change in whatever way shape or form , whether we reside in India or outside . I also think that organisations like Basics of Sikhi , RajoanaTV need to be highlighted more as I think they are doing a fantastic job ..... have a massive education program throughout the world , as sikhi is a Universal religion . You never know with wahegurus kirpa we may find thee true leader and unite us all.

could well be , to be honest dont know how accurate it is or the resources they used ( if you feel you have vlaid figures and facts please feel free to email them or correct them , i'm sure they will change it ), but what they are trying to portray is that , in particular SIKHS only made 2% of the Indian population but 80% of the Sikhs from the 2% population gave up their lives. But regardless of the figures the point is that SIKHS being minority in India as well as other minorities , see India as their country so why are they not getting justice even today .

Class man true class ......... cracked me up :) :)

Gunning down is that last resort and not the way forward until all avenues have been exhausted .We have to be more smarter , educating the people in the pends . changing their mindset , telling them the truth about what is happening to the Sikhs , so that in the future they make the right selection. I assume you are from India , and your mindset regarding seeking for injustices scares me . I agree , that the current so called leaders "badal &co" are corrupt and will be a task to oust them out of power. But it shouldnt stop us from trying regardless of where one resides. Why the negative attitude and the mindset of let it be, nothing will happen. Now the question is why nothing will happen ? How can we change this ? Why is nobody listening to the people who reside in Punjab ? Why when they stand up they are put down ? How can this change ? ........................ In my opinion people will make this change , with the right mindset . People need to be told the truth about the atrocities and injustices happening to the Sikhs and minorities. Ekta , regardless of where one is , is the key. Why wouldnt a person want to see a change , have the government oppressed them so up by feeding them lies , that their mindset is , "let it be" we are happy as we are ... but are they really ? IS that so , wasnt aware of that . I see int he UK many Sikh Ethos faith schools open to all , ( birmingham , wolverhampton, redbridge, southall) . On one side in Punjab they want to abolish Punjabi , here in UK the government is encouraging Sikh Ethos faith schools . Justice is about denying an individual his/her rights. One example here in UK , a teenager who had down syndrome was living in a COuncil flat , he had is independence. All of a sudden the Council told him he had to give up is flat , his parents were not happen set up a petition online where thousands signed. His case was taken into parliament and discussed the outcome was he remained in his flat and independent. In Punjab has it come the norm , that making a change for the betterment of an indivdual / community is non existence . You cannot fight for your rights , because you will be put down by the Police so its easier to stay quiet and let it be ( let it be ... thats a song isnt it :) :) If the outsiders in your opinion are doing more harm than good by holding a referendum , so that Sikhs in Punjab and minorities can have better lives I know which side i would back. I agree , it will be tough seeking the right leader(s) , setting the plan as how to run Punjab . Who to trust etc.. but if the outsome form the referendum is not our own state but a shake up of the current leaders , injustices against SIkhs and minorities sought , a change for the better then its not a bad thing is it ? Below was taken from Basics of Sikhi site , leaflet they produced which i think a lot of us ( including me) wasnt aware about Pre-1947 British Indian Raj • 1849 British Raj annexes huge Sikh Kingdom. • 1900s Sikhs fight bravely for Indian independence • Sikhs (2% Indian population) give 80% of sacrifices in freedom struggle • M.Gandhi and Nehru promise Sikh state within Federal India • Punjab split ½ India ½ Pak • 60% of Sikhs become refugees • 14m people displaced • 1m Sikhs died 1947-50 Independent India’s New Constitution • Sikhs are classed as Hindus • Punjabi is not Punjab’s first language • 75% of water & 70% of revenue sent to other states • Sikhs seen as Hindu sect that needs suppression and re-assimilation • PM Nehru says Sikhs ‘missed the boat’ • Sikhs feel betrayed and refuse to sign constitution. 1950-66 Punjabi Suba Movement • Masses of Sikhs agitate peacefully for socio-political rights • 26,000 Sikhs arrested in 1960 • Govt respond with violence • 1966 Govt create Punjabi-language State, but ⅓ of Punjab’s original size • Govt deny Punjab its own capital or control over economic policies. 1966-84 Anandpur Resolution - Dharam Yudh Morcha • 1971 250k+ Sikhs demonstrate for reasonable socioeconomic demands of Anandpur Resolution • Govt and Police turn more violent and hostile • Propaganda defames Sikhs as extremists and separatists • 1975 Sikhs hailed as ‘saving democracy’ through massive demonstrations against Indira Gandhi’s dissolving of parliament • Indira develops grudge against Sikhs • 1978 Anti-Sikh group kills 13 Sikhs whilst Police stand by • Police brutality escalates • 1982 Sikhs launch Dharam Yudh Morcha to implement Anandpur Resolution • This mass movement with several leaders is portrayed by Govt as solely lead by St. Bhindranwale, who is also demonised as an extremist separatist

Is it not a duty of a sikh to stand up for the little guy , to stand up for injustices. We / each individual should be seeking the truth and trying to get justice for the thousands of innocent victims and not merely give up and brush it under the carpet simply because of the economy . If India's economy is booming so much , how much is pumped into Punjab ? what is a definition of a Sikh ? Its votes are based on corruption , feeding the less fortunate money and booze to get a vote . Why not . IF the people are not getting justice from the leaders of the state , they should be able to go somewhere else i.e. central government who can then do a fully fledge investigation and punish the corrupt leaders .. why not ?

more upset that they are gonna have to give back their mercedes to the dealer. .... This killed me man :) : ) couldnt get off the floor for 5 mins LOL Apparently theres more to it than that ....... ( I should have asked my Dad , he got involved in it to sort it out , but they have their own agenda) Basically the crux of it is , 2 parties fighting over the control of the Gurudwara , Charity commission got involved and told them if they dont come to a mutual agreement then hold an election where the sangat will choose. My Dad went down and saw both parties and told them to select members from both parties , one side agreed but the other didnt . Then apparently the present party selected their own members and appointed the young pradhaan , without actually holding an election ..........I suspect the fight was because of that , Only had one dealing with the young pradhann , Dont really know much about him , hopefully he can make a difference. The thing I dont understand is , what will they gain fighting over the Gurudawara control ..... other than a new mercedes LOL

They may be names a Sikh party but they are not SIkh , you may be born into a SIkh family but doesnt necessarily make you a Sikh. Why not then the Central government intervene and stop the shooting done by the party you mentioned ? Dont tell me that you want the answer to be painkillers Sorry dont understand what you mean , please share your thoughts This is something you should know better. Sorry again dont understand what you mean , please share your thoughts.

Its better to live in a dream , than not living at all. Its not just based on signatures , signatures are there for an open dialogue , dialogue to explain the atrocities that are happening in Punjab so the UN can intervene . Over 30 years since 1984 , no justice , killings of innocent sikhs , no justice , recent sarbat khalsa ..no justice many many more cases. This isnt the first resort , if communities are not being fairly treated , why not ? Why not they stand up and air their concerns , who will listen to them ? In the past and now the sikhs have been fighting is justice, fairly treated , jobs , trades and the referendum is a way putting pressure on the government to act. It is not just only for sikhs it is for those minorities or communities that no one cares about or listens to. Wouldnt you want the average person the right to visit any country in the world . Why is this not allowed in India ? Why do they seek to go to another country , simply because they dont see a future in Punjab ( I dont blame them ).

This is the whole point , why cannot an individual be charged up , rally , object stand up to in justices ... without being shot . Wheres the freedom of speech ? Let me ask you a question , why do you think people turn to drugs and drink ? True again let me ask you a question , why dont they go to Gurudawaras ?

thanks samurai ,i've seen it on youtube ..... makes my blood boil .. such idiots i saw their facebook apparently a new young pardhaan was appointed https://www.facebook.com/GNGSmethwick/