shaheediyan

Thank you veer N3O, of course, that makes sense. Veer Fateh Singh Ji, I have heard of Namdhari men doing Indian Classical dancing , is this quite popular amongst Namdhari men or is quite rare, are the women also encouraged to learn dance? Is it something that Baba Jagjit Singh himself promotes (as they do tanti saaj)? And is it done purely for cultural reasons or for spiritual reasons as well? I heard that at Namdhari programmes, only Gurbani is sung in the main darbaar and there is a seperate tent for non-bani singing i.e. cultural, historical, poetry etc, is this true? Really like the idea of this respectful seperation but open minded attitude. Dhanvaad.

RUPZ Ji In my opinion, our Guru Sahibaan chose what is considered the the highest art form in order to enhance their and our spiritual experience, Music - but Music of the highest form, devotional worship - kirtan. The framework of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is based around the raag, rang, emotion, mood, tone of voice of our Guru's, it also indicates kirtan maryada that should be followed. So in this sense, Music is the paramount art, followed by Language/Poetry and the Martial Arts. I have not come across any history of our Guru Sahiban dancing. As with all things, without Vaheguru in our mind, all things are useless. No one can dictate to anyone else, as we are each responsible for our own actions. But in my opinion, dancing at a party is not really artistic or beneficial in anyway as usually one is surrounded by ego, lust, hate and nashaa. Folk dance is a different matter, and in the old days was done differently, bibian used to do giddha in female company only etc... men told stories through folk dance etc.... Todays bhangra in clubs and parties serves no real purpose. In a spiritual sense, Indian Classical has traditionally been performed as an expression of love to God, this is still practiced in South India as such. As you most probably know, shaster vidya is linked to Indian Classical dance (same way kirtan is to Indian Classical Music). As in many martial traditions around the world, martial art has been preserved in dance for various reasons i.e. in Thailand and South India, to preserve martial knowledge during many centuries of invasions and banning of all martial activity of natives. Fateh Singh Ji, Your post aroused my curiosity in outside expressions and I stumbled across this, I won't comment as the Baba Ji is a bajurg, as well as me not knowing anything about what they are experiencing, I think Baba Jagjit Singh ji is present also. What I will say is that Baba Ji has high stamina and the youngster in the end does not seem to have the same endurance. I would be grateful if you could explain to me the experience and history behind this physical expression, and from how long back it dates? I hope you are not offended by me posting this, unsurprisingly for an ignorent person like me, I was quite taken aback at 1st, but think there may be more to it than meets the eye, I believe that this sort of expression may be where the term kookai arose from? Vaheguru

Veer Fateh Singh Ji, Whatever anyone here or anywhere else says,"our" panth includes all denominations i.e. Nihangs, Udasi, Nirmallai, Adan Shaahi, Bhindraan, Bhai Randhir Singh Jathaa, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib, GNNSJ and others I can't recollect. They all believe in 1 Sat-Guru, Jadgi Jot Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - not "Who or What ever". On a material level, individuals may hold high respect for role models who have inspired them in their path/group. The diversity I was refering to - as you well know, refers to small historical or rehit traditions, which sad to say, many get obsessed by. Vaheguru

Dear Veer Ji, Firstly "my" panth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's panth, and it is very diverse, like it was created to be, please don't assume. Secondly, there is a difference between being liberal and being tolerant, compassionate, kind, wise and respectful. Showing outer expressions of faith does not constitute being materially obsessed. There is no need to delete your post, with Vaheguru Ji's grace, I humbly ask, please learn from it. Vaheguru

Veer Fateh Singh Ji, With all due respect, your satirical comments do not paint a very nice picture for you, nor do they do any favours for your representation of Namdharis on this forum. I pray Vaheguru blesses you with sukh shanti of mun. Naam-dhari is not a title to be taken lightly, a real Naam-dhari would not have so much hate and offence of such a large populous, of which you have only met a tiny fraction, and so have no right to stereo-type. Most "main-stream" Gursikh I know do not actually hold any emnity against anyone, and focus on their own jeevan and Guru, as I suggest you should. Some of the comments you make above I find offensive, especially the Mataa teking one which you can try and explain anyway you like. You are refering to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who hold the place of honour in the Gurdwara, and we place our mat in front of Guru Ji and ask for Gurmat, as well as giving our head to them - which personally is my expression to my Master that I belong to them - and abide my their hukum. Most Namdhari I know (famous ones) mathaa tek to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, with much pyaar. I do not now what your aim is regarding the dasvandh or karah prasaad comments. I am getting a little tired of this constant tirade by many members of this forum on the mainstream, all have good and bad. What is the difference between sites like Tapoban Sahib and here, none, when all everyone does is ridicule one another. I do a benti to agressors (be it comedians, academics, or those with personal issues), wise up and open your eyes to hankaar, which is the basis of these types of comments. I ask you to kindly take a minute to read my Satguru's very relevent words below: ਰੋਸੁ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਹੁ ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ros na kaahoo sang karahu aapan aap beechaar. Do not be angry with anyone else; look within your own self instead. ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਨਾ ਜਗਿ ਰਹਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ho-ay nimaanaa jag rahhu naanak nadree paar. ||1|| Be humble in this world, O Nanak, and by His Grace you shall be carried across. ||1|| & ਪਉੜੀ ॥ pa-orhee. Pauree: ਵਵਾ ਵੈਰੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਐ ਕਾਹੂ ॥ vavaa vair na karee-ai kaahoo. WAWWA: Do not harbor hatred against anyone. ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਮਾਹੂ ॥ ghat ghat antar barahm samaahoo. In each and every heart, God is contained. ਵਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿਆ ॥ vaasudayv jal thal meh ravi-aa. The All-pervading Lord is permeating and pervading the oceans and the land. ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਵਿਰਲੈ ਹੀ ਗਵਿਆ ॥ gur parsaad virlai hee gavi-aa. How rare are those who, by Guru's Grace, sing of Him. ਵੈਰ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਮਿਟੇ ਤਿਹ ਮਨ ਤੇ ॥ vair viroDh mitay tih man tay. Hatred and alienation depart from those ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਸੁਨਤੇ ॥ har keertan gurmukh jo suntay. who, as Gurmukh, listen to the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises. ਵਰਨ ਚਿਹਨ ਸਗਲਹ ਤੇ ਰਹਤਾ ॥ varan chihan saglah tay rahtaa. He rises above all social classes and status symbols, ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਕਹਤਾ ॥੪੬॥ naanak har har gurmukh jo kahtaa. ||46|| O Nanak, one who becomes Gurmukh and chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||46|| & ਪਉੜੀ ॥ pa-orhee. Pauree: ੜਾੜਾ ੜਾੜਿ ਮਿਟੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ॥ rhaarhaa rhaarh mitai sang saaDhoo. RARRA: Conflict is eliminated in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਤਤੁ ਨਾਮ ਅਰਾਧੂ ॥ karam Dharam tat naam araaDhoo. meditate in adoration on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the essence of karma and Dharma. ਰੂੜੋ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਿਓ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹੀ ॥ roorho jih basi-o rid maahee. When the Beautiful Lord abides within the heart, ਉਆ ਕੀ ੜਾੜਿ ਮਿਟਤ ਬਿਨਸਾਹੀ ॥ u-aa kee rhaarh mitat binsaahee. conflict is erased and ended. ੜਾੜਿ ਕਰਤ ਸਾਕਤ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥ rhaarh karat saakat gaavaaraa. The foolish, faithless cynic picks arguments - ਜੇਹ ਹੀਐ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ jayh hee-ai ahaN-buDh bikaaraa. his heart is filled with corruption and egotistical intellect. ੜਾੜਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ੜਾੜਿ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ rhaarhaa gurmukh rhaarh mitaa-ee. RARRA: For the Gurmukh, conflict is eliminated, ਨਿਮਖ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੪੭॥ nimakh maahi naanak samjhaa-ee. ||47|| O Nanak, in an instant through the Teachings. ||47||

http://niddar.blogspot.com/ Not what what Nihang Ji would have had in mind, had he wanted tostart a blog!

147 historical sites handed over to Punjab Date: 02/26/2007 Comment Email this Article News Source: http://www.punjabheritage.org LAHORE: After a long wait, 147 sites in Punjab have been handed over by the Federal Archaeology Department (FAD) to the Punjab Archaeology Department (PAD), PAD officials told Daily Times on Thursday. The officials said all formalities of the transfer related to the the Auqaf Department and FAD had been completed and a formal announcement would be made in a few days. They said the employees would also be transferred with immediate effect and PAD would set up separate departments for museums and havelis. The provincial government had been discussing the issue with the federal government since 1984. On June 2, 2001, President General Pervez Musharraf issued directives through the federal culture secretary that all sites be handed over to the provincial governments. Early in 2007, the Supreme Court of Pakistan also took up the issue and ordered the removal of encroachments from Punjab’s archaeological sites. The court also directed the FAD to hand over these sites to the Punjab government. The Supreme Court decided in favour of the provincial government because the sites looked after by the FAD were in very dilapidated conditions. The court said all encroachments at the sites or bordering them should be removed. A team has been formed to this effect. Many people have been living in some of the historical sites and they will be vacated soon, the officials said. They said the government would give the people money to shift elsewhere. The officials said that after these encroachments were removed, the restoration work on the sites would be launched and they would be banned for the public unless a large number of workers were hired to guard them. The transferred sites are: Attock District: Lala Rukh’s Tomb, Begum Ki Sarai, Saidan Baoli, Hatti, Hakim’s Tomb, Chitti Baoli, Attock Fort, Behram Ki Baradari, Tope and Monastery, Kallar or Sassi da Kallara, Site at Garhi, Inderkot mosque and a Buddhist site. Bahawalpur District: Abu Hanifa’s tomb, Uch Sharif, Bibi Jawindi’s tomb, Tomb of Nuria, Bahawal Haleem’s tomb, Musa Pak Shaheed’s tomb. Dera Ghazi Khan District: Ghazi Khan’s Tomb, Ther Dallu Roy. Gujranwala District: Baradari in Sheranwala Garden, Abdul Nabi Kotli’s tomb. Gujrat District: Akbari Baoli, Bahar Wali Baoli and Sheikh Ali Baig’s tomb Jhang District: Shahi Masjid, Shah Burhan’ tomb. Jhelum District: Rohtas Fort, the Ruined Temple with gateway, Raja Mansingh’s haveli, a hill 25 feet tall and 190 feet wide, Murti (Pind Dadan Khan tehsil), Two ancient temples, Bhagan Wala, the ruins of Nandana Fort, Sardar Hari Singh’s haveli, the ruins of Buddhist Stuppas, Satghara Temple. Khanewal District: Khalid Walid’s tomb and village. Lahore District: Ali Mardan’s tomb, Buddho’s tomb, Sarwala Maqbara, Hazuri Bagh, Dai Anga’s tomb, Shalimar gardens, Old Fort, Buddha Ka Awa, Ek Kos Minar, Roshnai Gate, Mirza Kamran’s Baradari, Dr Allama Muhammad Iqbal’s tomb, Dr Allama Muhammad Iqbal’s residence, Chauburji, Gulabi Bagh, Qutubuddin Aibak’s tomb, Tiled Gateway and two Bastions of Nawankot, Do Kos Minar, Tomb of Sheikh Musa Angar, Zaibunnissa’s tomb, Nadira Begum’s Tomb and Hauz, Hujra Mir Mehdi (Janazgah), Prince Pervez’s tomb, Nawab Bahadur Khan’s tomb, Javed Manzil, Jahangir’s tomb, Akbari Sarai, Asif Khan’s tomb, Noor Jahan’s tomb, Mohabbat Khan’s tomb, Samadhi of Ranjit Singh, Kharak Singh and Naunihal Singh, Anarakali’s tomb, Baradari and Samadhi of Sher Singh, Badshahi Masjid, Wazir Khan mosque, Chitta gate, the gate at northeast of Wazir Khan mosque, inside Delhi gate. Raja Dina Nath’s well, Masti gate, Bhatti Gate, Sheranwala Gate, Kashmiri Gate, Lahori Gate, Delhi Gate, Wazir Khan Hammam, Haveli Nau Nihal Singh, Khawaja Sabir’s tomb, French Officer’s daughter’s tomb, Wazir Khan’s Baradari, Bhai Wasti Ram’s Samadhi, a Mughal era’s tomb, Jani Khan’s tomb, Dai Anga’s mosque, the mosque with glazed tile work at Begumpura, Nawab Zakariya Khan mosque, Inayat Bagh, Angoori Bagh, Mariam Zamani mosque. Mianwali District: Sher Shah’s Baoli, a Buddhist stupa with near River Indus. Multan District: Sawi Masjid, Patrick Alexander Vana’s tomb, Rukn-e-Alam’s shrine, Shah Ali Akbar’s mother’s tomb, Shams Tabriz’s tomb, Shah Ali Akbar’s tomb, Shah Yousaf Gardezi’s tomb, Shah Hussain Saddozai’s tomb, Mai Meherban’s tomb, a ruined mosque at Village Sargana, Maryala mound. Muzaffargarh District: Tahir Khan Nehra’s tomb, Tahir Khan mosque and Sheikh Sadan Shaheed’s tomb. Rawalpindi District: A stupa (Tope), Pharwala Fort, Losar Baoli, Bhir Mound, Babar Khana, Kalawan site, Chirtope site, Sirkape site, Giri remains, Mohra Moradu, Rawat Fort, Nicholas column, Kos Minar, the Kos Minar near Golra railway station, Fraudgah-e-Shahan-e-Mughlia, Ratta Pind, mound at Harrappa, Mir Chakar’s tomb, Syed Daud Kirmani’s tomb. Sargodha District: Three temples inside Fort Amb, the site of ancient city, a red sandstone temple. Sheikhpura District: Sheikhupura Fort, Baoli and mosque, Jandilala Sher Khan, Mound Mian Ali Sahib, Tibba, Noor Muhammad’s tomb, Hafiz Burkhurdar’s tomb. Sialkot District: Tibba Jolian Sialkot. * Announcement will be made in a few days * Employees, offices and assets also transferred immediately Written by Hina Farooq, The Daily Times Saturday, 24 February 2007

Dear veer Tirath Singh Ji, Could I ask you what the traditional (historical) Nirmala, Seva Panthi and Udasi stance is on Anand Sahib? Dhanvaad.

Chatanga Ji, From what I have been told (and am sure it can be backed up by discussion with Akaali Bazurg today), during the turn of the century, sparring was done with shastar, not just amongst Khalsai akaarai, but also with the Muslim equivelants, and many a time a limb was cut or even chopped off. If the person survived and was able to, he would then learn from his victor, who was obliged to teach those he defeated as reward for the looser having the courage to fight in teh 1st place, I have heard Akaali Baba Santa Singh Ji, has seen (and spoken of) these bloody sparring sessions during his youth. RUPZ Ji, I accept that Sikh soldiers would have needed many years training to achive their divine standards, but what about when war was unexpected, or large losses were incurred, would there not then be a need for less well trained or even untrained Sikhs to pick up the sword to defend their families, panth, rights? For this common scenario, surely there would have been a shorter more direct method of training (albeit the soldiers not being anywhere near as skilled)? I may be wrong?

Could a kind veer/bhen, please direct me to the source of "Nanak Naam chardi kalaa tere bhane sarbat da bhalaa"? Dhanvaad. Vaheguru

Veer Chatanga Ji, Thats not really comparable, Nihang Ji's challenge doesn't include blowing up and decimating whole civilistions and cultures, whilst causing the deaths of hundreds of people on a daily basis. What exactly was the point of Holla Mohalla? How did the Khalsa's legendery fighting skills become honed to such perfection? It wasn't by gently play fighting with your friends or holding national sports competitions which restrict actual fighting by 90%. There had to have been realistic close to death sparring sessions in order to prepare one for real war? Even in the Chinese and Japanese martial traditions, Masters have fought each other in order to improve their skills, gain a higher understanding, highlight their weaknesses etc... It's very easy to have peaceful image of our history, but the truth is, the Khalsa instilled terror in the heart of their foes, with their ferociousness and mastery of fighting, historical references including Mughal ones state this. I cannot believe they fought with "shant" and smiles on their faces. In reality, one is not going to be much of a soldier if they have never faced death, or at least experienced a few bruises ? I do not have knowledge of the circumstances of these challenges so can't comment on them, but in my opinion, it would definately be for the benefit of the panth if higher level practitioners could learn from each other, and thus strengthen their own schools in doing so, and may be even develop a mutual respect and end hostility. I don't think the term "Had Thor" is a UK invention. As always, I would suggest rather than theorising on Forums, individuals who disagree with someones actions i.e. Nihang Ji's, should go their Akaara and ask them and challenge their thinking in person, rather than judging on Forums. Vaheguru

Brilliant post veer ji. Many people experience; or are scared of taunting or snidey ridicule in the work place. I have always experience this so called "fun" from a few individuals everytime I have started a new job. The thing to do is not fall into the trap of thinking "I'll give them a chance, correct them next time", every tinme you do this the aggressors/jokers just become more bold. Best thing to do is sort it out straightaway. I normally approach the person afterwards or there and then (depending on the level of rudeness), and ask them to come outside for a quick word. I will then explain in a polite but steadfast tone, the significane of the dumalla, quote a few words from Winston Churchill, relay a few facts re Word Wars 1 & 2, and Lucknow, explain the economic and cultural contribution of Sikhs to the UK, This nearly always ends the problem there and then, and a healthy mutual friendship develops. Just need to show them that the bravery and success of our community stems from our faith. Sometimes a really ignorent person will think it funny to touch your Dumalla after coming back to the office (slightly staggering) from the Christmas Lunch. In this case I have gripped the persons wrist "very" tightly, and calmy explained that my "turban" is very sacred, please don't ever even let the thought enter your mind again. You may then find the individual develops an instantaneous respect for your heritage and wants you to leanr everything about your faith. Other times, people ask why don't you cut your beard/kes (amid a funny terrorist comment), I simply explain - "your question is akin to me asking you to cut of your right arm, there is much, much higher probabilty to you agreeing to my request, than me to yours". This will take the humour out of their being, and then allow to me to explain in a little more detail, (knowing that they will listen attentively as I have their attention). But in all honesty, 95% of people are great, very open minded and happy to see someone living their life with principles that don't involve jumping on the 21st century cultural band wagon. The key is to have some basic historical and religious knowledge, and show full faith and confidence in your beliefs (and more importantly, have full faith and confidence in your faith). Vaheguru

I think there is definately a vanjaaran connection i.e. their mobile nature, salesmanship, fortune telling etc.

NEO veer ji, I agree with you. Unfortunately I see more sarcasm on this forum than any other, although I see a lot good points on this forum which I don't see on others also. It's a shame, their are so many people blessed with experience and knowledge here, who I learn so much from and am inspired so much by, but that is always let down by indirect sarcastic comments aimed at the mainstream/Singh Sabha/Tat Khalsa/AJK what have you. From personal experience I have met many beautiful Sikhs from these demonitations, the majority are just normal people, not hugely educated like some of the luckier members here, who have complete faith, pyaar and focus on Guru Ji, and lead happy lives. The funny thing is the very few children or very few misguided/fanatics who regular comments here are aimed, should be seen as representative of the whole community. In any case, if someone is narrow minded, ignorent, uneducated, fanatical etc... our response should be to show daya, not act in the same hankari way by posting sarcastic comments. May Vaheguru bless us all and help us to take the best from each other and show compassion and true universal brotherly affection to each other through kindness, compassion, understanding, discussion, politeness and acceptance. Below is the link from the "Tyar-bar-tyar News Network" aka the daily mail (sorry, this is just to show how un-suave sarcasm is). Vaheguru http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

There are a few bhaatrey Gurdwarai in the UK, I don't really know much about them except that they serve mass in the Gurdwara, including full English breakfast on Saturdays at one of them I have heard (Nottingham)! There are also some wierd practices like women can't face men, and in langar eat facing the walls, and can't face the kirtani etc (heard form a Bhenji who performed kirtan at the Norfolk Gurdwara a few years ago, and who refused to oblige).

Dear veer Niranjana Ji, You are quite right re the disparity. However in the below useful article, a common theme seems to be 5 - 5 pyare, 5 svaye, 5 paurian Anand Sahib, 5 palms of amrit, 5 repiticians of Gur/Mul Mantar etc... Anyhow, my limited opinion is that it is quite likely 5 paurian of Anand Sahib Ji were recited, but would still like to know where the 6 paurian tradition started, as it seems odd, each pauri is complete in it self, and continuous recitation stopping at the end of any pauri is also complete, but jumping and leaving out 80%, completing the last pauri and then mentioning Anand sahib in teh ardaas as is done in many Gurdwara after kirtan, doesn't make me feel comfortable, surely Anand Sahib, can only be Anand Sahib in it's entirety? ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥ anad sunhu vadbhaageeho sagal manorath pooray. How can our desires be fullfilled when we haven't even listened to Guru Amardaas ji's Anand Sahib? Saying or hearing this to my mind feels hypocritcal. I may of course be wrong about all this, which is why I am trying to find the story behind the 6 pauri version, it may be there isn't one. I am not trying to create a debate re this, each to their own, just pursuing my own little search. Vaheguru Which Banis did the Tenth Guru recite at the time of administering Amrit? -Principal Harbhajan Singh, Satnam Singh This information we have culled from Prof. Piara Singh Padam’s book ‘Rehatnamas’ and from the book on ‘rehat maryada’ published by the Chief Khalsa Diwan. Here to be brief, we will mention only different references given about the ‘banis’ recited/read at the time of administering ‘amrit’. Detailed information can be had from the concerned books. (1) Rehatnama Bhai Daya Singh (Piara): A good Sikh partakes of ‘amrit’ of Sri Amritsar. First, he reads or recites complete Jap ji, from the beginning to the end and the Chaupai. Which Chaupai (quartet)? (There is no indication.) He reads five different sawaiyas: 1. Srawag 2.Dinan Ki Pritpal 3. Papp smooh Binasan 4. Sat sdaiv suda brat, and 5 five stanzas of Anand Sahib. He stirs the ‘amrit’ with a kirpan towards himself. Then one Singh places a kirpan beside him. (Note: Here there is no mention of Jaap Sahib and complete Anand Sahib. There is however mention of stirring ‘amrit’ with a Kirpan.) (2) Bhai Chaupa Singh (Tenth Gurus’s Hazuri Sikh): Then the perfect Guru Sahib started testing the Panth. On the seventh day of Sawan, 1756 Sambat, the consecrated drink was sought to be prepared. Guru Sahib said, "Chaupa Singh, bring water in a bowl." When water was brought, Guru Sahib commanded, "Hold the ‘Khanda’ (double edged sword) and stir the contents of the bowl." Then all the five started reading out ‘swaiyas’ each. Which five? Daya Singh…. Sahib Singh…. Himmat Singh…. Dharam Singh…. Mohkam Singh…?. When these five Singhs started reading out ‘swaiyas’, then Sahib Chand Diwan made a request, "True Sovereign, if ‘ptashas’ (sugar bubbles) are put in the bowl, it will be better." In the meanwhile, Mata Shakti, Mata Sahib kaur, assuming the form of the ‘devi’ (goddess) put sugar bubbles in the bowl. The perfect Guru Sahib took five palmfuls and put them on the eyes, and five palmfuls in the hair. Then he recited the following ‘swaiya’ from the ‘Chandi Charitar’: "Deh Shiva war mohey ehay Shubh karman te kabhon na taron. Na daron ar siyon jab jaye laron nishchay kar apni jeet karon. Ar Sikh hon apne hi mann ko eh lalach han gun ton ochron. Jab aav ki audh nidhan baney At hi run mein tab joojh maron. [O God of power, bless me, That nothing deters me from gracious deeds. And when fight I must, I fight for sure to win. That I am instructed in wisdom only by my higher mind, That I crave ever to utter thy praise. When comes the end of my life, I die fighting in the thick of a (righteous) war’} Guru Sahib administered ‘amrit’ to the five Singh with his own hands. Next day, more Sikhs requested the Master that they too be administered ‘amrit’. He said, ‘prepare ‘Karah Parshad’ and have it from the five Singhs after reading ‘swaiyas’. [Note: This ‘Maryada’ (practice) too does not accord with any current practice or any other practice.] (3) According to Guru Bilas Patshahi Daswin: [Author: Bhai Koer Singh, p-128] It is considered to have been written in 1808 sambat, i.e. 1751 A.D. about 43 years after the passing away of the Tenth Guru] ‘Sarita jal leen achhoot mangaye kay, Patar loh mein tan prabh beray. Parhtey su udass hai mantron ko, Prabh thadhey hai app bhaiye so saverey.’ (p-25) [Note: Here there is only a mention of reading ‘mantra’ (mool mantra)] (4) Bansawalinama: [Genealogical Tree] of the ten Guru Sahibaan written by Bhai Kesar Singh Chhiber (11826 Sambat). According to this writing: Guru Sahib said: ‘Get a bowl of water at once.’ When it was brought, Guru Sahib gave ‘karad’ (knife) to a Sikh and asked him to stir the water in the bowl. Then Guru Sahib asked him to read aloud Japu Ji Sahib and Anand (Tenth part). Here it is worth nothing that Chhiber has used the word ‘karad’ instead of Khanda and has mentioned the reading out of two ‘banis’ ‘Jap’ and ‘Anand’. [sikh Sanskar atey maryada-Chief Khalsa Diwan, p-63] (5) History of the Sikhs, written by Khushwant Rai: 1811 sambat, i.e. 1754 A.D. In the peperation of ‘amrit’ there is mention of reading aloud only five swaiyas. (p-63). (6) Pracheen Panth Parkash, written by Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu, edited by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, published in 1941 A.D. Var Bhagauti, first pauri (stanza) swaiya No. 32, Tribhangi Chhand-Khag Khand. [Note: Here there is mention of reading of reciting three different ‘banis’, which are different from those that are read these days.] (7) ‘Suraj Parkash’ written by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji: Banis read at the time of preparing ‘amrit’ are: Jap Ji, Swaiyas, five stanzas of Anand Sahib. [Note: Here is no mention of reading out Jaap Sahib and Chaupai. Only reading out five ‘pauris’ (stanzas) of Anand Sahib have been mentioned.] (8) Guru Panth Parkash: {Giani Gian Singh), edited by: Singh Sahib Giani Kirpal Singh, p-1573}: ‘Jap Ji Sahib-5pauris, Jaap Sahib-5 pauris, Das Sudh, Anand Sahib, and Chaupai. [Note: Here is mention of reading out five ‘pauris’ each of Jap Ji Sahib and Jaap Sahib and this too is not clear which ‘Chaupai’ should be read out-the one in the beginning of ‘Akal Ustat’ "Pranvo aad ek nirankara" or the 27-pad kabiyo vach Chaupai from 377 ti 404 Chaupadas of Charitar No. 405 of ‘Charitro Pakhiyan’?] (9) ‘Gurbilas Patshahi 10’: written by Bhai Sukha Singh of Patna Sahib: The author has mentioned the reading out of some ‘mantras’ while preparing ‘amrit’. He has not mentioned the reading out of any particular ‘bani’ or ‘banis’. (10) ‘Guru Sobha; Likhari, Kavi Senapati (Singh): Guru Gobind Singh’s poet Laureate Senapati (Singh) in his book ‘Guru Sobha’ has not described any method of administering the ‘pahul of Khanda’ (consecrated drink prepared with Khanda-two edged sword). He has only mentioned the ‘kurehats’ (breach of Sikh code of conduct) like mundan (tonsuring), smoking hookah and having relations with ‘minas’ or ‘masands’. (11) Sri Kalgidhar Chamatkar, written by Bhai Vir Singh: Bhai Vir Singh Ji writes the following on page 27-28: "At the place where yesterday Sikhi was put to test, today there is a throne around which the devotees are sitting. ‘Karah Parsad’ (sweet pudding) for 1100 is kept on white sheets. On the throne is sitting Guru Gobind Singh Ji apparelled in white. Before him lies a shining steel bowl containing water with a two-edged sword in it. In front of him are standing the five Sikhs of yesterday, the liberated ones, who had offered their heads. They too are clad in white. Guru Sahib spoke to them-the five-"‘Waheguru’ is the ‘gurmantra’ chant it with perfect concentration." While the ‘Five’ got busy in chanting ‘Waheguru’, Guru Sahib himself started stirring the ‘Khanda’ in the bowl and reciting ‘banis’. Standing before the ‘Five’ who had offered their heads, he made one of them recite the ‘mool mantra’ five times. Then he gave him five palmfuls of ‘amrit’ sprinkled it on his eyes and put five palmfuls in his hair. In this manner he administered ‘amrit’ to the ‘Five.’ { Note: Here there is no mention of the ‘banis’ that were read or recited. The Five beloved ones too had been chosen a day before. Next day, one of them was made to recite the ‘mool mantra’ five times] (Based on the article published in the Khalsa Samachar of 6-13 April 2000).

http://www.sikhsangat.org/ssn/publish/Engl...ecruiters.shtml UK Police Soft on Islamic Student Recruiters Feb 22, 2007 - 3:53:01 PM Police are working with universities to clamp down on the practice of 'Aggressive Conversion' that has seen girls beaten up and forced to abandon university courses, announced Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. However, he was left red-faced as a storm erupted simultaneously over conversion tactics and alleged Racial and Religious hatred being spread at the Islamic Society at Coventry University. Police assured the community that it will take action against aggressive conversion techniques and intimidation being employed against girls by radical Muslim groups in university campuses. It was stated that those most at risk are Hindu or Sikh girls, who are especially vulnerable. This was announced on Wednesday at a conference organised by the Hindu Forum of Britain and the National Hindu Students Forum. At the same time, in Coventry University furore erupted within the Sikh and wider Indian community over how the Student Guild, an academic body, allowed an event which is in direct breach of UK legislation by inciting religious hatred in the Sikh and Hindu communities as well as racial hatred in the wider Indian community. It is alleged that in the meeting, a youngster called 'Aman Dhaliwal' (a former Sikh) announced he was no longer a Sikh and had now embraced Islam and strongly encouraged others to do likewise. Sources say leaflets and literature were distributed with the same intent. The same group of extremists have appeared at Islamic Societies across the UK. This is a flyer for an event distributed in Central London: Joanne Thomas, General Manager, claimed that "Coventry University Students’ Union is conducting a thorough investigation of this matter". The conversion tactics of extremists resembles a group called Al-Muhajiroun, which is currently underground in the UK. In previous years the group organised similair large events wherein previous non-Muslims would criticise and denounce their faith and exclaim why they embraced Islam. At the last official event organised by the group in 2004, similair furore was created and members of the Sikh, Hindu and wider Indian community peacefully protested in London against the incitement of hatred. Thousands of members of the BNP also protested although their protest was less peaceful. Islamic extremist groups have utilised University Islamic Societies for many years, with the Police and University authorities only talking but with little action in reality. Last November, Higher Education minister Bill Rammell stated University campuses had become focal points for Islamic extremism. Ramesh Kallidai, secretary general of the Hindu Forum of Britain said, "The Police and other agencies have no idea about the high levels of resentment building up in the Hindu and Sikh communities over aggressive conversion techniques and intimidation by radical Islamist groups on campuses. Families are breaking down, while some of our girls have been beaten up and had to leave university. We need to look at positive action rather than just speaking on these issues."

Sangat Ji, I am not posting this recent article which I read on Tapoban sahib to cause trouble, but simply to make the said Akaara's Nihangs on this forum aware as many accusations have been made against Nihang Ji. I do understand that this has probably occured on numerous occasions on numersous sites in the past, none the less, someone may feel the need to correct elements of which they have personal experience and feel are wrongly represented (of which there seem to be quite a few).! Vaheguru Niddar Singh and other individuals Author: Pwalla! Date: 02-21-07 14:07 Nidar ‘Singh’ and individuals Firstly daas would like to apologise for this article it will probably be a waste of daas’s time and also the sangat reading it, but it needs to be said; daas is 100% against this individuals. Sorry if this offends any one but we need to realise the facts about people against the panth. Nidar calls himself the “Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya Gurdevâ€. Sanatan meaning the most ancient, they believe that in the Khalsa Panth, people such as Udasis, Seva panthis, Nirmalas should be included but these people fail to follow Guru Gobind Singhs rehit. Agreed that the Udasis fought with Guru Gobind Singh ji Mahraj against the Rajas and Mughals but without rehit how can such people be called the Sikhs of the Guru? Rehitnama says: Ja Kee REHIT na janiya Gurbani, Tin Ka Bhojan Kai Keh Bisreh Har Kee Preet One who doesn’t follow the instructions of Guru’s Bani one will forget the love of God if there food is eaten. They call bhagats such as Bhagat Kabir ji a Muslim but they don’t have a clue about Bhagat Kabir jis bani. This is what Bhagat Jee says: Awsw ] aasaa || Aasaa: ihMdU qurk khw qy Awey ikin eyh rwh clweI ] hi(n)dhoo thurak kehaa thae aaeae kin eaeh raah chalaaee || Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths? idl mih soic ibcwir kvwdy iBsq dojk ikin pweI ]1] dhil mehi soch bichaar kavaadhae bhisath dhojak kin paaee ||1|| Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1|| kwjI qY kvn kqyb bKwnI ] kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee || O Qazi, which book have you read? pVHq gunq AYsy sB mwry iknhUM Kbir n jwnI ]1] rhwau ] parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoo(n) khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao || Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause|| skiq snyhu kir suMniq krIAY mY n bdaugw BweI ] sakath sanaehu kar su(n)nath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee || Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. jau ry Kudwie moih qurku krYgw Awpn hI kit jweI ]2] jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2|| If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2|| suMniq kIey qurku jy hoiegw Aaurq kw ikAw krIAY ] su(n)nath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai || If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? ArD srIrI nwir n CofY qw qy ihMdU hI rhIAY ]3] aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hi(n)dhoo hee reheeai ||3|| She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3|| Cwif kqyb rwmu Bju baury julm krq hY BwrI ] shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree || Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly. kbIrY pkrI tyk rwm kI qurk rhy pichwrI ]4]8] kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8|| Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8|| “Chatka Shastar Vidiya Ustad Nihang Nidar Singh†seems to be confused about Sikhi. They believe that a non-Amritdhari person is part of the Khalsa panth such as the Udasis, which is against Gurmat it self. These people look at history but they fail to realise what Guru Sahib’s says and also what Guru’s hukam is. They don’t follow Mahrajs hukam so how can they get liberation? One who hasn’t took Amrit hasn’t got a Satguru: suir nr muin jn locdy so siqguir dIAw buJwie jIau ]4] sur nar mun jan lochadhae so sathigur dheeaa bujhaae jeeo ||4|| The angelic beings and the silent sages long for Him; the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||4|| And what Guru Sahib says about those who haven’t taken this Amrit: ibnu siqgur mukiq n pweIAY mnmuiK iPrY idvwnu ] bin sathigur mukath n paaeeai manamukh firai dhivaan || Without the True Guru, the self-willed manmukhs do not find liberation; they wander around like lunatics. The work that the RSS is doing is confusing people with pictures such as the mool mantar with the OM sign and Guru Gobind Singh ji with the hindu demi-gods are respected as one, when it says in GurBani that; gur kI Bgiq krih ikAw pRwxI ] gur kee bhagath karehi kiaa praanee || O mortal being, what devotional worship have you performed to the Guru? bRhmY ieMidR mhyis n jwxI ] brehamai ei(n)dhr mehaes n jaanee || Even Brahma, Indra and Shiva do not know it. Niddar and others are comparing Guru Nanak – Guru Gobind Singh to these demi-gods and worshipping by bowing there heads towards these demi-god idols and respecting them at the same level as the true Guru. After reading the above Gurbani tukhs how can demi-gods such as Shiva, Brahama and Vishnu be at the same level as Guru Nanak dev ji when Guru Nanak Dev ji was Akal Purakh himself? gur goivMdu guoivMdu gurU hY nwnk Bydu n BweI ]4]1]8] gur govi(n)dh guovi(n)dh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8|| The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8|| Nidar is attracting the youth with his Santan Shatar Vidiya, but Sangat Ji how can this get you liberation if there is no Gurmat alive or Naam present, one who goes to Nidar will not be able to make a good Gursikh Jeevan and won’t be inspired to the basics such as wake up Amritvela and Jap Gurmantar. How can you when Nidar goes to the Mandir himself in the morning? If you want to be spending your time in the Mandir and bowing down to the Idols then that is up to the individual but it is NOT Gurmat (Guru teachings), and Guru Gobind Singh ji WILL NEVER GIVE YOU HIS DARSHAN. guru pUrw ByitE vfBwgI jn nwnk kqih n Dwvhu ]2]3]31] gur pooraa bhaettiou vaddabhaagee jan naanak kathehi n dhhaavahu ||2||3||31|| By great good fortune, servant Nanak has met with the Perfect Guru, and now, he will not go anywhere else. ||2||3||31|| Nidar supports the Udasis and Nirmalas also favours celibacy, another Hindu tendency, but how can he be challenging other gursikhs of the Khalsa Panth, he openly challenges Gatka Ustaads so that he can show off his Vidiya and proves that he is stronger then other Naam Kamai gursikhs, but this person is clever. He believes that the Sikhs moved away from the 'pluralistic' Hindu tradition under the influence of the Singh Sabha movement, my friend you are very confused. He would appear to be more of a Gursikh if he spent his time fighting against the external threats to the Panth but instead he is an external threat. vYr ivroD imty iqh mn qy ] hir kIrqnu gurmuiK jo sunqy ] vair virodhh mittae thih man thae || har keerathan guramukh jo sunathae || Hatred and alienation depart from those who, as Gurmukh, listen to the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises. How can these people be anywhere when they haven’t realised the above truth. Going to such places and learning off such people will only bring hatred into your hearts towards other Gursikhs which is not a good thing. As Gursikhs we should have love for each other. Gursikh’s like Bhai Keniya had love for even the enemy mughal forces and yet people like Niddar hate even the site of a Gursikh who wears bana and challenges them to fights. haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ] houmai naavai naal virodhh hai dhue n vasehi eik t(h)aae || Ego is opposed to the Name of the Lord; the two do not dwell in the same place. It is not right for someone to call them self Sanatan Sikhi and go around challenging other Gursikhs. The above Gurbani tells us that where a Gursikh has ego, Guru’s Shabad doesn’t dwell there. Niddar goes around and only his website challenges Gursikhs, this is pure ego as he wants to show he is the best. This evidently shows he hasn’t got no Gursikhi Jeevan, no devotional worship of the true Guru, and only a martial artist, where as Guru Sahib has told his Sikhs to be the Gursikh who has the fundamentals of Sikhi such as Nimerta, piyaar for other Gursikhs, Rehit etc and at the same time being a brave warrior who knows martial study. A Gursikh told daas about the time when he challenged Nidar, they met up at a park. Nidar at first told one of his students to fight, when bhai sahib and Nidars chela had a Hadh Thor match (breaking of bones), the gursikh sent him to hospital, bhai sahaib also had injuries but he soon recovered, then it was Nidars turn as soon as they met Nidar hugged the Singh and sweet talked the Singh also refusing to fight. A few other Gatka Usttads have also challenged him but he backed down, some from India. A few of Daas brothers have also seen a few videos with Nidar losing against other gurikshs, its because they have jeevans they read bani and jaap naam, where as Nidar takes drugs and eats meat, bows to Idols, follows the Baman tradition, which is totally against sikhi itself. This is pure Bipran Kee Reet. Only Gursikhs who strive to stay away from such Reet (ways) are blessed with Sant-sipahi, whilst the ones who go into Birpran Kee Reet (the ways of the Bamans or other ways) loose all Tej-prataap (power and strength). Guru Gobind Singh has said this. jb lg Kwlsw rhy inAwrw ] qb lg qyj dIau mYN swrw ] So long as Khalsa retains his distinct identity, I will give him my entire radiance and strength jb ieh ghY ibprn kI rIq ] mYN n kroN ien kI pRqIq ] But if he should take on a non-Sikh way of life, then I shall have no confidence in him and withdraw my support and protection. Evidently, from the above lines from Sarbloh Granth we can see that Niddar has choosen the path of Hinduism whilst putting a display of a Sikh. He has no true strength as he hasn’t remained distinct as a Khalsa. I would like to do a benti to gursikhs out there, who are falling in to the trap of Nidar and his followers. Please restrain from going to his classes, a lot of gurikhs have said to daas that we should learn his Vidiya and not get in to what he says, but this is not possible, there have been individuals who thought the same but now because of the sangat they did with Nidar (which has a big influence on ones jeevan) it changed their ways such as; eating meat, drinking alchohol, cutting hair, doing drugs. Which is totally against Gurmat. ku~Tw hu~kw crs qmwkU ] gWjw topI qwVI KwkU ] ien kI Er n kbhU dykY ] rihqvMq so isMG ivsyKY ] kut(h)aa hukaa charas thamaakoo || gaa(n)jaa ttopee thaarree khaakoo || ein kee our n kabehoo dhaekai || rehithava(n)th so si(n)gh visaekhai || Meat, opium, drugs and tobacco. Ganja, wearing hats, another's woman and alcohol. He who never even gazes at these evils. Recognise them as my disciplined Singh. The above is Rehitnama by Bhai Desa Singh. Even if they believe in meat then there is their own view but why do they do other things such as have immoral relationships with girls, go to clubs, drink alcohol, eat KFC meat, and other activities which are only to fulfil their desires, which is not what Guru Sahib wants. Example:- A Bibi in Coventry UK, started to go to Niddar’s lesson to gain vidiya. Niddar put his views forward and confused the Bibi. This Bibi who was once a Keskhee adorned, Amritdhari Bibi has now gone to a faithless way of living by changing her appearance, smoking, drinking, and flirting with men at clubs. Similar occurancies have happened WITH A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE! Daas saw an incident when Nidar came to challenge a Gursikh, he would not abide by the rules, he said he wanted a Hadh Thor match where one wins over breaking the other persons bones. This is full of Hankar (ego), which a sikh doesn’t have. If another Sikhs challenges another gursikh shows the bad karam that this person has, show off how much you want Nidar when the Jamjooths come and grab you by the hair, then you will be crying for help. Later on supporters of Niddar and gursikhs from the Panth got in to a fight, which was very disheartening. Nidaar in his Jakkare in his ardaasa puts down other gursikhs, in his jakare he makes mockery of other Gatka Jathe and Gursikhs. iPkw boil ivgucxw suix mUrK mn Ajwx ] fikaa bol viguchanaa sun moorakh man ajaan || Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind! There is a sakhi of Guru Har Gobind Sahib ji going to a destination with his Sikhs, on the way they find that a snake has come in front of the guru. The guru smiled but the Sikhs got worried and asked if they could destroy it before it harms any one. Guru Sahib just told them to wait, a few minutes later the snake burst. Out of the snake insects came out. The Sikhs asked the guru what does this mean, the guru replied that this snake was a fake Guru in his last life and the insects were eating him from inside were his slaves, he came to mahraj to pardon his mistakes. You will see that these kinds of people like Nidar will have to suffer but he will take the people that are with him, so why are we destroying the chance we got for a Vidiya, over the happiness of the guru. Shastar Vidiya is good but what point is there of such a vidiya which will destroy your chance to meet with the Guru and become one with Waheguroo, which ideally is the only reason we are here. BeI prwpiq mwnuK dyhurIAw ] bhee paraapath maanukh dhaehureeaa || This human body has been given to you. goibMd imlx kI ieh qyrI brIAw ] gobi(n)dh milan kee eih thaeree bareeaa || This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe. Avir kwj qyrY ikqY n kwm ] avar kaaj thaerai kithai n kaam || Nothing else will work. imlu swDsMgiq Bju kyvl nwm ]1] mil saadhhasa(n)gath bhaj kaeval naam ||1|| Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1|| Niddar is trying to make an organisation of people spreading this Manmat views and trying to split the Panth, he has also gone to other countries to spread his views. A few Gursikhs from Glasgow poured their heart to daas and shared there feelings, they found that this cult is destroying their sangat and the people they love. Nidar is harming the panth and the people that daas loves, this is why daas has taken some time out and wrote the sangat the things that are in daas heart. I beg you please stay away from such a person, who will only bring your Sikhi down. Daas is not sacred of telling the truth, daas is only scared of the almighty God, but daas cannot take no more from such a dusht of the panth, if people want to put daas down then that is your blessings to me. Please do ardaas for Niddar and his followers because there is no benefit for them in Dharga (court of god) Daas has pity on you! IT IS NOW THE SANGATS CHOICE; WE CAN FOLLOW WHAT OUR POORAN (PERFECT) GURU SAYS, OR THESE INDIVIDUALS WITH MANMAT VIEWS, WHICH WILL LEAD US TO A WASTED LIFE. STUDY GURBANI, WHAT DOES OUR GURU SAY? WHY ARE WE HERE? mwieAw kwrin DwvhI mUrK log Ajwn ] maaeiaa kaaran dhhaavehee moorakh log ajaan || For the sake of Maya, the fools and ignorant people run all around. khu nwnk ibnu hir Bjn ibrQw jnmu isrwn ]28] kahu naanak bin har bhajan birathhaa janam siraan ||28|| Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, life passes away uselessly. ||28|| Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh!

Veer Ji, This is really weird!!! I don't mean the Rastafarians, I mean that you post this today, let me explain: My dear Bhenji (A French/African 3HO), who kindly taught me and my wife yoga for a while, was having lunch with us just the other day. She gave us some great news, that she is she is going to buy a large 16 acre plot near in North Jamaica overlooking the sea and surrounded by many, many types of plant, fruit and fauna (Banana, Avacado, Rasberry, Lemon etc...). She is going to (Vaheguru willing) open a Yoga retreat and hopefully Guru Ghar one day in the future, to serve the local deprived community by ways of simran, kirtan, yoga, health and spiritual discourse (Gurbani based), as well as run it as a business for eco-health tourists. She was facinated by Rastafarians and they were by her also (as she wears keski). Many asked her about her faith and were hooked!! She was similarly struck by many similarities in their outlook to life, to add to Freed Jis comments, as well as strict vegetarians "rehitvaan" Rastas are also tee-total, they do not drink alchohol (as she was told). They have a very loving, open minded, oneness, universal attitude towards others, and are very charitable, some really poor Rasta lok, even gave her many bags of fresh fruit and veg, as she was new to the area and they wanted her to eat good food, she was obviously taken a back by their kindness (they like to help strangers/new people). Obviously their hair is very spiritual to them also. Bhenji told me their is a world of difference between Rastas in the UK (esp London) and those rehitvaan ones in Jamaica (although you get a few fakers there also). Irrelevent of what one thinks of King Selesi and his prophecies, real Rastas are very nice and moralistic people, and you never know, in a few years time when Sikhs start visiting the beautiful sea, mountains and forest retreats of North Jamaica for memorable Puratan Kirtan smagams, who knows what how many Jamaican brothers will be hypnotised by Guru Ji's divine words and sounds of their divine saaj..... On another note I am trying to find out the name of the Udassi, Sadhu or maybe normal Indian man who struck a close friendship with King Selesi, and from whom the King discovered bhang and it's apparent use as a meditational substance, this Sadhu may have also influenced the King in other matters such as meat and drink.... If anyone has a thread or knows any resource re this person, I would be much obliged if you could share! Vaheguru

Veer ji, The issue isn't about what you choose to believe, it's about looking at people as individuals, understanding their circumstantial upbringing and remaining focused on your own path whilst accepting Guru ji's hukum and diversity; and learning all you can from all the elements that have inherited different gun of our Kalgidar paatshah, whilst staying true to your own beliefs. Vaheguru

Veer Ji, Why so angry? No one is disucssing Budda dal, only a soon to be released book which may contain valuable historic information which may be insightful for those of us that are interested in our history. Vaheguru

Veer Chatanga Ji, Could you kindly explain 3 things to me please: 1 - The Namdhari tradition is 150 years old, older than many of the Jathaas claiming long lineages, there have been numerous generations of Namdhari born and raised in their version of the faith, that has been their education and their history, how is it the fault of these innocents that they beleive what they have been taught by their mother, father, teacher and Namdhari Guru? How can we condemn these people for no fault of their own? 2 - How about the putatan Sikh traditions the Namdhari have kept alive i.e. uncut NITNEM, simplicity (clothing etc), wedding costs (only they as a complete group still do not allow dowry and are happy to marry 15 couples in one go and save langar costs to the poorer families), Guru's kirtan tradition...etc.... should we not give them credit for having kept alive strictly some of our Guru's traditions? And should we not try and learn these traditions to share amongst the greater panth... 3 - What is your solution to "your" Namdhari problem? Consider this, tomorrow, when Baba Ram Singh Singh Ji Namdhari does not return, and their is a chance that Namdhari want to assimilate back to the wider panth and accept Satguru as their Guru, will they do so if the wider panth is filled with hate against them for a decision made by someone 150 years ago? Or would it be better to keep a civislised open dialogue with them and be confident in Satguru's kirpa, that Sat-Gursikh sangat will bring our brothers to Satguru's charan once again? (The above are personal views, I am not debating Namdhari Guru Jagjit Singh Ji's legitimacy, I respect Baba Ji for his gigantic effort in keeping kirtan maryada (and other Gur-maryada) alive, but beleive in and am obedient only to my Satguru - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj).

Pyare veer Chatanga Ji, This was not a debate about peoples personal views, and they are irrelevent here. I am not saying that Nihang Nidder Singh Ji is antarjami, no one is, that does not mean discount all their knowledge. The book will contain evidence backed research, not simply his own views, but those of the remaining Akali Bajurg and their consolidated know how, alongside many years of hard researched and fact based evidence taken from genuine historical records. Nihang Singh Ji's view on Bindra Mehta are of no consequence and not the topic of discussion. I am sure if anyone is so passionate about their jathaa and it's lineage as Nihang Singh Ji is, they will dedicate there life, research, provide and preserve knowledge in the form of academic research, in order to ensure future generations of Sikh youth have a true picture of the past. Personally I am not as interested in the Budda Dal element (although very interesting) as I am in viewing glimpses of Sikhs of the old and their habits, jeevans, actions... for these little fact based insights will be of benefit to the panth as a whole and us as individuals, who mostly try and preserve and understand our Guru's traditions. Vaheguru

Nihang Niddar Singh Ji's book should be out this summer. It will be preety amazing, as many years of research has gone into it (irrelevent of what individuals think of him), he hs interviewed many Akalis Nihang Bajurg from all around India to attain and preserve as much oral tradition as possible. Oral tradition should not be shunned, it is through oral tradition that many aspects of Sikhi have survived i.e. Raag Vidya, Shastar Vidya, Santhia etc.. although some efforts were made in literacy, for the amount of knowledge contained within the Sikh traditions, they were miniscule. Vaheguru

Beautiful. I do ardaas that your journey is as beautiful as your initial search and discovery. Be warned, within the remits of the panth, there are negative people, negative practices, hypocrisy, ego imbued intelligence and division, do not be perturbed by this, as in this way Sikhi is no different to other faith movements, but focus on and pray to meet Guru's real children within this world and panthic web, Vaheguru never, ever, disappoints. In my experience no "section" of the panth, traditional or modern holds completeness, Guru's diversity has spread amongst his children, try not to get caught up in any patriotism to any jathaa or samparada, just focus on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. on your own journey (through history and research) and individuals (rather than their historic group or lineage). When you meet (you may already have done so), true Sikhs, in who's actions, words and eyes you see Guru, the negative elements encountered will no longer recide in your thoughts. I pray Vaheguru parm-atma blesses you in your path.