shaheediyan

Through Gurbani, friendships of our Gurus, Muslim Bhagat Bani, ithihaas such as Banda Bahadur not allowing Masjids to be destroyed, actions of Khalsai re mosques in India etc... do you really not think Sikhi teaches tolerance of Islam to say the least? Do you think you accord with this? And I am not talking about being a 'paying' dhimmi. Believe it or not, my tolerance and lack of insulting Islam comes from my Sikhi (gurbani), not some naive, euphoric world view. If Islam and the prophet Muhammed were evil, bhagat bani would not have been included in Gurbani and the numerous references to Islamic names of God would not have been so beautifully portrayed either. Gurbani talks about Islam and Snaatn dharm in the same light, hundreds of times, saying Khudda and Ram are one, the Mandhir and Masjid is the same, this is what Mahapursh teach too, that the dharams are not bad, just that they have lost their light over time (in the mainstream part). Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji was known to give copies of the quran sharif (and its arth) to his Muslim followers. Again, I would suggest looking into the reason why Sevapanthis recited the Ghazali’s Keemiya-i-sa’adat. Of course horrendous acts have been commited in the name of Islam, but so have some of the most amazing - in terms of propogation of science, arts, music and spirituality.

Veer, that source seems like a typical Christian American reaction to the ever growing Sufi popularity in the US (and worldwide for that matter). If I saw anything but a totally negative and one sided demonisation of Sufism (Islam), I may have taken it just a little more seriously. Baba Farid Ji was of the same Chisti order your American article demonises. There are said to be tens of millions of followers of Baba Farids in China, Africa, Arabia, Pakistan and not to mention India. This is the danger when we try and interpret worldy hate, propoganda, history, interpretation and personal bias in confliction with our own faith, of which Baba Farid Ji Maharaj is an integral part. Rather than reading one sided reactionery propoganda on Sufis, I would highly recommend reading Sufi readings, just as our very own Seva Panthi Sampryada used to do.

Is Parmatma Nirgun and Sargun both?

Well, having studied and taught Indian Classical Musical history, including the Islamic development of Raags and timelines, I beg to differ. Islam may have spread by the sword by 'some' rulers, but before they were even heard of, Sufi Mystics had already travelled, integrated and achieved massive followings in the sub-continent, there influence being so far reaching it is found in some of the earlierst medieval raag granths. I don't expect you to take this on board judging by your one sided 2 minute Sufi research, so again, I choose to digress.

Kalyug, I know you like doing research. Look up Sufism, especially the oldest scripts, you will be very surprised how long it has been around. Also, Sufism is not some minority sect, many Muslims in India are of Sufi following, there are also large Sufi populations in North Africa, China, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Bangladesh and Indonesia, not to mention the biggest, in India (where Islam was spread via Sufism). They believe in Islam, Quran Sharif and Prophet Mohammed. It would be good if you directed your understaning/questions towards them and shared your answers with us here (there are Sufi forums). All those Muslims that helped/befriended the Gurus and remained Muslims, it would naive to think that they rejected the Prophet, if you reject the Prophet, then there is no Islam left, its more a matter of understanding their interpretation. If you have read the Quran (not just selective bits) you will see there appear to be contradicitons, this is where different Muslim groups differ, taking different meanings. All Sufi groups trace their parampara back to the Prophet, and spiritual practices like dhikr (simran) and the intrinsic teachings of fanā and baqā, are clearly historically linked back to Mohammed Sahib, even though they have abandoned on th large part by Wahhabi Sunnism - this in itself is something to think about, if as you imply Wahhabis represent the strict and complete Islam, why have they abandoned historical practices. I myself have tried to introduce some Sunnis I know to these practices, but they have politely declined to accept them. These massive divergunces which have occured are real and something to consider. If Islam was some evil dharm, then all those that believe it would be evil, we clearly know that is not the case. The notion of evil Islam and good Muslims is a contradiction in terms.

Sounds similar to how aboriginal communities have been destroyed worldwide by Europeans.

Actually, intellectuals make some of the best warriors, and vice versa. Hindustan does not have a monopoly on reasons and philosophies, if it did, 10 women wouldn't still be burnt every hour, nor would Dalits still be treated worse than animals or Indian have highest female infantcide rate in the world. The above has nothing to do with Islam, and is prevailent in our very own community along with a whole generation of youth who are drug addicts.

Fascinating, I now recall Dharmendra playing Jamal-ud-Din in the film Razia Sultan.

Anyone heard of these people before...

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji finally won over Lachman Das>Madho Das and gave him khande battai da amrit and named him Gurbakhs Singh... Banda Bahadur was told the stories of the Guru's sacrifices and the magnificent (and heart rendering) shaheediyan of his parvaar. Banda Bahadur wept. He looked at his Gur-Pita and begged... "please... give me permission to annihilate your enemies/wrong doers". Guru Ji smiled, he gave Banda the source of power, the very Khanda with which the nectar of immortality was prepared. Banda grabbed the Khanda with the most intense passion and determination. As soon as this happened, some Singhs sitting at Gurus charan leapt up like Lions and snatched the Khanda away from Banda. Banda, shocked at this action, looked at his Guru in dismay. Guru Ji smiled and laughed. They stood up and said 'Aj merai Khalsai nu apna haq pachhan na a-te lehna aagya'. Today, my Khalsa has learned to recognise and TAKE what is theirs (rights). So long as Banda Bahadur recognised the Khalsas rights, he would be allowed to serve them.

And before anyone comes out with the PC bakwas, consider this, the notion of PC should be used in context. If we look at my posts on this forum, considering the environment - and the common/average opinion, it is in fact me, that is the least 'PC'.

If you read my posts you will see that I am somewhere in the middle, I always have been. The reason you hear me banging on so much is because most people here are happy to totally stereotype 1 billion people, I have known, know and always will know that that is total and utter ********. The minority is far from insignificant, it is a huge threat and danger, more so to the lives of the decent majority, than to any of us, as its the good people that get stereotyped, disciminated against and killed in countless encounters (collat damage). I totally oppose and detest fanatics, including those monkeys who hang around High Streets pushing their views forcefully on others (Christian or Muslim). We don't need to help the fanatics to grow by sending fresh bloof their way by adding to the 'hate' for the entire population. If a good Muslim were to read the large part of Muslim posts on this forum, how much love do you think he would have or Sikhs? All we do is play into the small (but clever/devious) fanatical minorities hands, by focusing our hate on the innocents, and nicely pushing them into the laps of those that seem like they care. The Niti to use would be to engage intelligently/respectfully i.e. not demonise their faith, prophet, population etc, but at the same time to make it clear that fanaticism will not be tolerated, and get them to take this stance too. in fact there are now emerging some strong vocal groups who are unapologetically speaking out against terrorism/fanaticism. We should encourage and support these groups.

"So you are fine with people being compelled to convert to Islam because they should just leave the country if they don't want to be the dhimmis of their Muslim masters?" No, I am not fine with Muslims who compell to convert, far from it actually, but the fact of the matter is that its a Muslim country, and we can't do jack about it. I totally understand about the crap scenario these poor people were in, but there is always a choice, if there was a choice for our ancestors who rather accepted their babies to be cut limb by limb, then there is a choice for these poor people to. Read what I said about Christians again, I didn't say they use force, but their tactics are not dissimilar. They prey on the poor who have no food/medical aid, and offer help so long as they attend Church. No so different hey. Difference is the Muslims are up front about it.

I have personally met wives of some of the 1984 shaheeds, they have nothing positive to say about the Khalistani groups that emerged afterwards, as all of them left these widows and their fatherless children to fend for themselves, one such Bibi sells pronthe and chaa near Baba Atal in Amritsar. Some very good points made, people here are getting rich on records/albums/merchandise or think they are 'spreading the word' when what really needs to be addressed is the issue of supporting the 1984 (and post) victims. This needs to be done via financial help i.e. educating the kids, providing shelter etc as well as social i.e. Singhs in the west marrying bibiyan of Shaheed Singhs. Parchand also makes a valid point, people are responsible for themselves, if they choose to live in Pakistan and convert to make their lives easier, thats their perogative. People who really value their faith will seek other options. Majority of Sikhs have been fine living n Pakistan, yes, some idiots may cause problems but large part of populace is fine, in fact, they like Singhs, they seem them a history of their country. All the people I know that have done a long tour (yatra) in Pakistan (inc my family) have said that the locals were absolutley hospitable (and not for financial reward or tourism either, I am talking about poor locals), many of whom had fond memories of their Sikh neighbours before the partition. Educated youth also admire Sikhs, there are many Pakistani Flickr and Forums I have encountered where Singhs are seen in a positive/admirable light. Its a shame that many in the west base their views on Pakistanis (the ones that live there) on a small % of western brainwashed jobless uneducated numskull youth (on the large part, with a few educated examples). Think about how long the tiny non Muslim population has been living in Pakistan, if all Paksitani were evil, do you not think that the minorities would have disappeared half a century ago... same goes for Malaysia/Indonesia/Egypt/Iran/Turkey etc (apart from recent fanatical activity). Its sad when conversions take place, but we should not judge a whole population based on a few isolated cases. This case was very much one of personal choice, albeit grounded in hardships, its no different to what fanatical Christian missioneries are doing all over the world today, albeit in a more decietful way. Siksh who live in Pakistan really treat it as their home believe it or not, it's their country (good or bad) and they would rather stay there and fight for rights than move or convert (unless their lives are in immediate danger), and even then, they choose to seek protection in each other than leave the country (as happened recently with the NW population moving to Nanakana Sahib). We should also take not of how successful the Sikhs were in Afghanistan before the Taliban (external Saudi mob) took over.

Of course Parchand Ji, thats whole different topic. Jattboot, don't forget the 'gutt' strings from bakrai, which were plucked and bowed by the divine Gurus and Rababis! The Goat is a very versatile animal!

I think it refers to an 'Elixir'. In any case it is a metaphor for Amrit, be it honey, wine or whatever. The Shere/Babbar-Shere/Baag-Chamriis is traditionally used by Indian Sadhus to keep dangerous animals away whilst they are in deep mediation in scenic/wild environments. Funny how so many people make a fuss about 'contamination' via animal goods today, when Mahapursh until recent times performed that utmost ritual of purity (prema bhagti) whilst in direct contact with a pashus chamri/maas.

Thanks for sharing. IMHO, this painting is the same as hundreds of others painted in the Mughal style, which do not differentiate between 6th. 7th. 9th and 10th Gurus. There are actually alleged 'contemporary' paintings of our warrior Gurus in Patna and Nanded, I saw of them in Nanded 2 years ago, they are les Mughalesque (all looking the same) and bring out more individual/facial characteristics etc.

Bit of fun, the testosterone high translation is hilarious! But don't put into a false sense of security re the power of your kirpan, firstly this is a real sword, not a decorative/jathaa brand symbol. 2ndly, even this amazing swords story ends in tears when it mets a machine gun...

Bloody PC mad Indian Sikhs! They don't have a clue! All Indian Sikh affairs should be run by the highly wise and educated, not to forget spiritual, Western Youth, especially the Forum Khalsai!!

It's all relevant, it's one and the same. Dharma out of Adharma - that can take many facets.

I suppose experience of a 'chalda vaheer' lifestyle is not so bad after all! They are pretty amazing to this day, living on the bare minimum..!

The lotus has always been a sign of purity in Indian/Snaatan dharma. It was heavily popularised by the Buddist dharm. It represents the emergence of clarity out of chaos, light out of darkness and purity out of filth. Lotus plants are most commonly found in rancid ponds, where a stream source may have dried up, hence there is no oxygen supply...

Thanks for the info bro.

http://www.timeout.com/london/restaurants/features/3968/eating_out_in_london-s_places_of_worship.html Eating out in London's places of worship By Charmaine Mok. Photography Tricia de Courcy LingPosted: Tue Dec 11 2007Does a meal in a place of worship have to come with a side order of preaching? Not if you know where to dine. Time Out feasts on buffets, bangers and mash, burfi and peanut butter sandwiches on the path to enlightenment A monk at Buddhapadipa Temple prepares to eat one of his two daily meals See our pick of London's spiritual eateries Is there really such a thing as a free lunch? To eat out in London without any money, you once had to trade in something far less disposable: your beliefs. Religious institutions have long offered salvation and a sermon with soup and sandwiches, but I wanted to see whether you’re still required to swallow your pride. I found, while eating my way through London’s temples, churches and gurdwaras, that preaching is rare these days. Instead, food is used as a way of bringing people together regardless of beliefs or background. Many places of worship offer more than just food; they also provide companionship and solace without judgement or soul-searching. Many are sanctuaries, fuelled by the altruistic desire – and some pretty impressive kitchens – to help other people. Feature continues Advertisement Buddhapadipa Temple For the first in our Time Out guide to free lunches for spirits and stomachs, I visit a holy venue in which Margaret Thatcher and Elvis Presley make guest appearances – they feature on murals painted inside the ornate Buddhapadipa Temple. Just next door, meals are served in the contrastingly small and modest house where the Thai monks live and eat. On a Sunday at 10.30am the place is already humming with the crowd getting ready for the Buddhist ceremony that takes place every day. The mood is frantic, like a house preparing for a massive party. After the initial blessings, the monks settle down to eat at a table laden with a mix of vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes. From Thai noodle salads to fried fish and curries, all the food is donated and cooked by volunteers and worshippers. Soon an informal procession begins where everyone circles around the table, heaping spoonfuls of rice on to the monks’ plates. Then everyone troops outside to socialise until the monks have had their fill. It feels like a family gathering (about 400 regulars come every week), and could be awkward for a lone visitor but everyone is welcome. A gong summons monks to breakfast and lunch At about noon, the monks finish their meal and give everyone their blessings. Sangtong, one of the monks, tells me that this is to thank everyone for their kind offerings. ‘As monks, we don’t work for money and so we get support, and food, from the people,’ he explains, ‘To thank them we wish them happiness and longevity.’ As Chris Ercilla, security guard for the temple’s school, says, karma has a lot to do with the entire ritual: ‘Thai people have a strong belief that if they don’t share, especially with the temple and the monks, they’ll be born as beggars in their next life and go hungry.’ Afterwards, the monks retire to their rooms and everyone else gets stuck into the feast. Even after four monks have had their share, there’s still an impressive amount of food; it’s a buffet with all kinds of home-cooked treats. I load my plate with pieces of fish, noodles with peanut sauce and chunks of stir-fried veg. The fare is mainly Thai but there are no rules about what is served here, and the monks only eat what they are served; they aren’t allowed to request specific foods or dishes. However, Sangtong reveals that the monks often sit down to a traditional English breakfast in the mornings. Another monk, Prachyavut, recalls an excellent meal of bangers and mash he enjoyed a while ago. It’s an example of how different cultures can be brought together by the simplest of culinary pleasures. Buddhapadipa Temple, 14 Calonne Rd, SW19 5HJ (020 8946 1357) Wimbledon tube/rail then 93 bus. American Church in London For more than 20 years, the American Church in London has been providing the homeless, the needy and the lonely with food and companionship. The soup kitchen plays a vital role in the lives of hundreds of people by offering the church’s services as a sanctuary. This year – arguably the hardest time of year for anyone who doesn’t have a roof over their heads, a shoulder to cry on, or a good meal in their stomachs – they’ll be holding a big Christmas lunch for more than 250 people. ‘Eating together really breaks down barriers,’ says soup kitchen director Miranda Suit. ‘People come to eat, to relax, and interact with others. We can at least brighten their day and be there for them.’ At the soup kitchen, everyone who walks in is treated with respect and dignity, and is referred to as a ‘guest’. This is one of the greatest strengths of the church; they respect a homeless person’s right to privacy and never probe into his or her background or status. Two regular chefs cook at the kitchen, aided by a band of volunteers. The meals differ daily; on my visit, apple crumble is on the menu. Most of the food is donated by the public, or restaurants that have extra to give away. As such, the cooks often have to think on their feet each day about what to serve with the ingredients they’ve got available – very ‘Ready Steady Cook’. ‘We get quite a lot of Americans, so there’s always peanut butter in our pantries – for the perennial American favourite, peanut butter and jam sandwiches,’ says Suit. American Church in London, 79a Tottenham Court Rd, W1T 4TD (020 7580 2791) Goodge St, Warren St or Tottenham Court Rd tube. Visitors enjoying their free feast at Sri Guru Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Southall Sri Guru Singh Sabha Gurdwara I trek to Southall to dine with Dr Parminder Singh Garcha – GP by day, sewarder, or volunteer, by night – in the Sikh gurdwara’s langar (community kitchen, also known as Guru-ka-langar; literally ‘the Guru’s kitchen’). The concept of the langar is simple: no matter what your religion, colour, caste, creed or status, you are served the same vegetarian food with the same dollop of respect; and the kitchen is open all day, every day. A Sikh gurdwara without a langar is inconceivable. ‘Before, it was a revolutionary idea to have everyone eating together. In those days, if anyone of a lower class cast a shadow over your food you would have had to throw it away,’ explains Garcha. Now, there is no such caste distinction among Sikhs. At the langar, everyone can take a helping as large or as small as they like. ‘You’ll never find a Sikh who does not finish their food,’ says Garcha. ‘We don’t like to waste food. This is very important because it is from our Guru that we get everything; we are just sharing what he has given us.’ We are handed metal trays with compartments and move down the line. One man hands us roti (Indian flatbread), another spoons a helping of tarka dhal (a soup-like, vegetarian lentil dish) and kadhi (a yoghurt and chickpea-flour curry). Finally there’s the burfi station – a tray full of Indian sweets. There’s also chai (tea) if you ask for it. What’s most impressive is that the entirety of this cornucopia is donated, prepared, cooked, served and cleaned by volunteers. And, if you want to become more involved, you can even help out in the kitchen – provided you’ve bathed and are not intoxicated by anything… other than the desire to cook. Sri Guru Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Havelock Rd, Southall, UB2 4NP (020 8574 8901) Southall rail. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math This Hare Krishna temple is inside a converted house in east London. It’s open from 5am-9pm every day, and anyone is welcome (as long as they’re not in a ‘drunken state’) to join them for lunch or dinner, an invitation which attracts ten-15 people a day. It was Ekadashi when I went – a day of fasting from grains and pulses that takes place on the eleventh day of every fortnight. It’s believed that sin hides in grains on this day, and only three spices are exempt – salt, black pepper and cumin. As the food served on Ekadashi is far simpler than what would usually be eaten, the devotees seem rather apologetic. ‘It’s a day when we minimise all that doesn’t relate to meditation,’ explains Nyasi Maharaj. ‘We like food that is gently prepared and not too hot; foods that are sweet and milky, to stimulate a certain kind of consciousness and mellowness, called sattvick.’ It’s also the reason why they don’t use garlic or onions in their food. Not only does Krishna not like it but they’re also believed to evoke a kind of hyper-energy (called rajas) that’s counterproductive to meditation. All Hare Krishna food is vegetarian, and is offered up on the Hindu altar to Krishna before every meal, with a tulsi leaf from the ‘holy basil’ plant. We sit down to a mild, almost lukewarm, meal of pumpkin soup, vegetables, and apple chutney. There’s also silky mash and own-made paneer cheese, perfect in texture and flavour. ‘There are people who join the Hare Krishnas just for the cheese,’ jokes Jayagovinda Das, an Irish devotee who declares everything as being ‘very sumptuous’. They send me off with a small bag of burfi (Indian sweets). Admittedly, I’m not quite enlightened but I’m feeling pretty full. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, 466 Green St, E13 9DB (020 8552 3551) Upton Park tube.

No, sadly not mine!